Was the Sabbath given to man at creation as a special day to worship God?

pasifika · May 5, 2020

Studyman said:
That is a very good question. I will let Paul answer it for you.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

This is the answer to your question according to Paul.

I don't believe God destroyed men for transgression of HIS Commandments that HE didn't give them. God chose to wait until after the first book in the Bible to enumerate HIS Laws, Judgments, Statutes and Commandments for us. But Noah knew some of them. He knew God's creation of clean and unclean animals, his sons knew not to look on the nakedness of their father. All parts of God's Laws that were not written down yet. I think Noah knew God's Laws, Statutes, Judgments and Commandments but respected the true God. While the masses rejected the true God. This theme runs through the entire Bible.

I think every person ever born has end times, and death comes as a thief in the night. Jesus told a story about 10 virgins. They all claimed belief in the bridegroom, but they were not all prepared when HE came. It took 120 years to build the Ark. Many men would have known of Noah's plight. They just didn't believe him. We have this life to come clean with God.

I think the Levites and Pharisees are a perfect example of men who knew the Law, but didn't believe in the God who created it.

satan knew the Christ, Judas knew the Christ, even partook of the Last Supper. Yet neither of them are like HIM. Jesus said whosoever comes to Him must first "Deny them selves". This might mean walking away from the religion one is born into, like Peter did. This might cause chaos and divisions within our own families and friends. A cost many are simply not willing to pay.

God is Spirit, His Law is Spiritual. How can you separate the two?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

And again;

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And who was this Jesus? Was He not the Word of God which became Flesh?

Not harsh at all. We are all tasked with checking the spirits. I don't want anyone to listen to me, but I hope they might look into the scriptures and consider the questions I pose.

And to be honest, I don't know for sure. I believe HE is in me. But so does everyone on the planet who calls Him Lord, Lord. Have I exalted myself to the point of believing I can't be deceived? No, I know better than that. How can I know for sure if HE is in me? Should I trust my own vision? Or should I trust the Holy Scriptures for this answer?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Is this not the race that is set before us?

Thank you for taking the time to reply, appreciated...so, in 1Corinthians 10:1-11, the children of Israel had given what is necessary to know their God, but yet a lot of them perish (judgement) in the wilderness. Was that because of God or them?

So, even those in the days of Noah had few commandments to follow compared to the commandments given in Sinai but it was enough to bring Gods wrath on the entire world at that time through the flood...my point is was it through the law that we turn away from our evil ways or through His Spirit that makes live according to His ways and do good....
A good example of that is the Pharisees and the Levite you have mentioned, that they know the law But they don’t believe in God, so knowing the law doesn’t make you to know God, but rather if you know God then you will live like Him (Righteous) and He gave us His Spirit 1Corinthians 2:10

Yes, God is Spirit and His law is spiritual and we cannot separate them, but we are already separated from God because of our sins..so He promised us that He will gives us His Spirit so He can put His law in our minds and write them on hearts..

klutedavid · May 6, 2020

Studyman said:
But didn't the Law and Prophets prophesy of the New Covenant? So when Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil". This would mean that the Law and prophesies given in the Prophets still stand, YES? So the promise of a New Covenant is just as valid as the Promise of the Messiah. So if not one serif cannot pass from the Law and Prophets, then both the Messiah and the Creation of the New Covenant is Law.

So what does this Law and Prophets that Jesus said would be here as long as heaven and earth is here say the New Covenant is?

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

Ok here it is, this is the Creator of the New Covenant defining for us what HIS New Covenant is. Here is the source we can trust, and as it is written "Let God be true".

After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

But you just said "the law of Moses has been annulled by the new covenant".

But the Creator of the New Covenant says God's Laws are not annulled, in fact just the opposite, HE will write them on the hearts of HIS People.

So who would you advise men to listen too?

So lets examine the Creators new Covenant.

How did folks receive God's Laws in the Old Covenant? God didn't write them on the hearts of HIS People then, so how did folks receive God's Laws?

Ex. 28:1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons. (Tribe of Levi)

Does the NT confirm this?

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

So then according to the creator of the New Covenant, in the Old Covenant Levite Priests administered God's Laws to the people. But according to the same God, in the New Covenant we no longer receive God's Laws by going to a Levite Priest as the Old Covenant demands by Law. We have a New and Better ministry. A pure, incorruptible High Priest that will write HIS Laws on our minds.

What else does the Creator of the New Covenant tell us about HIS New Covenant?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

How is this possible if there is only one Book of the Law sitting in the Ark, where it is unlawful to even touch if you are not from the tribe of Levi, at risk of death?

But if the Christ, from the Tribe of Judah, becomes the High Priest, then the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi on Israels behalf, has become old and obsolete.

So what do we have today? Is God's Word available to me without finding a Levite Priest to read it to me? How about that? God's Word is in every motel, every library, every book store, on the internet. In fact, God's Word is available to every person on the planet to study and learn from, one on one, in the comfort of our own homes. From the least to the greatest we can all know God. But of course, that is what the Creator of the New Covenant promised, is there any doubt? "Let God be True".

And what about the last part of His New Covenant?

for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How were transgressions of God's Commandments forgiven in the Old Covenant?

Lev. 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.

16 And the priest that is anointed (Levite) shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

But in the New Covenant there is no Levitical Priesthood sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law" for atonement. God forgives their sins HIMSELF by sending HIS own Son who shed HIS own Blood once and for all. No more Levitical Priesthood "Works" for justification.

Does the NT confirm this?

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, (forgiveness) through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? ( Levitical Priesthood Law of atonement) Nay: but by the law of faith. (Belief in the Word of God which became Flesh)

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (of Atonement)

I respectfully disagree with your teaching "the law of Moses has been annulled by the new covenant" because of what the Creator of the New Covenant tells us. He should know, it is HIS New Covenant.

If the law is fully valid, then all sacrifices and offerings continue in the temple, the authority of the Levitical priesthood still stand. The temple is front and center in our life, we Gentiles stand in the Gentile courtyard.

The health laws, the food laws, the dress laws, civil laws, are all in full force. Everyone will be circumcised. Not one letter, one serif, will pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

You can't have the law half switched on, it is either on or off.

The decision is yours.

Cribstyl · May 6, 2020

klutedavid said:
Are you saying that Abraham knew of the death and resurrection of the Christ?

That is the core of the gospel.

Paul tells the Colossians that Christ was a mystery to the O.T folk.

Colossians 1:26
That is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints.

You need to have a long and deep think about what you think the gospel message is.

Bob is creative, he will most likely say that the law is part of the gospel by posting Gen 26 with added commentary.

BobRyan · May 6, 2020

pasifika said:
Appreciate your response, so why do you think God made two covenants through Abraham (Isaac, Jacob and their descendants ) and Abraham descendants in Sinai? Instead of one covenant...

I think he gave details specific to each case.. such as with Noah and the rainbow and not flooding the entire planet again. But those agreements were not intended as a replacement for the gospel itself.

BobRyan · May 6, 2020

Cribstyl said:
Bob is creative, he will most likely say that the law is part of the gospel by posting Gen 26 with added commentary.

Or more likely he will point to it in the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and say that the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 IS in fact "the NEW Covenant". That would be my bet.

Studyman · May 6, 2020

pasifika said:
Thank you for taking the time to reply, appreciated...so, in 1Corinthians 10:1-11, the children of Israel had given what is necessary to know their God, but yet a lot of them perish (judgement) in the wilderness. Was that because of God or them?

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Paul said those that fell in the wilderness are "Examples" of men not making the choice God instructs them to make, and the consequences of those choices, "to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted".

Paul said what happened to them are examples written for us. Did God make them choose rebellion? Or did HE just record their actions? Given I am 61 and have lived for awhile, I can easily see that God wouldn't have to make me rebel against Him or lust after lawlessness.

I'll let you answer that question for yourself.

So, even those in the days of Noah had few commandments to follow compared to the commandments given in Sinai but it was enough to bring Gods wrath on the entire world at that time through the flood...my point is was it through the law that we turn away from our evil ways or through His Spirit that makes live according to His ways and do good....

You assume God's Judgments didn't exist before Sinai. I don't.

Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

my point is was it through the law that we turn away from our evil ways or through His Spirit that makes live according to His ways and do good

God's Law is Spirit, and Life. Jesus said:

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

What leads us to repentance, if it isn't God's Word? How do we even know we have sin if it were not for God's Word. You seem to be trying to separate God's Words from God's Spirit.

I don't believe it is even possible to do that. And why would I want to?

A good example of that is the Pharisees and the Levite you have mentioned, that they know the law But they don’t believe in God, so knowing the law doesn’t make you to know God, but rather if you know God then you will live like Him (Righteous) and He gave us His Spirit 1Corinthians 2:10

Who are the "Princes of this world"?

Who is it that the Christ of the Bible teaches will receive HIS Spirit of understanding?

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And again;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the (Princes of this World) world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

How come did Zechariahs and Simeon know the Christ when HE came to them, but the Pharisees didn't? How did they know the mysteries of God hidden from the Princes of this world, but the High Priest didn't?

Did God pick their name out of some secret lottery and give them HIS Spirit, while withholding HIS Spirit from those whose names didn't get drawn? Or is it that God created time itself, and holds it in HIS Hand like a snow globe, and can see the end from the beginning, and can see the choices men from the Choice that is sets before them, make from the foundation of the world?

Yes, God is Spirit and His law is spiritual and we cannot separate them, but we are already separated from God because of our sins..so He promised us that He will gives us His Spirit so He can put His law in our minds and write them on hearts..

So then, according to the Holy Scriptures, who is it that God gives HIS Spirit to? Does He give HIS Spirit to everyone who says Lord, Lord?

I have answered almost every question you have asked as honest as I can. Please return the kindness and answer the few questions I have also asked you..

Studyman · May 6, 2020

klutedavid said:
If the law is fully valid, then all sacrifices and offerings continue in the temple, the authority of the Levitical priesthood still stand. The temple is front and center in our life, we Gentiles stand in the Gentile courtyard.

If we are going to have a conversation, then you need to read my replies, and then bring me questions about it.

If you are just here to promote some religious doctrines or traditions, then please be honest and say so. I won't waste my time with posting what the God of the Bible actually says.

[QUOTE
The health laws, the food laws, the dress laws, civil laws, are all in full force. Everyone will be circumcised. Not one letter, one serif, will pass from the law until all is fulfilled.[/QUOTE]

If you really believed this, then you would also know that the Priesthood Covenant with Levi was promised by the Law and Prophets to come to an end. So if no serif will pass from the Law and Prophets, then the Levitical Priesthood must end.

But the Priesthood itself never ends. It was just changed so that someone other than a Levite could hold the office. Heb. 7: 11-15

You can't pick and choose which of Word's of God you choose to respect, and which Word's of God you choose to reject., it is either on or off.

The decision is yours.

Studyman · May 6, 2020

BobRyan said:
Or more likely he will point to it in the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and say that the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 IS in fact "the NEW Covenant". That would be my bet.

LOL,

Or Bob could quote the following.

Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

or

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

or

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

or

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

That Bob :wave:

BobRyan · May 6, 2020

Studyman said:
If we are going to have a conversation, then you need to read my replies, and then bring me questions about it.

Like!!

Now there's a thought!

Cribstyl · May 6, 2020

BobRyan said:
Or more likely he will point to it in the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and say that the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-9 IS in fact "the NEW Covenant". That would be my bet.

Nice deceptive moves Bob, but in my opinion, you ran yourself into a corner. Paul's letter to the Galatians is primarily an argument to say that the law is not that one gospel.
I don't have to run all over the bible with questionable commentary and isolated texts as you do. If Jesus chose Paul as an apostle to preach the gospel to the gentiles, where should I search to learn about the gospel? Verses from each chapter of Galatians to prove my argument that the gospel is not the law.
Chapter 1 argues
Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
Gal 1:7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Chapter 2 argues
Gal 2:21“I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Chapter 3 argues
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Chapter 4 argues
Gal 4:21 ¶Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Final Chapter 5 argues
Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

..................................................................................
About Jer 31
Jer 31:31¶ “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32“not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,
Jer 31:33“But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Pointing to the prophecy about the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 does not present all that the New Covenant or the gospel entails.

The fact is, Heb 8 gives us more information about the New Covenant than Jer 31.

6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
(Jeremiah does not say; Better covenant, Better promises)
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
(Jeremiah doesn't explain the problem with the first covenant was with the people, because they couldn't keep the law)
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord. (Somehow you're claiming that the same covenant God said it wont be like, will be written on the hearts. that's contradictory)
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
(The NT writer does not say "my law" to identify the 10 commandments, it say "my laws" to identify whatever God commands each individual heart)
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. (Jeremiah doesn't explain that the Old Covenant would be obsolete. So by using Jer 31 you attach the Old Covenant (the law) to the New Covenant.)

klutedavid · May 6, 2020

Studyman said:
If we are going to have a conversation, then you need to read my replies, and then bring me questions about it.

If you are just here to promote some religious doctrines or traditions, then please be honest and say so. I won't waste my time with posting what the God of the Bible actually says.

[QUOTE
The health laws, the food laws, the dress laws, civil laws, are all in full force. Everyone will be circumcised. Not one letter, one serif, will pass from the law until all is fulfilled.

If you really believed this, then you would also know that the Priesthood Covenant with Levi was promised by the Law and Prophets to come to an end. So if no serif will pass from the Law and Prophets, then the Levitical Priesthood must end.

But the Priesthood itself never ends. It was just changed so that someone other than a Levite could hold the office. Heb. 7: 11-15

You can't pick and choose which of Word's of God you choose to respect, and which Word's of God you choose to reject., it is either on or off.

The decision is yours.[/QUOTE]But someone other than a Levite held office before the law even began. Melchizedek received tithes from Abraham while the Levite was in Abraham's loins.

Nothing changed regarding the High Priest Himself, who is of the order of Melchizedek. The Levite priesthood was a temporary human administration. You could even say that this Melchizedek was Christ Himself before the incarnation.

You must face up to the fact that the law is switched off now.

All the OT was but a mere shadow.

The true light now shines and Christ is that light.

pasifika · May 6, 2020

BobRyan said:
I think he gave details specific to each case.. such as with Noah and the rainbow and not flooding the entire planet again. But those agreements were not intended as a replacement for the gospel itself.

So it was the Gospel that was intended for all mankind...

Andre_b · May 6, 2020

God said this before giving the 10 Commandments:
Deuteronomy 5:3 “The Lord >>made not this covenant with our fathers<<, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.”

I know in Genesis it says that the 7th day was sanctified and made holy but clearly Deut 5:3 says that this specific covenant was not made with the fathers which then a few verses later reads the 10 commandments following. It seems there were separate covenants.

Doesn't this say that the 10 commandments were not there prior to Moses including the 4th? I know we see examples of some of the 10 commandments, and the 4th is shown in Exodus 16 right before 10 commandments with the manna as the first time we see it clearly.

The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers. It seems pretty clear. How do we reconcile this?

YouAreAwesome · May 6, 2020

BobRyan said:
Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel -- not many.
Gal 3:8 says the Gospel was preached to Abraham.

Galatians 3:8 (msg):

Is it not obvious to you that persons who put their trust in Christ (not persons who put their trust in the law!) are like Abraham: children of faith? It was all laid out beforehand in Scripture that God would set things right with non-Jews by faith. Scripture anticipated this in the promise to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed in you.”

Studyman · May 6, 2020

="klutedavid, post: 74965309, member: 343781"

But someone other than a Levite held office before the law even began. Melchizedek received tithes from Abraham while the Levite was in Abraham's loins.

Nothing changed regarding the High Priest Himself, who is of the order of Melchizedek. The Levite priesthood was a temporary human administration. You could even say that this Melchizedek was Christ Himself before the incarnation.

You must face up to the fact that the law is switched off now.

All the OT was but a mere shadow.

The true light now shines and Christ is that light.

You preach "Nothing changed regarding the High Priest Himself"

But the Scriptures say:

"For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are (Already) priests that offer gifts according to the law:

And again;

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

No disrespect, but I'm sticking to the Holy scriptures.

Jesus said:"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and Prophets". Yet the very foundation of the religion you are promoting is founded in that very "thought".

Many teach that God's Word in the Holy Scriptures can't be trusted anymore. But Paul certainly didn't think so.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And neither did Jesus;

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And again:

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I disagree that Jesus turned God's Law off because HE said just the opposite. I don't believe Jesus destroyed HIS Father's definition of sin. It is clear you have been convinced that HE has so it would be vain to continue.

I do appreciate the discussion though.

pasifika · May 6, 2020

Studyman said:
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Paul said those that fell in the wilderness are "Examples" of men not making the choice God instructs them to make, and the consequences of those choices, "to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted".

Paul said what happened to them are examples written for us. Did God make them choose rebellion? Or did HE just record their actions? Given I am 61 and have lived for awhile, I can easily see that God wouldn't have to make me rebel against Him or lust after lawlessness.

I'll let you answer that question for yourself.

You assume God's Judgments didn't exist before Sinai. I don't.

Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

God's Law is Spirit, and Life. Jesus said:

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

What leads us to repentance, if it isn't God's Word? How do we even know we have sin if it were not for God's Word. You seem to be trying to separate God's Words from God's Spirit.

I don't believe it is even possible to do that. And why would I want to?

Who are the "Princes of this world"?

Who is it that the Christ of the Bible teaches will receive HIS Spirit of understanding?

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And again;

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the (Princes of this World) world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

How come did Zechariahs and Simeon know the Christ when HE came to them, but the Pharisees didn't? How did they know the mysteries of God hidden from the Princes of this world, but the High Priest didn't?

Did God pick their name out of some secret lottery and give them HIS Spirit, while withholding HIS Spirit from those whose names didn't get drawn? Or is it that God created time itself, and holds it in HIS Hand like a snow globe, and can see the end from the beginning, and can see the choices men from the Choice that is sets before them, make from the foundation of the world?

So then, according to the Holy Scriptures, who is it that God gives HIS Spirit to? Does He give HIS Spirit to everyone who says Lord, Lord?

I have answered almost every question you have asked as honest as I can. Please return the kindness and answer the few questions I have also asked you..

Thank you, Ezekiel 36:27, state that God is the one who put His Spirit in His people to make them to walk according to His ways..so there is also a spirit that makes people disobey Him continuously.

I didn't say there wasn't judgement before Sinai, the world in the time of Noah was judge and Noah and His family were saved...

Yes, God's law is Spirit, but is Not the law that needed saving it's the people who are under the power of sin...so the law cannot impart life to us who are Dead in our sins. It was the Spirit who gives life to our bodies....

So you do know the things we learned about God are not earhly things but heavenly wisdom...so why some knows and others don't? Isn't it because you must be taught by someone who comes from heaven?

The Lord knows those who are His...

Cribstyl · May 6, 2020

Andre_b said:
God said this before giving the 10 Commandments:
Deuteronomy 5:3 “The Lord >>made not this covenant with our fathers<<, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.”

I know in Genesis it says that the 7th day was sanctified and made holy but clearly Deut 5:3 says that this specific covenant was not made with the fathers which then a few verses later reads the 10 commandments following. It seems there were separate covenants.

Doesn't this say that the 10 commandments were not there prior to Moses including the 4th? I know we see examples of some of the 10 commandments, and the 4th is shown in Exodus 16 right before 10 commandments with the manna as the first time we see it clearly.

The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers. It seems pretty clear. How do we reconcile this?

Welcome, Is it possible that God alone created everything in six days and rested on 7th day of creation? He then blessed and sanctified the 7th day of creation (not the 14th day, 21 day, 28th etc.)
Truth be told, God entered His rest on His throne in the Heavens when He was finished all His work. God's rest cannot be defiled by man, but the Sabbath can be defile by man. Sabbath is a sign of who He is (The God who created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day.) Why would God make Sabbath an exclusive covenant with the Children of Israel if the world was obligated at creation to keep the Sabbath?
heb 4 is the continuation from Gen 2:3, it tells us that God's rest remains as a place to enter.

Neh 9 gives a chronology from creation and tells us when God gave the law, statutes, commandments and Sabbath. (I don't normally make long posts)

Neh 9:6

You alone are the LORD;
You have made heaven,
The heaven of heavens, with all their host,
The earth and everything on it,
The seas and all that is in them,
And You preserve them all.
The host of heaven worships You.
Neh 9:7

“You are the LORD God,
Who chose Abram,
And brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans,
And gave him the name Abraham;
Neh 9:8

You found his heart faithful before You,
And made a covenant with him
To give the land of the Canaanites,
The Hittites, the Amorites,
The Perizzites, the Jebusites,
And the Girgashites—
To give it to his descendants.
You have performed Your words,
For You are righteous.
Neh 9:9

“You saw the affliction of our fathers in Egypt,
And heard their cry by the Red Sea.
Neh 9:10

You showed signs and wonders against Pharaoh,
Against all his servants,
And against all the people of his land.
For You knew that they acted proudly against them.
So You made a name for Yourself, as it is this day.
Neh 9:11

And You divided the sea before them,
So that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land;
And their persecutors You threw into the deep,
As a stone into the mighty waters.
Neh 9:12

Moreover You led them by day with a cloudy pillar,
And by night with a pillar of fire,
To give them light on the road
Which they should travel.
Neh 9:13

“You came down also on Mount Sinai,
And spoke with them from heaven,
And gave them just ordinances and true laws,
Good statutes and commandments.
Neh 9:14

You made known to them Your holy Sabbath,
And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws,
By the hand of Moses Your servant.
Neh 9:15

You gave them bread from heaven for their hunger,
And brought them water out of the rock for their thirst,
And told them to go in to possess the land
Which You had sworn to give them.
Neh 9:16

“But they and our fathers acted proudly,
Hardened their necks,
And did not heed Your commandments.
Neh 9:17

They refused to obey,
And they were not mindful of Your wonders
That You did among them.
But they hardened their necks,
And in their rebellion
Neh 9:18

“Even when they made a molded calf for themselves,
And said, ‘This is your god
That brought you up out of Egypt,’
And worked great provocations,
Neh 9:19

Yet in Your manifold mercies
You did not forsake them in the wilderness.
The pillar of the cloud did not depart from them by day,
To lead them on the road;
Nor the pillar of fire by night,
To show them light,
And the way they should go.
Neh 9:20

You also gave Your good Spirit to instruct them,
And did not withhold Your manna from their mouth,
And gave them water for their thirst.
Neh 9:21

Forty years You sustained them in the wilderness;
They lacked nothing;
Their clothes did not wear outNeh 9:22

“Moreover You gave them kingdoms and nations,
And divided them into districts.Neh 9:23

You also multiplied their children as the stars of heaven,
And brought them into the land
Which You had told their fathers
To go in and possess.
Neh 9:24

So the people went in
And possessed the land;
You subdued before them the inhabitants of the land,
The Canaanites,
And gave them into their hands,
With their kings
And the people of the land,
That they might do with them as they wished.
Neh 9:25

And they took strong cities and a rich land,
And possessed houses full of all goods,
Cisterns already dug, vineyards, olive groves,
And fruit trees in abundance.
So they ate and were filled and grew fat,
And delighted themselves in Your great goodness.
Neh 9:26

“Nevertheless they were disobedient
And rebelled against You,
Cast Your law behind their backs
And killed Your prophets, who testified against them
To turn them to Yourself;
And they worked great provocations.
Neh 9:27

Therefore You delivered them into the hand of their enemies,
Who oppressed them;
And in the time of their trouble,
When they cried to You,
You heard from heaven;
And according to Your abundant mercies
You gave them deliverers who saved them
From the hand of their enemies.
Neh 9:28

“But after they had rest,
They again did evil before You.
Therefore You left them in the hand of their enemies,
So that they had dominion over them;
Yet when they returned and cried out to You,
You heard from heaven;
And many times You delivered them according to Your mercies,
Neh 9:29

And testified against them,
That You might bring them back to Your law.
Yet they acted proudly,
And did not heed Your commandments,
But sinned against Your judgments,
‘Which if a man does, he shall live by them.’Neh 9:30

Yet for many years You had patience with them,
And testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets.
Yet they would not listen;
Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
Neh 9:31

Nevertheless in Your great mercy
You did not utterly consume them nor forsake them;
For You are God, gracious and merciful.
Neh 9:32

“Now therefore, our God,
The great, the mighty, and awesome God,
Who keeps covenant and mercy:
Do not let all the trouble seem small before You
That has come upon us,
Our kings and our princes,
Our priests and our prophets,
Our fathers and on all Your people,
From the days of the kings of Assyria until this day.
Neh 9:33

However You are just in all that has befallen us;
For You have dealt faithfully,
But we have done wickedly.
Neh 9:34

Neither our kings nor our princes,
Our priests nor our fathers,
Have kept Your law,
Nor heeded Your commandments and Your testimonies,
With which You testified against them.

Cribstyl · May 6, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Galatians 3:8 (msg):

Is it not obvious to you that persons who put their trust in Christ (not persons who put their trust in the law!) are like Abraham: children of faith? It was all laid out beforehand in Scripture that God would set things right with non-Jews by faith. Scripture anticipated this in the promise to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed in you.”

Amen, There are a few so-called teachers here that abuse part of this verse say the gospel is part of the law.

YouAreAwesome · May 6, 2020

Studyman said:
Many teach that God's Word in the Holy Scriptures can't be trusted anymore.

Really? Which posters in this thread teach the Bible can't be trusted? I am of the understanding we all believe the Bible can be trusted, but rather, we interpret a few things differently.

Cribstyl said:
Why would God make Sabbath an exclusive covenant with the Children of Israel if the world was obligated at creation to keep the Sabbath?

Good point. He says the Sabbath is a sign between Himself and Israel but if the sabbath was instated at creation then one must assume at least some other people would continue to keep it. Exodus 31:12-17

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

“‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Cribstyl said:
heb 4 is the continuation from Gen 2:3, it tells us that God's rest remains as a place to enter.

Another good point.

Andre_b · May 6, 2020

Romans 6:14-15 “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

Was the Sabbath given to man at creation as a special day to worship God?

Did Adam and Eve keep each seventh-day Sabbath?

Yes

No

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