Was Jesus a legalist?

Loversofjesus_2018

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Does the Passage Belong in the Bible? The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 7:53-8:11)

John 7:53-8:11 -- is it authentic?


Is John 7:53-8:11 original to John's gospel?

The Historicity of the "Pericope Adulterae" (John 7:53-8:11)

It is also worth noting that the wikipedia page you cited does not take a stance on the authenticity of the story, only that it was not present in earlier versions of the gospels. The links to other sources listed on the wikipedia page also tend to agree with my position, that despite being a later addition to the NT it still 'holds all trademarks of historical authenticity'. The most common reason proposed for why such a story would be excluded from the canon is that the story might have been taken as Jesus being too 'lenient' on adulterers and that people might try to abuse the grace given to them.

I'll quote that wikipedia article you linked me to give you an example;

"Jerome, writing around 417, reports that the pericope adulterae was found in its usual place in "many Greek and Latin manuscripts" in Rome and the Latin West. This is confirmed by some Latin Fathers of the 300s and 400s, including Ambrose of Milan, and Augustine. The latter claimed that the passage may have been improperly excluded from some manuscripts in order to avoid the impression that Christ had sanctioned adultery:

Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin."




Okay.



I mean, perhaps you should've included a more fitting link then because what you gave me had nothing to do with fabrications. It was a list of textual differences, which is in essence word semantics and translation changes.



Ok.



Personally, I don't see what the uproar is about the passage. As I said, it doesn't really teach anything 'new' about Jesus; his behavior seems quite normal to what he portrayed in the other gospels. In addition to this, he did not tell the woman 'Go and commit adultery as much as you want' he said 'Go and sin no more'--he essentially saved her from a stoning as an act of grace so that she might repent, which is the kind of theme the entire NT is based on and coincides perfectly with Jesus' sacrifice.
It seems the issue is if it wasn’t in the original cannon why is it in there? Was the cannon not sealed and people were allowed to claim something else happened and toss it in? I don’t know if it’s original or not because I personally don’t trust historians and “experts” opinions as the end all be all. I leave room for human beings to be human beings. But if it’s added in it gives some pause I would think.
 
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What if it is a forgery? Is this even a possibility in your view that something in the Bible isn’t original?

No. It's not a forgery.
How so? Well...

What did Jesus write on the ground in John 8?

John 4:14 says,

"...the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."​

John 7:37-39 says,

37 "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.​
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"​

This relates. We can know what Jesus was writing in the ground when the Jews tested him in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery by looking at other Scripture. By Scripture, we see a reference to the LORD [Jesus], the fountain of living waters [the Holy Spirit].

Jeremiah 17:13 says,

"O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD [i.e. Jesus], the fountain of living waters [i.e. the Holy Ghost]."​

Note 1: The words in brackets in light blue (above) are my commentary on the text.

Note 2: Words in bright red are references to the Holy Spirit. Words in green are about the Tree of Life, the door (wood, tree), who is Jesus.

Note 3: In the words in the above verse, you will notice that they (the Jews) were accusing Jesus in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery, their names were written down on the earth. This is what Jesus was writing on the Earth. Jesus was writing down the names of those who had forsaken the Lord. I highlighted the words in purple above in Jeremiah to show that their names are written in the earth as we behold in the scene in John 8.

Note 4: We tie this together because the words, "the LORD, the fountain of living waters" in Jeremiah 17:13 are tied to John 7:38 which says, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Again, John 7:38 says,

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."​

Here is the scene with Jesus writing on the ground with the Jews concerning the woman caught in the act of adultery:

John 8:4-6 says,

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.​
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?​
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. "​

What is interesting is that in the very previous chapter (John 7), we are told that anyone who believes in Jesus out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Yet, in Jeremiah 17:13, we learn that this fountain of living waters is what these Jews rejected and their names were written in the ground because they forsaken the Lord.

So yes. It's true. John 8 belongs in your Bible.
The testimony of the whole of Scripture confirms this.
In other words, let God's Word change you, and do not change God's Word.
 
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Nope I believe God has supernaturally protected His word. Reading the Bible has a supernatural effect on you and those around you, even if you don't understand. For faith cometh by hearing the Word of God. Also God choose to save people through the foolishness of preaching. Psalms 12:6-7 Romans 10:17 1 Corinthians 1:18-31

I also agree.
Well said.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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No. It's not a forgery.
How so? Well...

What did Jesus write on the ground in John 8?

John 4:14 says,

"...the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."​

John 7:37-39 says,

37 "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"​

This relates. We can know what Jesus was writing in the ground when the Jews tested him in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery by looking at other Scripture. By Scripture, we see a reference to the LORD [Jesus], the fountain of living waters [the Holy Spirit].

Jeremiah 17:13 says,

"O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD [i.e. Jesus], the fountain of living waters [i.e. the Holy Ghost]."​

Note 1: The words in brackets in light blue (above) is my commentary to the text.

Note 2: Words in bright red are references to the Holy Spirit. Words in green is in reference to the Tree of Life, the door (wood, tree), who is Jesus.

Note 3: In the words in the above verse, you will notice that they (the Jews) that were accusing Jesus in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery, their names were written down in the earth. This is what Jesus was writing in the Earth. Jesus was writing down the names of those who had forsaken the Lord. I highlighted the words in purple above in Jeremiah to show that their names written in the earth as we behold in the scene in John 8.

Note 4: We tie this together because of the words, "the LORD, the fountain of living waters" in Jeremiah 17:13 is tied to John 7:38 that says, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Again, John 7:38 says,

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."​

Here is the scene with Jesus writing in the ground with the Jews in regards to the woman caught in the act of adultery:

John 8:4-6 says,

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. "​

What is interesting is that the very previous chapter (John 7), we are told that anyone who believes in Jesus out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Yet, in Jeremiah 17:13, we learn that this fountain of living waters is what these Jews rejected and their names were written in the ground because they forsaken the Lord.

So yes. It's true. John 8 belongs in your Bible.
In other words, let God's Word change you, and do not change God's Word.
Thank you for all that but it still leaves this in my mind. You said don’t change Gods word... most agree it wasn’t original so it was indeed changed right?
 
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Thank you for all that but it still leaves this in my mind. You said don’t change Gods word... most agree it wasn’t original so it was indeed changed right?

No. You are going off the corrupt line of manuscripts (Which is the the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus.) which is what most Modern Translations are based upon. The Textus Receptus (Which is where the KJV comes from) has no such problems.

Interlinear Bible: John 8:10 - Textus Receptus Bibles
 
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bling

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You may believe this but a lot of historians and so called experts would disagree with you. It’s weird because we accept the findings of historians in some areas but won’t in others areas where it clashes with our personal beliefs. So to you it’s not even possible that what we are reading today and the original has some differences in its contents?
The New Testament is extremely well preserved when compared to other books around that time. If there was something really doctrinally controversial that was also questionable authenticity we might have a problem.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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No. You are going off the corrupt line of manuscripts (Which is the the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus.) which is what most Modern Translations are based upon. The Textus Receptus (Which is where the KJV comes from) has no such problems.

Interlinear Bible: John 8:10 - Textus Receptus Bibles
I don’t know how to keep up anymore. These people say this, these people say that, this version is this, this version is that. I guess people trust who they wanna trust. Thanks for the conversation :)
 
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Do you ever trust people with help interpreting parts of scripture? If so why do you trust them? Or do you only trust scripture and scripture alone?
I use study helps, but I trust scripture the most.
I think a lot of people go off of what “experts and historians say on the subjects. I mean the reason you believe the cannon is accurate is because you believe the ones who put it together right?
Right. I believe the Holy Spirit is capable of working through people to create the scripture canon.
What if it is a forgery? Is this even a possibility in your view that something in the Bible isn’t original?
I believe the Holy Spirit supernaturally protects the integrity of the Word of God. Faith in the Word of God is what Christianity is founded on.If the Word of God is faulty, then God is faulty.
 
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What about acknowledging the possibility that something could have been added later. Are you denying that this is possible at all?
Like I said earlier, The Holy Spirit supernaturally preserves the Word of God. No I do not deny that the Holy Spirit may have added something.
 
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I don’t know how to keep up anymore. These people say this, these people say that, this version is this, this version is that. I guess people trust who they wanna trust. Thanks for the conversation :)
If God has given you faith to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you can believe every thing He says, for He does not tell lies. I decided long ago that the whole Bible is God's Word. There are no lies.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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Like I said earlier, The Holy Spirit supernaturally preserves the Word of God. No I do not deny that the Holy Spirit may have added something.
Earlier you said you “believe” the Holy Spirit preserves his word, now you left belief out abs and said he does those are two completely different statements. If you believe something your acknowledging that your knowledge is limited in which you could be wrong however if your certain the holy spirit preserved it and nothing was added then we can stop discussing since your certain of what your saying. Because I’m not certain of this subject at all so you definitely win. Thanks for the talk :)
 
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Earlier you said you “believe” the Holy Spirit preserves his word, now you left belief out abs and said he does those are two completely different statements. If you believe something your acknowledging that your knowledge is limited in which you could be wrong however if your certain the holy spirit preserved it and nothing was added then we can stop discussing since your certain of what your saying. Because I’m not certain of this subject at all so you definitely win. Thanks for the talk :)
1. I believe by faith that the Holy Spirit preserves the integrity of God's Word.
2. Since The Holy Spirit IS God, Yes, He preserves His Word for He cannot be separate from His Word! He does not lie.
3. If Holy Spirit wanted to add anything He had the right to do so.
You are welcome.. :)
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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It seems the issue is if it wasn’t in the original cannon why is it in there? Was the cannon not sealed and people were allowed to claim something else happened and toss it in? I don’t know if it’s original or not because I personally don’t trust historians and “experts” opinions as the end all be all. I leave room for human beings to be human beings. But if it’s added in it gives some pause I would think.

To be fair, you have to realize that the Bible itself was compiled long after Jesus' time. The contents were decided by many councils and careful consideration.

The bottom line is this; you have to believe God will preserve his word, and that anything in there was added because it was true and of value to Christians.

I also think the skepticism towards historians is unwarranted; it's because of them that we have this much info about the Bible at all and can verify things. Truth be told, as I said, the passage probably was part of the canon but removed by the church due to it's possible implications. It was later re-added.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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To be fair, you have to realize that the Bible itself was compiled long after Jesus' time. The contents were decided by many councils and careful consideration.

The bottom line is this; you have to believe God will preserve his word, and that anything in there was added because it was true and of value to Christians.

I also think the skepticism towards historians is unwarranted; it's because of them that we have this much info about the Bible at all and can verify things. Truth be told, as I said, the passage probably was part of the canon but removed by the church due to it's possible implications. It was later re-added.
Yeah I do think we should take that into consideration however it seems historians have biases and so therefore I have to be somewhat skeptical of any information gathered through research of 2nd hand information. I’m not saying all information from a second hand source is false but I def have to leave open the possibility that it could be.
 
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Was Jesus a Legalist?

Well, we need to first define what Legalism is before we answer this kind of question.

full

Source:
Definition of legalism | Dictionary.com

Legalism is defined in the dictionary as:

1. Strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence to law, especially to the letter rather than the spirit.
2. Theology: The doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
In judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.​

Is this true?

Well, usually I am in support of secular dictionaries in what they say because they generally are not attached with religious bias. But in this case because it refers to a theological word, this word was unfortunately created by religious men and it has later branched off to have different meanings in the secular world (See definition 3).

Okay. So is definition 1 correct? Is strict law keeping according to the letter of Scripture contrary to the Spirit? No. There is no actual verse or passage that says such a thing in the Bible.

Scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). In other words, Scripture is literally God breathed by the Holy Spirit. The Word of God (Scripture) is called the Sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17).

Jesus did not sin (1 Peter 2:22) (Hebrews 4:15) (2 Corinthians 5:21).

To sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).
Jesus referred to Scripture many times.
In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Mt. 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.”

So if Jesus did not break God's laws and He had a high regard for Scripture, this means He was a strict legalist according to Scripture or the written Word. Jesus also abided with the Holy Spirit. So being a strict legalist according to the letter is not contrary to abiding with the Spirit. For it is the Spirit that inspired Scripture to give us hundreds of commands in the New Testament. Many of these commands deal with salvation. Repentance is a commandment (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Believing in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). To not be a strict legalist means one can kind of break God's laws a little (Which would be sin). Jesus never sinned.

So this first definition is false. It may be true from the religious man's perspective or thinking, but it is not true according to Scripture.

The first half of the second definition says, "Theology: The doctrine that salvation is gained through good works."

Is this true or false? Well, we are not saved by good works alone or Law Alone. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ without the deeds of the Law. But after we are saved by God's grace, we have to enter the Sanctification Process (Which involves the power of God working in us to live a holy life). This is the second step or phase of the salvation process. It is the second work of God done in our life that is a part of salvation. This includes good works of the Lord done through the believer. So good works on some level do play a part in the salvation process. It is just not works alone that saves us because we first need God's grace to be saved in order to wipe out our past slate of sin so as to be forgiven. But it sounds like this second definition is against all forms of doing good works. If this is the case, then this second definition is also false.

The term "legalistic" appears to be traced back as early as 1838.

See:
legalistic | Origin and meaning of legalistic by Online Etymology Dictionary

According to Wikipedia, and the Bible, the Greek word "nomos" was most definitely used in a legalistic sense in Galatians 2:16.

full



Source:
Legalism (theology) - Wikipedia

Is this true? Yes. There is a Legalistic wrong way that a person can end up going according to the Bible. Paul preached strongly against "Law Alone Salvationism" via by one thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved.

I call this the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."

Paul fought against this false belief heavily and you can glean it mostly from his writings to the Galatians and to the Romans.

  1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

  2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

  3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

  4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

  5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

  6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

  7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

  8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

  9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

The heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" is clearly defined for us at the Jerusalem Council:

  1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

  2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

  3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Basically it was a huge problem because if somebody thought they first had to be circumcised in order to be saved, they would in essence be making the Law of Moses or Law Alone-ism the foundation of their salvation and it would not be based any longer on being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel as per 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That's the problem that Paul fought against. This was the wrong form of Legalism that Paul fought against.

In other words, there is a good Legalism, and a bad Legalism. Obeying God strictly is never wrong. But obeying laws that have been superseded by the New Covenant, or man made laws is bad Legalism.

So in Conclusion:

Was Jesus a legalist?

Yes, and no. It depends on what you mean by a legalist.

Jesus always obeyed the Father, and He did everything in line with Scripture and the Spirit and He fulfilled Scripture to a "T." So yes. Jesus was a good legalist because He strictly obeyed His Father. Jesus was not a bad legalist; For a bad legalist is someone who strives to obey old laws (like OT laws) that are no longer in effect or they strive to obey man made traditions that are not God's laws.
 
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Many will point out at this point that Jesus should have stoned the woman caught in the act of adultery according to the Law of Moses. If Jesus was a strict legalist, He should have stoned her. Is this true? Well, if Jesus was making changes to the Law by the authority of His Father, then He was not acting outside of God's laws. God changing certain Laws before the cross is God's prerogative. For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So once God makes a change of the Law, then we are to follow the new way. For again, if Jesus was disobeying the Old Law, He would have sinned. This is simply not possible. Only if there is a change of the Law from the authority of God the Father could Jesus then act differently than what we read in the Law.

Others will point out the bill of divorcement, as well. Jesus said that Moses had written that because of the hardness of the hearts of the Israelites. But did God act contrary to this Law in regards to the bill of divorce? No. It was only until Jesus came that He revealed how things were going to be different now. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I believe the New Covenant began officially with Christ's death, but Jesus was preparing men for the New Covenant by changing certain Laws. We can see some of these changes made involving the Law at the Sermon on the Mount.
 
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I don’t know how to keep up anymore. These people say this, these people say that, this version is this, this version is that. I guess people trust who they wanna trust. Thanks for the conversation :)
Greetings and Salutations Loversofjesus,
Your faith is the key. From my study which is not much. I believe the KJV is the complete inspired word of God for the english tongue. I choose to believe that the "Textus Receptus" or received text is 100 percent inspired. I choose the Byzantine texts over the Vatican.
 
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