Has a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus' eclipsed 'Justification by Faith Alone'?

K Watt · May 5, 2020

Albion said:
.

But okay, go ahead and show us how Faith in Christ does not require Faith.

Read it again. A true conversion does not always accompany faith:

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

2 Peter 2:20 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Tim 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

John 15
5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Albion · May 5, 2020

K Watt said:
Read it again. A true conversion does not always accompany faith:

Luke 8:13
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

This is not a reference to Faith. It is a reference to believing for awhile.

It refers to an intellectual assent to something or other, but that is not Faith. You remember that the Bible also says that even the devils believe. We do not say that the devils had Faith, do we?

Thus, merely saying you have Faith will not save you (or anyone), nor will knowing about Jesus and thinking well of him.

This is the central message of James' epistle.

K Watt · May 5, 2020

Exactly.

Albion said:
This is not a reference to Faith. It is a reference to believing for awhile.

It refers to an intellectual assent to something or other, but that is not Faith. You remember that the Bible also says that even the devils believe. We do not say that the devils had Faith, do we?

Thus, merely saying you have Faith will not save you (or anyone), nor will knowing about Jesus and thinking well of him.

This is the central message of James' epistle.

Exactly. Faith must be accompanied by works.

Albion · May 5, 2020

K Watt said:
Exactly.

Exactly. Faith must be accompanied by works.

That's true. The question that makes this a controversial issue among Christians, however, is this: Do the works that accompany the Faith enhance the chances of that person being saved? Do these works contribute to his standing with God vis-a-vis the person's eternal destiny?

K Watt · May 5, 2020

Albion said:
That's true. The question that makes this a controversial issue among Christians, however, is this: Do the works that accompany the Faith enhance the chances of that person being saved? Do these works contribute to his standing with God vis-a-vis the person's eternal destiny?

Of course.

Romans 2
6God will repay each one according to his deeds. 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Matt 25
44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 6:14-15 14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

crossnote · May 5, 2020

K Watt said:
God's grace is a gift. What will we do with it?

Romans 11
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

I love how legalists yank verses out of context to try to make them fit their point.
That verse is addressing the God's mercy in bringing salvation to the Gentiles due to the hardness of Israel's hardness. It has nothing to do with individuals losing salvation, but that God could (if He wanted) close off (cut off) salvation to the Gentiles.

K Watt said:
Matt 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Another verse yanked out of context, or what is your point? Are you changing the topic to 'can a person lose salvation?...If you look at the context and see who Jesus was speaking to, you will find...
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (Mat 10:5)

K Watt said:
Phil 3
11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. 15All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view.

Yes, we are in a lifelong growth process, but don't forget this first part...

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
(Php 3:8-10)

Albion · May 5, 2020

K Watt said:
Of course.

Romans 2
6God will repay each one according to his deeds. 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

This doesn't say that they will determine salvation or damnation, however, just that they will be rewarded. This isn't generally in dispute.

Matt 25‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Of course it's the righteous who will be saved. If we thought otherwise, we'd all be Universalists.

K Watt · May 6, 2020

crossnote said:
I love how legalists yank verses out of context to try to make them fit their point.
That verse is addressing the God's mercy in bringing salvation to the Gentiles due to the hardness of Israel's hardness. It has nothing to do with individuals losing salvation, but that God could (if He wanted) close off (cut off) salvation to the Gentiles.

Another verse yanked out of context, or what is your point? Are you changing the topic to 'can a person lose salvation?...If you look at the context and see who Jesus was speaking to, you will find...
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (Mat 10:5)

Yes, we are in a lifelong growth process, but don't forget this first part...

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
(Php 3:8-10)

I see that you don't like to accept what is written in scripture if it conflicts with your dogma. The words are not ambiguous.

Also, our forgiveness through repentance is only possible by grace through faith. That does not change the fact that we need to confess our sins and strive for holiness. We must cooperate with this free gift. Satan would love for us to assume that our actions are irrelevant to salvation.

K Watt · May 6, 2020

Albion said:
This doesn't say that they will determine salvation or damnation, however, just that they will be rewarded. This isn't generally in dispute.

Of course it's the righteous who will be saved. If we thought otherwise, we'd all be Universalists.

Regarding Paul's words in Romans, I can't believe you could respond as you did after reading those two verses. It's incredible.

What makes the sheep righteous?

crossnote · May 6, 2020

K Watt said:
I see that you don't like to accept what is written in scripture if it conflicts with your dogma.

Then you need to recheck your eyesight. My dogma is shaped by Scripture.

K Watt said:
The words are not ambiguous.

Which words? All I recall saying was the verses you used were out of context.

K Watt said:
Also, our forgiveness through repentance is only possible by grace through faith.

True, and?

K Watt said:
That does not change the fact that we need to confess our sins and strive for holiness.

True, and?

K Watt said:
We must cooperate with this free gift.

Our cooperation comes into play in our sanctification, not the free gift of justification. You do know the difference don't you?

K Watt said:
Satan would love for us to assume that our actions are irrelevant to salvation.

Yes, if you add works to being justified you come under the curse of God. Satan sure would love that. You are doing despite to the Spirit of grace. As far as sanctification and our 'cooperation' goes, that is dealing with rewards of faithfulness.
Your works can't improve on that One Act of obedience by which we are saved.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

K Watt · May 6, 2020

Do you believe that sin can sepa

crossnote said:
Yes, if you add works to being justified you come under the curse of God. Satan sure would love that. You are doing despite to the Spirit of grace. As far as sanctification and our 'cooperation' goes, that is dealing with rewards of faithfulness.
Your works can't improve on that One Act of obedience by which we are saved.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

Do you believe that you can live a life of sin from now on without repenting and go to heaven?

crossnote · May 6, 2020

K Watt said:
Do you believe that you can live a life of sin from now on without repenting and go to heaven?

I believe, now being born again, I have a heart that loathes sin and desires righteousness. That gift came on account of Jesus Christ and His work for my redemption.
Are you obedient to Jesus? Have you been born anew. Did you once hate God and avoid Him but now desire Him alone above all else and are eternally thankful for his gracious gift or are you too busy trying to earn your sanctification and in convincing others they must earn that too?

K Watt · May 7, 2020

crossnote said:
I believe, now being born again, I have a heart that loathes sin and desires righteousness. That gift came on account of Jesus Christ and His work for my redemption.
Are you obedient to Jesus? Have you been born anew. Did you once hate God and avoid Him but now desire Him alone above all else and are eternally thankful for his gracious gift or are you too busy trying to earn your sanctification and in convincing others they must earn that too?

You never sin?

crossnote · May 7, 2020

K Watt said:
You never sin?

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:10
What made you ask that?... because I never claimed sinlessness.

K Watt · May 7, 2020

crossnote said:
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:10
What made you ask that?... because I never claimed sinlessness.

OK.

Then you can answer this:

Do you believe that you can live a life of sin from now on without repenting and go to heaven?

crossnote · May 7, 2020

K Watt said:
OK.

Then you can answer this:

Do you believe that you can live a life of sin from now on without repenting and go to heaven?

First off, our sanctification consists of a life of repentance. True repentance is a gift as well.
Acts 11:18 (KJV) When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Secondly, you never answered my question to you..."What made you ask that?" (post #174)

K Watt · May 7, 2020

crossnote said:
First off, our sanctification consists of a life of repentance. True repentance is a gift as well.
Acts 11:18 (KJV) When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Secondly, you never answered my question to you..."What made you ask that?" (post #174)

Repentance is an act of will on our part. We can't repent without contrition and a recognition of our sin.

crossnote · May 7, 2020

K Watt said:
Repentance is an act of will on our part. We can't repent without contrition and a recognition of our sin.

So I don't agree with your crass Pelagian position.
Recognition and contrition of sin is also a gift...
John 16:8-9 (NASB) "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Now your turn to answer ...What made you ask 'if I ever sin'?

K Watt · May 8, 2020

crossnote said:
So I don't agree with your crass Pelagian position.
Recognition and contrition of sin is also a gift...
John 16:8-9 (NASB) "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Now your turn to answer ...What made you ask 'if I ever sin'?

You indicated that you don't need to confess your sins to go to heaven.

Am I misrepresenting your views?

crossnote · May 8, 2020

K Watt said:
You indicated that you don't need to confess your sins to go to heaven.

Am I misrepresenting your views?

If you are referring to post #173, please show where I said one does not need to confess their sin. (At least to God). Seems like you misrepresented my view.
If not, which post did I say such a thing, and maybe I can explain myself?

Has a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus' eclipsed 'Justification by Faith Alone'?

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