Who Goes To Hell?

Jipsah · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
Correct me if I'm wrong here but wasn't Jesus and His disciples and all their relatives Jews and wouldn't they all have been exposed to the Jewish belief in hell?

Probably. But Jesus had a singular sdvantage, being God Himself, and wasn't bound by what the rabbis thought.

[qupote]Many Jews at that time believed in Gehenna as a place of fiery punishment and Jesus used the same word and He never said it did not have the meaning of "hell."[/quote] There's that "not" that you're so fond of again. It doesn't obtauin here either.

Many people claim, without evidence, that the concept of hell was copied from Greek paganism when there is credible, verifiable, historical evidence that there was already a Jewish belief in hell.

And since "hell", per se, was never mentioned in the Old Testament, the possibility of it being syncretistic can't be easily dismissed.

한국어를 읽습니까? 나는 한국어를 읽습니다.
나는 한국에서 15 년 동안 살고 일했습니다.

Poorly, just what little I got from my mom and from kind of desultory attendance at "Hangul haggyo" at church. My Korean kin were all out in California so we didn't see 'em often, and all my Korean cousins spoke English most of the time anyway. My wife is from Korea, but she says my pronounciation is hopeless and I need to stick to English. I wish I'd been able to actually talk to my maternal grandparents, but I guess we can catch up when me meet again. :crossrc:

Jipsah · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
I think this would be more efficacious if intoned in Latin.
Millwall licet ascendere ad SUMMUS Achaici; et utrumque potest misit ad Occidentem Ham Britanniarum Ledes Achaici unus.

Does have kind of a ring to it, doesn't it?

Zao is life · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
You obviously do not know the difference between "opinions" and credible, verifiable, historical evidence which I provide.
If you wished to study or discuss the beliefs and practices of the Jews in Israel before and at the time of Jesus, what evidence would you review?
When you wish to compare verses please quote them and show any similarity/difference.

If the Rabbis were all correct in their opinions, all Jews would believe in Jesus. You seek the wrong sources then believe the wrong sources because you go outside the Bible.

Zao is life · May 5, 2020

Jipsah said:
Hey, I make most of my living these days renting out property that I own. I have found that makes me a "rentier", and a scourge on humanity. So since I'm a Really Bad Guy anyway, why not give product endorsements using my admittedly questionable title? Since it's unlikely that anyone will be able to prove that I'm not the rightful heir to the British Crown, then I submit that it must be assumed that I am.

(BTW, when I assume the throne, my first official act willbe to issue a decree that ordering that Millwall be promoted to the Premier League, and both West Ham and Leeds United be sent down to League One. So let it be written, so let it be done.)

Aha, so you want to use intrigue to make more people become royalists.

Der Alte · May 5, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
If the Rabbis were all correct in their opinions, all Jews would believe in Jesus. You seek the wrong sources then believe the wrong sources because you go outside the Bible.

I acknowledged that there were factions with Judaism, Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes etc. The fact that there were factions does not prove that there was not a distinct belief in hell which I documented from 3 sources.
I pointed out the similarities between what Jesus said about the after life and what many Jews believed.
Jesus criticized the Jews on several occasions but He never criticized the belief in hell.

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Your entire post has been addressed multiple times in multiple ways, such as these responses:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
First, what makes a translation literal? Wait, don't tell me that is a version that supports UR teaching.

It means it adheres more to a word for word rendering than, say, for example, a paraphrase version.

Why not do an internet search of "Literal vs idio[ma]tic translations"? Which leads to, to give several examples, stuff like this:

"Larson...describes a continuun ranging from the "very literal" through the "literal" the "modified literal", the "inconsistent mixture", the "near idiomatic", the "idiomatic"...to the "unduly free"..."literal" or "word for word" translation is usually understood to be an attempt to be "faithful" to the original."

(Teaching Translation and Interpreting 2: Insights, Aims, Visions : Papers ...edited by Cay Dollerup, Anne Lindegaard, Annette Lindegaard, p.152)

Teaching Translation and Interpreting 2

"...the debate over whether a literal or idiomatic translation was the better approach.

...Tuggy, David. 2003. “The literal-idiomatic Bible translation debate from the perspective of cognitive grammar.” In Kurt Feyaerts, ed., The Bible through metaphor and translation: a cognitive semantic perspective, pp. 239-288. Bern: Peter Lang, 2003."

The Biblia Hebraica Blog: Literal vs. Idiomatic Bible Translation Method

Here is an informative article showing how non literal, idio[ma]tic & deceptive the translation "forever and ever" is in the KJV, NIV and many other Bible versions:

Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?

"Idiomatic or Idiotic?
ORIGINAL.......................................ENGLISHED.... STULTIFIED
[The Bible is the]............................book of books..book and book
[The Lord's Coming is the]....................day of days....day and day
shir eshirim..................................song of songs..song and song
qdsh equdshim.................................holy of holies.holy and holy
kurios kuridn.................................Lord of lords..Lord and lord
oasileus basileon..............................King of kings.King and king
aionos tdn aidnon............................ eon of eons....ever and ever (R.V.) throughout all ages, world without end. (A.V.)"

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab...ernal+Torment+or+Universal+Reconciliation.pdf

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

Der Alter said:
I have quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible several times but it is not "literal" enough for them.

Does it use deceptive mis-translations like "forever and ever"?

Der Alter said:
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church.
Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”

So just by being born in Greece it makes a Greek scholar your "Pope" of all Greek scholars & the rest are just amateurs in comparison?

The native Greek language spoken by those scholars born in Greece is not NT Koine Greek, but modern Greek. It is quite different after almost 2000 years distance from Christ.

Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who were born into NT Koine Greek speaking cultures and were Early Church Father & church leading Universalists, to know the meaning of NT Greek words.

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

Der Alter said:
…..Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

First, that Greek word aionios does not occur in 1 Tim.1:17. Secondly, nothing in the verses say they are "synonymous" with anything. Third, you simply state that without any reason, evidence, logic or proof to support it. You might as well have said "dog is synonymous with cat, they both have a tail". Let's see your evidence that dog = cat.

Your posts repeatedly assume a "contrast" somehow gave you a "definition". (Yet you never state how). That's like saying a sentence with a contrast between "eonian life" & "death" in it proves that "eonian" means "eternal". That's the level of your logic in your post. You assume as proven what you have failed to prove.

Der Alter said:
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

Der Alter said:
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

"The king of the underworld is immortal, cute, a killer, etc". To use your type of faulty reasoning/logic, since "immortal" is paired with "cute", cute must logically be defined as eternal. Wrong. And the king must be eternally cute. Wrong. And because immortal is paired with killer, the king must be eternally killing for all eternity. Wrong. And killer must be defined as eternal. Wrong.

In another post you committed the same error, saying: "Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality." ". Same idea as my example above with the king of the underworld. Faulty logic. Faulty reasoning. Hence an unproven, unwarranted assumption.

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
Several years ago I was watching a holiday special, Christmas or Easter, I don't remember. The camera was following some tourists in Jerusalem. They attempted to enter one of the "Holy" locations. They were blocked by a Muslim. One of them said "We only want to worship God." The Muslim said "GD your god to hell." How will God change that man's heart and mind and save him after death?

Why don't you ask Love Omnipotent when you get there? Is anything too difficult for Him?

Is His hand cut off that it cannot save? Are all things possible with the Almighty of unfailing love?

Why doesn't He appear to everyone like Saul, the worst of sinners, on the Damascus road? Or doubting Thomas who stubbornly refused to believe - in spite of all he had seen from Jesus for years & the apostles testimonies - unless he saw the Lord with his own two eyes & stuck his hands inside of Him?

Der Alter said:
And why doesn't He do it in this life and keep the man from being punished for some shorter or longer period?

Be sure to ask Love Omnipotent when you get there. You'll be in for some surprises.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1213 · May 5, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are you claiming that Damnationism and Universal Restoration have no biblical basis?

Please tell first what do you mean with those?

1213 · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
...it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation...

Sorry, I don’t see enough reason to think it doesn’t mean destruction.

Saint Steven · May 5, 2020

1213 said:
Please tell first what do you mean with those?

Sure.
There are three common doctrinal views of the final judgement.
1) Damnationism (the "lost" will burn forever in hell with no hope of escape)
2) Annihilationism (the "lost" will be incinerated with nothing left but ashes)
3) Universal Restorationism (No one is "lost". All of creation will be restored, including all of humankind)

Does that help?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Are you claiming that Damnationism and Universal Restoration have no biblical basis?

Der Alte · May 5, 2020

1213 said:
Sorry, I don’t see enough reason to think it doesn’t mean destruction.

The word translated "destruction" is "apolummi" From the definition I posted here is a list of things "apolummi" is used for which are NOT destruction. Is a lost son who returns destroyed? Are lost sheep "destroyed?
.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

You are free to ignore that and believe whatever hyou want to.

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
It does matter when someone either ignores and/or misrepresents my post.
Here is it again.
The serious reader will note that shortly after the Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch in Ge Hinnom, valley of Hinnom, "'Gehenna' therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
Later in the article The Jews refer to sheol as "hell." One place two different names.
"When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them.

Jewish Encyclopedia,Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.

You consider Judith & The Book of Enoch to be "scripture" along with Isaiah & 2 Kings?

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?

Der Alter said:
The book of Enoch and Judith and others not in the Christian canon are considered scripture by the Jews.

There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

Judith an "Apocryphal book".
JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked

"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."

"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks

"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine) Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?

Speaking of legends:

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Der Alter said:
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.

1213 · May 6, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Sure.
There are three common doctrinal views of the final judgement.
1) Damnationism (the "lost" will burn forever in hell with no hope of escape)
2) Annihilationism (the "lost" will be incinerated with nothing left but ashes)
3) Universal Restorationism (No one is "lost". All of creation will be restored, including all of humankind)

Does that help?

Thank you, that was helpful.

Damnation can be true, even if person is destroyed in hell. That one is destroyed, doesn’t necessary mean that there are only ashes left.

Restorationism, if it means that all live eternally, I don’t think it is taught in the Bible, because according to the Bible the wage of sin is death and eternal life for righteous and not all are righteous.

FineLinen · May 6, 2020

This is a personal message by goofus F.L.

FineLinen · May 6, 2020

We shall be strangers no more! It is evident from your posts you have realized the vastness of our Father's great love.

This road into Him is in various degrees of glory. Some of that road involves great distress as He expands us into Himself and the mysteries that are His dwelling place. That wonderful word "these are they which made their way thru great distress" is the foundation for new avenues culminating in being part of that mighty segment known as an overcomer.

The road for me began 62 years ago as a 15 year old lad who grew up in the largest protestant church in Canada. Never once did I ever hear the Gospel proclaimed, lots of stuff that could not satisfy the deep longing that only He could fill.

I will leave it there for now, but the day I was dragged kicking and screaming to Hope Gospel Church in Toronto, in five short minutes the purpose for my life began to break as a wave over me & I knew the journey into Him had begun.

AgapeLove keep posting out of Him. There is life in your words!

Within Him & for Him, F.L.

Der Alte · May 6, 2020

ClementofA said:
You consider Judith & The Book of Enoch to be "scripture" along with Isaiah & 2 Kings?...
The words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.

Your opinion or my opinion about the book of Judith or Enoch is totally irrelevant. Your presumed interpretation of either book is also irrelevant. Your private interpretation of the Greek words in Judith, Enoch or any other OT book in the LXX is totally meaningless.
As I have quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia, and the Talmud the Jews held certain beliefs based on those books in addition to other OT books. The Jewish understanding/interpretation of their Jewish scriptures are the only thing that matters.
There is no objection to my quotes from the the three sources you could make that mean anything at all.

ClementofA · May 6, 2020

Der Alter said:
Your opinion or my opinion about the book of Judith or Enoch is totally irrelevant. Your presumed interpretation of either book is also irrelevant. Your private interpretation of the Greek words in Judith, Enoch or any other OT book in the LXX is totally meaningless.
As I have quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia, and the Talmud the Jews held certain beliefs based on those books in addition to other OT books. The Jewish understanding/interpretation of their Jewish scriptures are the only thing that matters.
There is no objection to my quotes from the the three sources you could make that mean anything at all.

You were wrong about the books of Enoch & Judith being Scripture & my opinion was correct. Fact.

You said: "The Jewish understanding/interpretation of their Jewish scriptures are the only thing that matters."

Say what! Enoch & Judith are not Jewish Scriptures. Neither are any non Christian Jewish opinions equal to the inspired Christian Scriptures, including those opinions you carefully cherry picked to the exclusion of all others for your own agenda.

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Saint Steven · May 6, 2020

1213 said:
Thank you, that was helpful.

Damnation can be true, even if person is destroyed in hell. That one is destroyed, doesn’t necessary mean that there are only ashes left.

Restorationism, if it means that all live eternally, I don’t think it is taught in the Bible, because according to the Bible the wage of sin is death and eternal life for righteous and not all are righteous.

Glad to help.
What do you make of this?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

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