Israel GOD'S time clock ?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

They also say that the state we call Israel today was created by God. Yet it was secular non-Christian Jewish Zionists with a goal to create a homeland for the Jews who started the Zionist movement in the late 1800's. After the end of WWI, which saw the land then called Palestine fall into the hands of the British, Lord Balfour promised part of the land which thousands of years before had been called "Judea and Samaria", to the Jews.

The United Nations (hardly "God") finally agreed to partition Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state in 1947, leaving most of the land allotted by God to the Jews (Judea) and Samaria out of "Israel" (the West Bank). Yet they say it was the hand of God?

Jerusalem, in terms of the 1947 U.N resolution, was also to be an international city belonging to neither state, and governed by the U.N. When the Arabs who lived in the "Israeli" part of Palestine revolted, the war which ensued between the Jews and the Arabs resulted in who knows how many thousands of Palestinian Arabs fleeing "Israel" and others being kicked out by the Israeli army.

That war became called Israel's "War of Independence" by guess who? The Jews. The Arabs don't call it that. It certainly wasn't their "war of Independence".

The united Nations is not God and in creating a Jewish state while ignoring the population demographics and the protest of the Arabs living there and the Arab world in general, the U.N created a huge mess that the finest diplomats of the world have not been able to sort out until now.

So is this all God's doing? If God brings His people back into the land they would, I would think, first have to acknowledge their Messiah? Is God going to bless the state after 70 years or 100 years or 500 years while they remain in unbelief and in rebellion against God through their continued rejection of their Messiah?

If Israel is a time-clock of anything, it's a time-clock to Armageddon. Just because God allows man to do what man purposes in his heart to do, doesn't mean that it's God doing it.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Yes I agree that just as Judah and his brothers who had sold Joseph into slavery at Judah's instigation were forgiven by Joseph, who is a Biblical type of Jesus, so we will see the prodigal son return and the other brother who had served his father all the years becoming angry and jealous when a great banquet is held in honor of the prodigal son,

and I agree that Joseph revealed to Judah and his brothers who he was the moment Judah showed remorse and repentance for what he had done to Joseph, by offering to become Joseph's slave instead of Benjamin, because of Judah's angst regarding what it would do to Jacob if they returned without Benjamin. Joseph had to bring a great deal of pressure on them before that happened, though.

Judah had been a scoundrel and had brought a great deal of harm to his father and his father's house even after the harm he brought when he was the instigation of the sale of Joseph into slavery in Egypt. But not all Judah's descendants were scoundrels like Judah was - king David was a man after God's own heart and there was always a handful who remained faithful to God, just as in the days of the apostles. Judah's descendants also fared better in this regard than the house of Israel which was exiled and scattered among the nations even before the Babylonian captivity of the Jews.

I agree that Romans 11:25-33 is talking prophetically about what you think it's talking about.

But I do not agree that the creation of Israel or the state called Israel is God's clock. He never brought them back and is not bringing them back because they are in unbelief, and they forced their way back in unbelief, and in unbelief are determined to bring their "Messiah" about. ("We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! We want Moschiach now!") - the chant of many Orthodox Jews.

So they will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecies their way and every time they do this, they will say that it's God fulfilling His Word.

... and many Christians will keep falling for it.

PS: I also want the prodigal son to come home.

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Cbowles said:

The whole chapter discusses exactly what your talking about. Romans 10:21 Romans 11:1

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Cbowles said:

I simply believe Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.

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brian57 said:

They say that Israel is Gods time clock and they have always added 70 years onto 1948 , however 2018 came and went. But Psalm 90:10 says , ( The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty. ) Now given that we now live longer due to modern tech and meds , I personally would have taken the 80 years.

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Love how you put God in your own little box. So God can't use whomever He wants, UN included? BTW, if you say God had no hand in creating Israel, then by definition you can't say He destroyed it in 70 AD through the pagan Romans either...

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Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Love how you put God in your own little box. So God can't use whomever He wants, UN included? BTW, if you say God had no hand in creating Israel, then by definition you can't say He destroyed it in 70 AD through the pagan Romans either...

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Cbowles said:

I simply believe Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

How can it be when Judaism broke off from the true faith of Abraham?

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

When God's hand is involved in saving Israel from its enemies and ushering in the millennium and bringing people back into the land, believe me, you will completely stop having God in your little box. Right now you have God in the little boxes of Rabbis and secular powerful Jews called Zionists.

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Cbowles said:

Jesus fulfilled that true faith, He is the seed in whom all nations are blessed.

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Cbowles said:

The Hebrew people of Israel are returning to the nation of Israel.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Exactly, so if that's the fulfillment of Judaism, how come Judaism don't agree with you?

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Yes. THEY are returning. God isn't bringing them back (spot the difference).

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Oldmantook said:

Your argument is a logical fallacy. God did destroy the temple via the Romans but that does not necessarily mean that He has to use human means to gather Israel to himself. In fact he has not created modern day Israel as that is he work of Zionists.

Zionism is man's efforts to establish the Jewish State - not God's. Present day Israel is the result of man's will - not God's will being done. How do we know that?

We know that the tribes of Israel were scattered among the nations because of their disobedience. Yet to this day, Israel remains disobedient to God and does not recognize Jesus Christ/Yeshua as her Messiah. Israel is a secular nation and even the observant Jews among them do not acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah - the Son of God - their Savior. So how could God who scattered the Jews because of their disobedience return the Jews and have established Israel in 1948 in spite of her continued disobedience?

Deut 29:25-28 And the people will answer, ‘It is because they abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. They went and served other gods, and they worshiped gods they had not known—gods that the LORD had not given to them. Therefore the LORD’s anger burned against this land, and He brought upon it every curse written in this book. The LORD uprooted them from their land in His anger, rage, and great wrath, and He cast them into another land, where they are today.’
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;
Jeremiah 4:1 If you will return, O Israel, return to Me,” declares the LORD. “If you will remove your detestable idols from My sight and no longer waver,
Jeremiah 31:36 “If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever.”
Isaiah 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;
Ezekiel 37:21-28 you are to tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘I will take the Israelites out of the nations to which they have gone, and I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over all of them. Then they will no longer be two nations and will never again be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols or detestable images, or with any of their transgressions. I will save them from all their apostasies by which they sinned, and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever. And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is among them forever.’”

God's promise to the Jews of a homeland is and always has been conditional - based upon their obedience. Does this reflect the spiritual state of Israel today? Hardly. Therefore Zionism is by man's efforts - both politically and militarily - not to be confused with God's will, done according to His timing alone.

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Cbowles said:

How do you know that?

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Give me evidence that God is bringing them back and that it's not them choosing to go back.

Also give me evidence that what I say is untrue when I say that the only reason they are able to choose to go back in the first place, is because of the success of the goal of non-Christian Zionists who decided they are going to force their way back into the land without God "fulfilling" it for them, and then claim that it's all God's doing, while all the time they plan to force the "fulfillment" of the coming of (their) Messiah too, and to build a temple which will be an insult to God and His true Messiah.

Give me evidence and I'll point you to an organization of thousands of Orthodox Rabbis in New York who say the same thing I do regarding the fact that they have forced their way back into the land and it's not God who has done it.

Thousands of Jews around the world disagree with your view.

Having said that, I don't hold anything against the state called Israel (because it's as iegal as any state recognzsed by the U.N as a sovereign state) and I certainly hold nothing against any of its Arab and Jewish people who live in it. They're caught up in history just as the Germans who hated Hitler were in the 1930's and 40's.

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Cbowles said:

Because the fullness of the gentiles has yet to be fulfilled.

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Oldmantook said:

Your argument is a logical fallacy. God did destroy the temple via the Romans but that does not necessarily mean that He has to use human means to gather Israel to himself. In fact he has not created modern day Israel as that is he work of Zionists.

Zionism is man's efforts to establish the Jewish State - not God's. Present day Israel is the result of man's will - not God's will being done. How do we know that?

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Cbowles said:

The evidence that I have is my faith, because I know God will fulfill His promises.

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