The Demise of Evolution

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,519
9,486
✟236,269.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And did Josephus and Tacitus do this? Can you show me their sources? Did they even mention their sources?

Why would Josephus need sources if he is the source himself?

In the Han dynasty of CHina, there was a hsitrorian SimaYi who was recognized at a credible historian. Why would he need sources?

If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,216
2,786
Hartford, Connecticut
✟292,947.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"At best, this only shows that people of those names existed. There's a long way between "There was a guy called Jesus" and concluding that he was the son of God."

Exactly. It suggests that these people of the Bible existed, such as Jesus, while not necessarily suggesting that he truly conducted miracles or was the son of or God himself.

I don't really think that your responses are otherwise meaningful. Examples:

You asked why Roman historians wouldn't have written about Jesus. I explain how even according to scripture, the Romans didn't even know who Jesus was. Your response was:

"Yeah, funny how nobody pays attention until they get the government involved. It's not like that happened to Jesus, is it? Oh wait..."

This sounds like an omission to my point.

I mention how followers of Jesus had oral traditions and your response is:

"And oral tradition is just so reliable, isn't it?"

But again, nobody is calling for a detailed research study on how Jesus broke a single loaf of bread a thousand times. We are simply asking the question of if Jesus potentially existed. In which case, an oral tradition could absolutely be reliable.

You gave some convoluted example of circular reasoning relating to reptile Invaders. But again, Josephus didn't have to be an eye witness to be a credible source in and of himself. No more than I had to be an eye witness of 9/11 to be a credible source for someone if they asked me if it happened.

And again, nobody is asking for detailed research studies on 9/11 or of Jesus' miracles and how he rubbed spit on a blind man's eyes to help him see, or how Jesus conducted exorcisms. We are simply discussing the question of the existence of a man named Jesus who inspired the Christian movement of this time.
 
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sure I have. But I've never done so about something this big. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

A third hand account that someone ate a sandwich a week ago is one thing. A third hand account of someone who could bring back dead people is another thing entirely.



Dunno, I haven't looked into it.

If there are primary sources from the time, not just hearsay, sure, I'd believe it.

So you are saying that if you repeat something little from a third source, it is a small lie. If you say something big, its a big lie.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It depends. There are events that would leave definite evidence behind. At times absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I can give several non-biblical examples that make this clear. The events of Genesis and Exodus as written in the Bible would have left clear evidence of those events behind. That we cannot find such evidence tells us that they do not appear to have happened.

I suppose a biblical event 4000 years ago with no evidence woud be a lie. But a non-biblical event 5000 years ago with no evidence would not be a lie.

DO you believe Jesus as a historical figure exist? If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Historians do need to be able to cite their sources to be credible. That is why historians evidence for Alexander the Great is much much stronger than evidence for Jesus. They do site earlier named eyewitnesses. Some of them eyewitness historians whose work did not survive the years. We do not see that with Jesus.

What if the historians provide a first hand account? What sources would he need? THere was a well known historian SimaYi in teh China Han dysnasty. He is considered a very credible source. Does he need to cite sources?

Do you believe Jesus as a historical figure exist? If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
 
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What is the aim of adding this information? I assume you think it somehow lends credence to the beliefs being persecuted. Emotional hyperbole is a very weak argument which is trivially turned back on the person using the argument. Christians have used what we in the 21st century consider to be horrific tortures and punishments, so claiming that the degree of unpleasantness of punishment in any way lends credence to the misdemeanor is a self-defeating argument.

Do you believe Jesus as a historical figure exist? If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe Jesus as a historical figure exist? If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
We are not, so far as I know, discussing the truth of the Christian faith itself, but the extent to which the Bible and other sources constitute reliable documentary evidence of Jesus. The truth of the Christian faith does not depend upon the answer.
 
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I never said there was only one correct thing in the bible. My point was that just because something is correct in the bible does not mean something else is as well. All claims need to be supported on their own, especially the supernatural ones.

You haven't read one of my previosu post where I write about a supernatural event that cannot be supported by science or claims. There are many such events in this part of the world. I will post in soon when I have time.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We are not, so far as I know, discussing the truth of the Christian faith itself, but the extent to which the Bible and other sources constitute reliable documentary evidence of Jesus. The truth of the Christian faith does not depend upon the answer.

As far as you know? ... I believe you know more than that.

The truth of Christianitydepends ENTIRELY on BOTH the exitence and resurrection of Jesus. Even if Jesus exists but did not overcome death, then Christainity is just teaching us to be be good, liek other religious or moral teachings. people.But Jesus overcome death means God save His Son from death and can do likewise for others who wanted the same salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
As far as you know? ... I believe you know more than that.

The truth of Christianitydepends ENTIRELY on BOTH the exitence and resurrection of Jesus. Even if Jesus exists but did not overcome death, then Christainity is just teaching us to be be good, liek other religious or moral teachings. people.But Jesus overcome death means God save His Son from death and can do likewise for others who wanted the same salvation.
Correct. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the reliability of the Bible and other sources as historical documents. (Saying "as far as I know" was just an attempt to subtly point out that you are not on topic.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bungle_Bear
Upvote 0

Bungle_Bear

Whoot!
Mar 6, 2011
9,084
3,513
✟254,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe Jesus as a historical figure exist? If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
Yet another non sequitur. If you cannot address the post just say nothing.

Do you believe it is acceptable to boil people to death? To burn them at the stake? To stretch them on a rack? That's what Christians did to people, so it's somewhat hypocritical of you to complain about mistreatment of Christians by others.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,628
12,068
✟230,461.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
What if the historians provide a first hand account? What sources would he need? THere was a well known historian SimaYi in teh China Han dysnasty. He is considered a very credible source. Does he need to cite sources?

Do you believe Jesus as a historical figure exist? If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
I am fairly sure that Jesus did exist. My point was that the historical evidence for him is not very strong.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,628
12,068
✟230,461.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I suppose a biblical event 4000 years ago with no evidence woud be a lie. But a non-blical event 5000 years ago with no evidence would not be a lie.

DO you believe Jesus as a historical figure exist? If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?

Once again I am not a mythicist. And why twelve men? Why take the Bible as being literally true? Your "logic" has completely fallen apart.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
892
54
Texas
✟109,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
You haven't read one of my previosu post where I write about a supernatural event that cannot be supported by science or claims. There are many such events in this part of the world. I will post in soon when I have time.
Ok, but what is the point if you cannot support it with good evidence?
 
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟281,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Why would Josephus need sources if he is the source himself?
When did Josephus live?

In the Han dynasty of CHina, there was a hsitrorian SimaYi who was recognized at a credible historian. Why would he need sources?
Because the Han dynasty lasted over four hundred years.

If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
If Xenu did not exist, why are there ten million Scientologists?

I think you need to reevaluate your epistemology.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

Leading a blameless life
Jul 14, 2015
12,271
7,626
51
✟312,535.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
It is agreed (by the scientific community and the faith community) whatever happened for life to begin ... happened out in the cosmos ....
That's not true. Who ever told you that?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: HitchSlap
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Larniavc

Leading a blameless life
Jul 14, 2015
12,271
7,626
51
✟312,535.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
If Jesus did not exist, how did Christianity and the church begin? by 12 men plotting a story? How did tens of thouands came to believe?
Probably the same way all the other world wide religions got started. People will believe anything is it makes them feel better.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.