[Catholics Only] How would you explain this to a Libertarian?

I reckon it would depend on what a new galaxy formation would look like to him. Or if his image-in-nation has conceived of a new possibility. According to natural and divine law seems reason-able to me.

Fenwick said:

I have a friend at work that I hang out with while we're on our break, we're the only people in our department who share the same political views and somewhat similar religious views (he's evangelical) so there's an added sense of camaraderie and kinship there. However, while we're both conservative, he's a conservative Libertarian so he basically feels that the concept of free will dictates that no government or entity should act to prohibit sin and vice.

If I'm off base on this description let me know, but as I understand it the Church teaches society should be rightly ordered according to Natural and Divine Law. This, among other things, means that things like sin and vice are, at worst, are difficult to access and, at best, entirely eradicated. As such things like abortion and drug use would be completely and totally illegal.

Assuming I'm correct on this understanding, how would you go about explaining that to someone who has libertarian-evangelical sensibilities?

I think his viewpoint is typical of evangelicalism inasmuch as it has no concept of the social kingship of Christ, they believe there's no point to establishing moral and virtuous societies in this life because it's all going to be destroyed in the end anyway, so it necessarily kicks the can down the road (to the apocalypse).

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Have you considered that your friend doesn't believe the law can stop sin or make people be righteous?

Fenwick said:

I have a friend at work that I hang out with while we're on our break, we're the only people in our department who share the same political views and somewhat similar religious views (he's evangelical) so there's an added sense of camaraderie and kinship there. However, while we're both conservative, he's a conservative Libertarian so he basically feels that the concept of free will dictates that no government or entity should act to prohibit sin and vice.

If I'm off base on this description let me know, but as I understand it the Church teaches society should be rightly ordered according to Natural and Divine Law. This, among other things, means that things like sin and vice are, at worst, are difficult to access and, at best, entirely eradicated. As such things like abortion and drug use would be completely and totally illegal.

Assuming I'm correct on this understanding, how would you go about explaining that to someone who has libertarian-evangelical sensibilities?

I think his viewpoint is typical of evangelicalism inasmuch as it has no concept of the social kingship of Christ, they believe there's no point to establishing moral and virtuous societies in this life because it's all going to be destroyed in the end anyway, so it necessarily kicks the can down the road (to the apocalypse).

Click to expand...

It's a good question. Certainly the Church sees the government as a moral agent in a way that more or less follows Aristotle's political philosophy, and libertarians see the government as a necessary evil that should be as limited as possible, which especially includes moral legislation. (I wouldn't say libertarianism and evangelicalism are necessarily connected, though at times they go together)

There is room for nuance in the Catholic view, though. For example, St. Thomas famously follows St. Augustine in arguing that certain evils such as prostitution should be tolerated by government lest greater goods be forfeited (ST IIa IIae, Q. 10, A. 11).

Honestly I would recommend just conversing with your libertarian friend to better understand each other's views, not least of all because everyone is different. For me, though, libertarianism struggles because 1) the social and moral sphere is just inherently tied to the legal sphere, 2) law invariably does have a significant influence on societal morals, 3) there is no such thing as moral neutrality in law, and 4) our government is so large, encumbered, involved, and pervasive that there is no realistic way to get back to a libertarian small-government model; therefore the dichotomy between secular morality and Christian morality is particularly acute in our day and age.

From a Christian perspective it's not at all clear why political life would be opaque to the gospel, or why God's grace would suddenly stop and not be able to enter into the political structure. Sure, libertarianism and especially classical liberalism say otherwise, but from a Christian perspective all of creation is porous to God's grace.

Fenwick said:

Assuming I'm correct on this understanding, how would you go about explaining that to someone who has libertarian-evangelical sensibilities?

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Personally, I'm inclined to the notion of fake it till you make it. In a society with laws oriented around the Church's moral/social teachings, there are some who will obey out of personal conviction. They will conform their lives to these teachings because they believe them to be right.

Others will conform to these teachings in order to uphold social conformity. Without getting specific, we see everywhere in society right now people who pay lip service to issues that they probably don't genuinely believe in. But they espouse belief in those things anyway in order to maintain social conformity with their peers.

In either case, the teachings are being upheld. I believe that the precise motive behind the obedience is unimportant.

Libertarian ideology looks great on paper. But esp right-libertarianism has the reductive effect of making human beings little more than revenue-generators for "job creators". I have nothing against profit. At the same time though people are always more important than profit. Libertarian ideology makes no accounting for the human soul. Indeed, it wasn't designed to do that.

The problem comes when you realize that libertarianism depends greatly upon a stable society where people exercise their freedoms wisely. The irony is that libertarians are usually the last to acknowledge the dependence their ideology has on the various achievements of the left and the right over the decades. Their doctrine does not exist in a vacuum, much as they wish that it would.

In the end, libertarianism is a logical dead-end. If the economy tanks or if widespread social destabilization occurs or if the country is invaded or whatever, libertarian thought literally has no way to survive. It's a political platform of prosperity that cannot survive the hard times.

Disclaimer: I am not a libertarian. Sure, I dabbled with it once but that was in college! You're supposed to experiment and do silly things like vote Libertarian Party! It's expected! But the limitations and inconsistencies of libertarianism along with my existing in the same world as radical Islamic terrorism concluded the majority of my libertarian experiment. These days, I have no idea how to describe my policy preferences: left of center on economics, relatively far right on social issues and basically libertarian on foreign policy.

Fenwick said:

I think his viewpoint is typical of evangelicalism inasmuch as it has no concept of the social kingship of Christ, they believe there's no point to establishing moral and virtuous societies in this life because it's all going to be destroyed in the end anyway, so it necessarily kicks the can down the road (to the apocalypse).

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They kind of have a point there. Still, I rationalize it that the Church must carry out a consistent witness. If she is to succeed in her job of spreading the gospel, it makes no sense to not take advantage of every opportunity.

Fenwick said:

I have a friend at work that I hang out with while we're on our break, we're the only people in our department who share the same political views and somewhat similar religious views (he's evangelical) so there's an added sense of camaraderie and kinship there. However, while we're both conservative, he's a conservative Libertarian so he basically feels that the concept of free will dictates that no government or entity should act to prohibit sin and vice.

Click to expand...

You might play devil's advocate and ask him if the government suddenly stopped legislating morality, what forms of immorality does he dream about doing. That might start a conversation on how morality is "legislated" for Christians by how a Christian should live and the government laws shouldn't be that onerous on Christians who have a well formed morality outside government control.