THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

JacksBratt said:

Those that reject Christ are without hope.

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Those that have accepted Christ - were - without hope:

"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world."

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

For how long long did Paul, the worst of sinners, "reject Christ"?

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Micah 7:18b he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. (KJV)

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. (KJV)

One thing God has spoken, two things I have heard: “Power belongs to you, God, and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”; Psalm 62:11b-12a

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

JacksBratt said:

We do not become a child of God.. or even be part of the family if we don't accept Christ.

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Sorry but I disagree.

"son of Adam, son of God" (Luke 3:38)
"God made from one stock every race of humans to live on the whole face of the earth.... For we are his offspring." (Acts 17:26-28)
"For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Ephesians 3:14-15)
"For from him and through him and for him are all things." (Romans 11:36)
"So God created mankind in his own image." (Genesis 1:27)

Likewise, the prodigal son never ceased to be his father's child.

mmksparbud said:

God's justice is Holy and Pure and Loving. It is not like ours. He alone knows the heart. There are incredibly few child molesters who will ever be rehabilitated. There are serial killers who have admitted that if they were to be freed, they'd kill again. Even they know when the death penalty is just. Whatever decision God makes---is just. He can not do otherwise. If you do not think He is just in annihilating whomsoever He decides to----if this makes Him into some sort of a monster to you, you need not worry---you won't be happy serving Him and He won't force you to.

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The human heart will never understand another human's heart. Why child molesters and serial killers do what they do the majority of us will never understand.

To us humans, it would seem that that brother/sister is lost.... without hope... dead in their transgressions.

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."
Ephesians 2:1-5

Do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
Romans 2:4

agapelove said:

Sorry but I disagree.

"son of Adam, son of God" (Luke 3:38)
"God made from one stock every race of humans to live on the whole face of the earth.... For we are his offspring." (Acts 17:26-28)
"For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Ephesians 3:14-15)
"For from him and through him and for him are all things." (Romans 11:36)
"So God created mankind in his own image." (Genesis 1:27)

Likewise, the prodigal son never ceased to be his father's child.

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Well, we'll have to agree... to disagree.....

Look me up in paradise and we can sit by the river and laugh about all the things we had wrongly understood in this life.

agapelove said:

The human heart will never understand another human's heart. Why child molesters and serial killers do what they do the majority of us will never understand.

To us humans, it would seem that that brother/sister is lost.... without hope... dead in their transgressions.

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."
Ephesians 2:1-5

Do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
Romans 2:4

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Nope. I rely on His knowledge of the human heart. I rely on His pure and Holy love, justice and mercy to do what He decided is the right thing to do. He alone can make that decision. There are what the bible calls books---the book of life, anyone not in it does not enter into the City of God. Anyone not in it, is destined for the lake of fire. I do not presume to know the mind of God. The bible says the books will be opened, and everyone will be able to see the life history in those books for each individual. God is open about what He does and why. The books re not for the benefit of God---He knows the heart iof everyone. It is for the benefit all who do not know the individual. They expose hey truth. All everyone else does is see what God saw. And everyone will agree that His judgements are fair, just and loving. Everyone---even you. But those who will not have repented of their sins, and think He does not have the right to do as He sees fit---will not enter into the city. He knows who they are. He will never the force the will. If being with Him will not bring joy to the individual, they will not spend eternity with Him. Satan would rather be annihilated than to live in eternity under His rule. He will not be alone. You can call it whatever you want. To place anyone under a situation that causes them severe pain until they do as you want is forced repentance. It is not the working of the Holy Spirit--THE GODHEAD DOES NOT TORTURE INTO SUBMISSION!! This is not love! This is not a gentle coaxing over sometimes years to entreat the heart---this is severe pain until submission! The devouring fire of the Lord is not a gentle, soothing shower of love to the lost---it is a blazing fire of destruction! It devours instantly, like that drop on the surface of the sun.


This is an act of total rebellion against God---this is not an act of repentance! This is Hitler and Satan and every vile, evil person that ever lived, angry and wanting to take by force what they could have had for free! This is God protecting His loved ones from those who would utterly destroy, enslave, torture every single person within that city!

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I give God the right to do as He sees fit! Those who think they know better than He does, will be on the other side!

mmksparbud said:

I give God the right to do as He sees fit! Those who think they know better than He does, will be on the other side!

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I a mere mortal, wrapped in mortality in every part of my dusty being, am not in a position to set the Author of ta pavnte straight on His plan in the Lord Isous!

Accepted By God

If I were to ask the average believer what is the basis of their confidence that their old man has been crucified with Christ, and that they've been raised with Him in newness of life, their answer might be, "I know so, because I've accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior." That, I dare say, would be the wrong answer.

Why?

Because their answer indicates that their confidence is in what they have done. The correct answer simply is, "I know I'm crucified and risen with Christ, because Christ died and rose again for me."

Does that sound like I'm splitting hairs?

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Accepted by God

“All men will be saved. But God isn’t trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.

Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace. As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.

God not only ‘allows’ evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day.” -Michael Killian-

mmksparbud said:

He will never the force the will.

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Really? He made King Neb (Daniel) like an animal for 7 years. Without his permission. By force. Of his will.

mmksparbud said:

THE GODHEAD DOES NOT TORTURE INTO SUBMISSION!! This is not love!

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What do you call what happened to Job or repeatedly to OT Israel or in the following Scriptures:

Heb.12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Scourge: "God sending severe pain in the best eternal interests of the believer (see Heb 12:6)"
Strong's Greek: 3146. μαστιγόω (mastigoó) -- to scourge

1 Corinthians 5:5
hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1Tim.1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

2 Cor.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he will be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. (Rev.14:10)
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. (Rev.14:11)

mmksparbud said:

This is Hitler and Satan and every vile, evil person that ever lived, angry and wanting to take by force what they could have had for free!

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That sounds like insanity, which is a defense that results in acquittal of the insane.

I wonder if Hitler is in heaven now.

I also wonder if anyone here thinks (in their heart of hearts) they are better than him.

mmksparbud said:

I give God the right to do as He sees fit! Those who think they know better than He does, will be on the other side!

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Judgy. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".

mmksparbud said:

To place anyone under a situation that causes them severe pain until they do as you want is forced repentance. It is not the working of the Holy Spirit--THE GODHEAD DOES NOT TORTURE INTO SUBMISSION!! This is not love! This is not a gentle coaxing over sometimes years to entreat the heart---this is severe pain until submission! The devouring fire of the Lord is not a gentle, soothing shower of love to the lost---it is a blazing fire of destruction! It devours instantly, like that drop on the surface of the sun.

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You know... I became saved while I was in a time of complete distress. I was going through a lot of mental and physical pain. I credit this pain for forcing me to look into the abyss of my own heart, where I found both the black hole of spiritual emptiness and also my salvation.

Many people find their salvation this way. Hundreds of testimonies begin with addiction, depression, abuse, sickness... terrible painful things. Was God torturing them into submission?

ClementofA said:

Really? He made King Neb (Daniel) like an animal for 7 years. Without his permission. By force. Of his will.



What do you call what happened to Job or repeatedly to OT Israel or in the following Scriptures:

Heb.12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Scourge: "God sending severe pain in the best eternal interests of the believer (see Heb 12:6)"
Strong's Greek: 3146. μαστιγόω (mastigoó) -- to scourge

1 Corinthians 5:5
hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1Tim.1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

2 Cor.7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he will be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. (Rev.14:10)
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. (Rev.14:11)



That sounds like insanity, which is a defense that results in acquittal of the insane.

I wonder if Hitler is in heaven now.

I also wonder if anyone here thinks (in their heart of hearts) they are better than him.



Judgy. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do".

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Yes---He humbles the proud--what has that to do with torture? Neb. became like an animal, in as much as his mind was gone, but he was not tortured with severe pain. He ate and drank and did not suffer. And then his mind was returned to him. He was not aware of what had happened until his mind returned and he could see his nails, and his hair and his whole appearance and then he knew and his pride and arrogance was gone. It was not God that took everything from Job---that was Satan. God allowed it--- as a future example for us also as well as to show Satan that Job was faithful to Him not because God protected Him and gave Him, everything. These are not the same thing as going into the LOF until they submit to His will. These are for punishment and change---the lake of fire is not for change---it is for the final end of sin.

Hitler is not in heaven now---He is dead and buried and "The dead know not anything." Even David is not in heaven.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

The insane are not exactly acquitted---they are locked up in assylums instead of jail. Gold knows the end from the beginning---He knows who will repent and who will not. The wicked show no sign oif repenting when fire devours them, quite the opposite of repentance, they are attacking God and all the saved.

agapelove said:

You know... I became saved while I was in a time of complete distress. I was going through a lot of mental and physical pain. I credit this pain for forcing me to look into the abyss of my own heart, where I found both the black hole of spiritual emptiness and also my salvation.

Many people find their salvation this way. Hundreds of testimonies begin with addiction, depression, abuse, sickness... terrible painful things. Was God torturing them into submission?

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Yes---so did I. The wicked have had their time for repentance and refused. Time is up when Jesus returns for the saved. It is quite simply what God said He will do with those who have refused all His efforts and will continue in sin.

agapelove said:

You know... I became saved while I was in a time of complete distress. I was going through a lot of mental and physical pain. I credit this pain for forcing me to look into the abyss of my own heart, where I found both the black hole of spiritual emptiness and also my salvation.

Many people find their salvation this way. Hundreds of testimonies begin with addiction, depression, abuse, sickness... terrible painful things. Was God torturing them into submission?

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True. I've heard it said that people often have to "reach bottom" before they seek help.

mmksparbud said:

It was not God that took everything from Job---that was Satan. God allowed it---

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It was God. The Bible says so:

Job 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

22In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.

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So what Job said in the Scriptures above was truth.

Yeah God allowed it, like Hitler allowed his accomplices to gas Jews to death. So God was at least as responsible for what tortures happened to Job as Satan was. In fact more responsible. You should read the account in Job chapters 1 & 2.

Eccl.1:13 And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It is a sad travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.

That would include all the tortures humans endure, e.g. child birth.

The stated purpose of it all is to humble people.

mmksparbud said:

as a future example for us also as well as to show Satan that Job was faithful to Him not because God protected Him and gave Him, everything. These are not the same thing as going into the LOF until they submit to His will. These are for punishment and change---the lake of fire is not for change---it is for the final end of sin.

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That's all besides the point which is that God does torment/torture or allow His beings to be tormented/tortured for their own good.

mmksparbud said:

Hitler is not in heaven now---He is dead and buried and "The dead know not anything." Even David is not in heaven.

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Again this is besides the point that for all you know Hitler may have died a saved man. OTOH, if you end up lost, he'll be better off than you.

mmksparbud said:

The insane are not exactly acquitted---they are locked up in assylums instead of jail.

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In my part of the world, a civilized country, they are acquitted & then helped with treatments, medicines & loving care until they - hopefully - recover.

mmksparbud said:

Gold knows the end from the beginning---He knows who will repent and who will not.

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If He knows what decisions will be made, then how can they have free will? How can free will even exist?

ClementofA said:

It was God. The Bible says so:



So what Job said in the Scriptures above was truth.

Yeah God allowed it, like Hitler allowed his accomplices to gas Jews to death. So God was at least as responsible for what tortures happened to Job as Satan was. In fact more responsible. You should read the account in Job chapters 1 & 2.

Eccl.1:13 And I have given my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that hath been done under the heavens. It is a sad travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.

That would include all the tortures humans endure, e.g. child birth.

The stated purpose of it all is to humble people.



That's all besides the point which is that God does torment/torture or allow His beings to be tormented/tortured for their own good.



Again this is besides the point that for all you know Hitler may have died a saved man. OTOH, if you end up lost, he'll be better off than you.



In my part of the world, a civilized country, they are acquitted & then helped with treatments, medicines & loving care until they - hopefully - recover.



If He knows what decisions will be made, then how can they have free will? How can free will even exist?

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No---it says God allowed Satan to do it---with restrictions.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

In the end---yes---it is all up to God. We either learn from it and turn to Him, as Job did or not. This was all done before Job died not after death in the LOF!! Obviously those in the LOF had not repented, for, again---they were devoured by the fire of God when attacking the city of God!! And no one comes out of that to live with God afterwards!

And it is free will---knowing what will happen and making it happen are 2 entirely different things!! I knew my stepdaughter was going to end up pregnant by the way she was acting with her boyfriend. It was no surprise when she did---I neither approved, nor planned it! I knew---but it was entirely her decision!

mmksparbud said:

No---it says God allowed Satan to do it---with restrictions.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

In the end---yes---it is all up to God. We either learn from it and turn to Him, as Job did or not. This was all done before Job died not after death in the LOF!! Obviously those in the LOF had not repented, for, again---they were devoured by the fire of God when attacking the city of God!! And no one comes out of that to live with God afterwards!

And it is free will---knowing what will happen and making it happen are 2 entirely different things!! I knew my stepdaughter was going to end up pregnant by the way she was acting with her boyfriend. It was no surprise when she did---I neither approved, nor planned it! I knew---but it was entirely her decision!

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Dear Lady: Mankind is a will, that will goes it's own way quite independent of their Creator who is the Will of all wills. Each little will is destined for reconciliation, for some in the present age, for the vast, vast majority in the ages to come when the glorious longing & determination of the Author consummates the all (ta pavnte) in Himself.

God IS Fire, in the now He is Fire, in the ages to come He is Fire.

The forever & evers = aions & aions.

Endlessness is expressed in the Scriptures by the simple phrase " no end " (Lk. 1:33; Dan. 7:14; Isa. 9:7).

The thought of permanence is also expressed in Heb. 7:16, “the power of an endless (or indissoluble) life,” and in I Pet. 1:4, “an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away.”

Now had the Holy Spirit wished to indicate true unendingness or true eternity as the time issue in the punishment and suffering of the lost, He could have used the word that He used in Rom. 1:20 to describe God’s "eternal power and Godhead, " literally God’s “perpetual” or “imperceptible” power and Godhead, one being unable to see to the end of it !

You see, had the Holy Spirit wanted to convey unendingness in reference to the punishment of the enemies of God, He could have used words that plainly denoted that, rather than the words “to the age… to the ages,” "to the age of the ages "to the ages of the ages, " etc., all which plainly denote SPANS OF TIME . -J. Preston Eby

Our Steady God

As the image of the invisible God, the radiance of His glory, the exact image of His Person, God's Son continues always, through thick and thin, steady as His Father: "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and into the eons." It's the character of Jesus because it's the character of Him who begat Him. For the Son, steady goes it, out from within His Father into the world, perfectly expressing that character of His Father by which He is unfazed in the face of the changing circumstances of this world, and especially unfazed by the enmity toward Him that characterizes, in the main, the present universal human condition.

That steadiness is the steadiness of love. The love that God is requires that He be unflinchingly steady whether He is loved or hated, obeyed or disobeyed, confessed or denied. He is never so conflicted that having been offended by us, He must set aside His love until proper punishment is handed out that satisfies His (supposed) need to have His holiness appeased:

"Sorry, I've got to hurt you, or hurt Someone standing in for you, or otherwise my righteousness stands in the way of my love for you."

Conventional evangelicalism sees the need of, and the plan of, salvation as central to scripture's story. But it's not.

What's central is what God planned before sin entered the picture, and what will remain when sin is gone. -John Gavazzoni-

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Our Steady God

I take the Living God seriously.

He declares death & hell are consummated in Himself.

I believe it.

He states He will draw all mankind unto Himself.

I believe Him.

He instructs His disciples to gather up leftover fish & bread that nothing be lost.

The souls of mankind for whom He is the propitiation & at-one-ment are more important than leftover elements of fish & bread?

I do not believe it, do you?

Please note:

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation (at-one-ment) for sins...

AND

Not for our sins only (monon & monos)

BUT

For the whole world.

The whole ungodly world!

What Love Is All About

It was a busy morning, approximately 8:30 am, when an elderly gentleman, in his 80’s arrived to have stitches removed from his thumb. He stated that he was in a hurry and that he had an appointment at 9:00 am. I took his vital signs, and had him take a seat, knowing it would be over an hour before someone would be able to see him. I saw him looking at his watch and decided, since I was not busy with another patient, I would evaluate his wound.

On exam it was well healed, so I talked to one of the doctors, got the needed supplies to remove his sutures and redressed his wound. While taking care of him, we began to engage in conversation. I asked him if he had a doctor’s appointment this morning, as he was in such a hurry. The gentleman told me no, that he needed to go to the nursing home to eat breakfast with his wife. I then inquired as to her health. He told me that she had been there for awhile and was a victim of Alzheimer’s Disease.

As we talked and I finished dressing his wound, I asked if she would be worried if he was a bit late. He replied that she no longer knew who he was, and hadn’t recognized him in five years. I was surprised, and asked him, “And you still go every morning, even though she doesn’t know who you are?” He smiled and patted my hand and said,

"She doesn’t know me, but I still know who she is."