Full Preterist Safe House
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If that's true Kemosabe, then you should be able to show PROOF/EVIDENCE AND DOCUMENTATION to me that these things happened when David Defeated Saul:
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Samuel 22:8-16)
Show us the PROOF and DOCUMENTATION that God was seen Shaking the entire heavens and earth, starting fires with His breath, shooting arrows, Riding through the sky on a Cherub, laying the foundations of the entire earth and sea bare at the time David Defeated Saul, as David said.
David Says it happened.
SHOW ME THE HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION Roby...
Surely somewhere in the History Books this worldwide shaking of heavens and earth, with God appearing on the clouds for all to see, would be recorded by in the history books, right?
I mean, if what you claim about the need for EVIDENCE is true?
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The whole of 2 Samuel 22 is the words of a SONG Dave wrote. Then, as now, songwriters have "artist's license". Just as today's songs have many nonsensical lyrix, many ancient songs also did. Several of the Psalms have the same type of wording.
Dave was using "artist's license" in that song as well. The "Song of Solomon" does so also.
Dave was using "artist's license" in that song as well. The "Song of Solomon" does so also.
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LightandTruth
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I can't imagine why you would make this statement when it is extremely clear in both the Book of Acts AND the historical firsthand eyewitness account of Josephus in his "Wars of the Jews" that EVERY event prophesied DID take place, literally, during that period between Christ's death/resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.
The fact that you clearly are not aware of this reality doesn't make it any less true and real.
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LightandTruth
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Excellent response! I would include in that the apocalyptic descriptions of the historical destruction of the empire of Babylon which uses the very same figurative, dramatic language found the Book of Revelation to describe Babylon's fall. None of those things happened in physical terms, but the figurative elements accurately described that empire's eternal destruction.
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LightandTruth
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Just because you reject the fact that the ancient Hebrew prophets used similar "artistic license" in their prophetic figurative imagery and language doesn't mean that it's not true. They also spoke in figurative language such as using "heavens and earth" to identify various societal groups in a civilization. The "heavens" were the spiritual and religious leaders and the "earth" were the common people or "lay people". When the "old heavens and earth" passed away, the old civilization was destroyed to be replaced by a new civilization - the "new heavens and earth". When ancient Israel was destroyed forever in 70 AD, the "new Israel" in Christ Jesus (spiritual Israel) was fully manifested and established forever. WE are the "new heavens and earth".
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No, not one of the eschatological events have yet occurred.
Proof?
The world goes right on, as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD.
Jesus said He'd return in great power & glory IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. Obviously, neither has yet happened !
No amounta re-defining of Scriptures will cover up those FACTS !
Proof?
The world goes right on, as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD.
Jesus said He'd return in great power & glory IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. Obviously, neither has yet happened !
No amounta re-defining of Scriptures will cover up those FACTS !
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LightandTruth
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Just because you, personally, disagree with the figurative nature of the Biblical terms "heavens and earth" and "world" doesn't mean that you're correct roby. There's nothing "obvious" about the return of Jesus Christ in judgment and glory supposedly being a non-event historically. It DID happen in reality and it's an infinitely factual event. We should celebrate it every summer as a Christian holiday and celebration greater than both Christmas and Easter.
I have news for you roby (and you don't understand this because you are not a First Century Christian) - the "world" did NOT go on as it was prior to 70 AD. The destruction of the Israelite "world" in 70 AD had a huge impact and that "world" ceased to exist. We NOW live in the "new heavens and earth" - the spiritual Kingdom of Heaven. Whether you accept that or not that's between you and God. I'm not going to argue any further with you.
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No use arguing - without PROOF, you LOSE.
Again, the world goes right on as it did then. what was accomplished in AD 66-70 was the "days of vengeance" Jesus prophesied against that generation of Jews.
The Jews received MUCH-GREATER punishment for the murder of Jesus, beginning 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land. For over 1800 years, jews were hated & persecuted wherever they went, culminating in the nazi holocaust.
Study a little history. JESUS HAS NOT YET PHYSICALLY RETURNED! That's quite-obvious! So, saying He has, is NONSENSE, the very thing Jesus warned us against! He made it plain there'd be no mistaking His return for anything else ! So much for your bunk !
Again, the world goes right on as it did then. what was accomplished in AD 66-70 was the "days of vengeance" Jesus prophesied against that generation of Jews.
The Jews received MUCH-GREATER punishment for the murder of Jesus, beginning 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land. For over 1800 years, jews were hated & persecuted wherever they went, culminating in the nazi holocaust.
Study a little history. JESUS HAS NOT YET PHYSICALLY RETURNED! That's quite-obvious! So, saying He has, is NONSENSE, the very thing Jesus warned us against! He made it plain there'd be no mistaking His return for anything else ! So much for your bunk !
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Jack Terrence
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Jesus did not say that. He said that after that tribulation there would be more distress.
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Jack Terrence
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Matthew 24:29, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
This clearly shows that the signs in the sun and the moon and the stars after the tribulation are accompanied by more distress upon the earth. So after the tribulation there is more distress upon the earth. Then they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.
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Well, actually, it shows the EFFECTS of the trib.
And you didn't go on to V30.
Natural light will be obscured by smoke & dust of the plagues that had struck, including a huge earthquake.
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FredVB
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The Boxer said:
Well Jesus will return personally. Acts 1:10-11, And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
Many things prophesied have happened already. But more things of what were prophesied still come.
"Upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth" These are such things that are coming now, which many are just starting to see, with the climate change with warming and arctic ice more rapidly melting, the sea level rising, with some islands having sunk already, and more of severe storms.
Mystery Babylon must be considered, it has not fallen yet. What is shown for it in passages is indicating it is much greater than one city, that would never have as much attention, by merchants in the prophecy or by the scripture passages for the fall of it being such a great event. Not even that for a church or a religion would be. The characteristics shown of it correspond to what there is in the history of all great cities, it is characteristic of all civilization, starting from Babel. Yahweh was not promoting or endorsing civilization which humanity came up with, contrary to what Yahweh told for Adam and Eve for them and their descendants. Civilization is not godly, it is godless, God's people need to be called out from this Mystery Babylon.
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How did He go "into Heaven"?
Hidden from their eyes by a Cloud, according to Acts 11:9:
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Jesus was not accompanied by an angelic army when he ascended.
Is His return to be "in Like Manner"?
Jesus did not Hand out any rewards or punishment when He ascended.
Is His return to be "in like manner"?
Only the Apostles saw Him go.
Is His return to be "in Like Manner"?
Where does scripture teach you which attributes of the Acts 1:9-11 ascension are to be "in like manner" as His return, and which won't, as it appears you already believe that many of those attributes present in the ascension will in fact NOT be "in like manner" as His return...
So what scripture teaches you to pick and choose which ones will be and which ones won't be?
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FredVB
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FredVB said:
parousia70 said:
What are you arguing with me about? You are evidently seeing much more said than I ever said here. I referred to a Bible passage. Are you arguing against what is said from the passage? It says Jesus will come again to the earth in like manner as he went up. You say then that he won't. Right? So you say that passage is wrong? In like manner does not mean entirely in the same way, anyway. And I was not saying anything there about an army. But maybe you are picking which scripture passages to acknowledge and which to not.
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Let's look at "like manner". Now, how did He leave? He simply ascended. The observers saw Him til he entered a cloud. So, how will He return ? He will simply DESCEND. Difference will be, He will be in His full power & glory, will be seen by all, even those who pierced Him, from hades, & He will be accompanied by all the saints.
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FredVB
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robycop3 said:
Christ will return on the Mount of Olives, as he ascended, fulfilling prophecy shown in Zechariah in the end on that occasion about Yahweh coming and setting foot on the Mount of Olives, in the end at a battle against God and God's people at Jerusalem. Christ as Yahweh in the prophecy will return to the same location coming from heaven, to the Mount of Olives. An army from heaven is not shown to be definitely the saints returning to earth. You know that there is an angelic army, right? When are those of that army going to be of use?
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