Has a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus' eclipsed 'Justification by Faith Alone'?

Broken Fence · May 3, 2020

crossnote said:
No, let’s not...
Isaiah 8:20 KJV
[20] To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Again, I’m not here trying to start a 2nd Reformation or similar. I just wanted to bring to the attention of some that our justification is foundational to our walk.

If someone asks me ‘what must I do to be saved?’ I will point them to what Christ did, rather than just say ‘you need to have a personal relationship with Jesus’.

When a struggling Christian (the reason I originally posted this in ‘Christian Advice’) lays out their continuing failures, I find upon examination, that their foundational understanding of Christ’s work for them is woefully lacking and will point them back to the work of Christ and our justification.

I would tell them to ask Jesus into their heart, believe the gospel, if you believe in your heart Christ died for your sins. God raised Him from the dead for your justification. Then you are saved.

crossnote · May 3, 2020

Cbowles said:
I would tell them to ask Jesus into their heart, believe the gospel, if you believe in your heart Christ died for your sins. God raised Him from the dead for your justification. Then you are saved.

What if their response is, “I’ve tried that, but nothing happened”, what would you tell them?

Broken Fence · May 3, 2020

crossnote said:
What if their response is, “I’ve tried that, but nothing happened”, what would you tell them?

Well just because nothing happened doesn't mean nothing happened, according to the Bible you are saved. The closer you draw to God or seek Him the closer He will draw to you. The Holy Spirit is not a parler trick if you desire spiritual gifts you have to earnestly seek God for them.

crossnote · May 3, 2020

Cbowles said:
Well just because nothing happened doesn't mean nothing happened, according to the Bible you are saved. The closer you draw to God or seek Him the closer He will draw to you. The Holy Spirit is not a parler trick if you desire spiritual gifts you have to earnestly seek God for them.

I can't judge whether or not a person truly was convicted of their sin and thus sincerely approached Christ crucified as their only hope and Savior, but I do know after years of helping at a men's 'half-way' home there were a few 'gamers' saying the right words just to get in. God knows.

Broken Fence · May 3, 2020

crossnote said:
I can't judge whether or not a person truly was convicted of their sin and thus sincerely approached Christ crucified as their only hope and Savior, but I do know after years of helping at a men's 'half-way' home there were a few 'gamers' saying the right words just to get in. God knows.

Good point God knows your heart, better than you. Seek God and you shall live. Amos 5:4

Danigt22 · May 3, 2020

crossnote said:
Not only do they demand but God provides for what God demands/commands...

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Php 2:12-13)

From this day Ill put more faith in Christ and live in freedom from the law, what he did for me is bigger than any sin I have and will ever have. I think now I understand the epistle to the Romans. This gives me a better perspective about my sanctification.

K Watt · May 4, 2020

crossnote said:
The clarion call of the Reformation was that a person was justified freely by grace alone through faith alone.

Even Luther said 'justification is the article by which a Church stands or falls.'

Yet today it seems the clarion (false) call is 'have a personal relationship with Jesus'.

The problem here is 'which Jesus?'. The Jesus that follows you through life, making a checklist to see if you are naughty or nice or the Jesus who took God's wrath and lived a perfectly righteous life in our stead that he may declare us forgiven and righteous...not on our account but on His account.

Failure to grasp this article leads many Christians to despair confusing law and Gospel, justification with sanctification and ending up a hopeless basket case fearing whether they are saved or not.

Of course there is the aspect of 'a personal relationship with Jesus', but it is not to overshadow that fact that we have been justified (declared righteous) on account of Jesus Christ.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 2
6God will repay each one according to his deeds. 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

crossnote · May 4, 2020

K Watt said:
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 2
6God will repay each one according to his deeds. 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

These are all ripped from their proper context. Which one of these do you want me to show the fallacy of your attempt to prove faith+works justifies before God?

K Watt · May 4, 2020

crossnote said:
These are all ripped from their proper context. Which one of these do you want me to show the fallacy of your attempt to prove faith+works justifies before God?

Any one will do. There are many more where they come from.

Do you believe our actions are unrelated to salvation?

crossnote · May 4, 2020

Danigt22 said:
From this day Ill put more faith in Christ and live in freedom from the law, what he did for me is bigger than any sin I have and will ever have. I think now I understand the epistle to the Romans. This gives me a better perspective about my sanctification.

Yes and what He did for you was PURER than any righteous act we could offer in hopes of meriting His favor. We offer our 'righteous' acts out of a heart of thanksgiving rather than effort to earn brownie points with God.

crossnote · May 4, 2020

K Watt said:
Any one will do. There are many more where they come from.

Do you believe our actions are unrelated to salvation?

Ok, they are related but they don't justify us before God. Our actions are a fruit of faith. That's what James was speaking about when referring to Abraham...
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (Jas 2:21-22)

Remember, Abraham was justified before God long before he offered Isaac.

Genesis 15:6 (KJV) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 (KJV) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

K Watt · May 4, 2020

crossnote said:
Ok, they are related but they don't justify us before God. Our actions are a fruit of faith. That's what James was speaking about when referring to Abraham...
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (Jas 2:21-22)

Remember was justified before God long before he offered Isaac.

Genesis 15:6 (KJV) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 (KJV) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

James clearly says we are not justified by faith alone.

Paul says we reap what we sow. What comes first, reaping or sowing?

We can't save ourselves, but we must cooperate with God's grace in order to be saved.

In the parable of the sheep and goats, what distinguished the two, their actions, or their beliefs?

crossnote · May 4, 2020

K Watt said:
James clearly says we are not justified by faith alone.

Paul says we reap what we sow. What comes first, reaping or sowing?

We can't save ourselves, but we must cooperate with God's grace in order to be saved.

In the parable of the sheep and goats, what distinguished the two, their actions, or their beliefs?

James is speaking in terms of our justification before men who need to 'see' our faith in deeds. God sees our heart and that's why He declared Abraham as righteous before he did any deeds. Or are you saying James and Paul contradict each other?

Reaping and sowing has to do with rewards, not our justification.

How much 'cooperation' must we add to what Christ did for us in order to be saved?

Despite Bishop Tony's phony declaration, "The Reformation is over", it really isn't until Rome get's back to the truths of scripture.

Albion · May 4, 2020

K Watt said:
James clearly says we are not justified by faith alone.

If you read the entire epistle, however, it is apparent that what he means is that we are not saved by claiming only (i.e. alone) to have Faith. Not without a change in your values or lifestyle which necessarily come with having Faith.

In the parable of the sheep and goats, what distinguished the two, their actions, or their beliefs?

The question should be "Why did they believe and act differently?"

Danigt22 · May 4, 2020

crossnote said:
Yes and what He did for you was PURER than any righteous act we could offer in hopes of meriting His favor. We offer our 'righteous' acts out of a heart of thanksgiving rather than effort to earn brownie points with God.

I was more afraid of being rejected, but I understand now. You open my eyes, I will keep my sanctification process as a way to say thank you.

K Watt · May 5, 2020

crossnote said:
James is speaking in terms of our justification before men who need to 'see' our faith in deeds. God sees our heart and that's why He declared Abraham as righteous before he did any deeds. Or are you saying James and Paul contradict each other?

Reaping and sowing has to do with rewards, not our justification.

How much 'cooperation' must we add to what Christ did for us in order to be saved?

Despite Bishop Tony's phony declaration, "The Reformation is over", it really isn't until Rome get's back to the truths of scripture.

You are adding a lot of words to scripture. I think you may not realize that you are inserting your dogma where it isn't actually written.

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

By rewards, do you mean salvation? If so, then I agree, and so does Paul:

The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Only God knows who will be saved. The bible is full of admonitions about cooperating with his will in order to be saved.

Matt 7:21
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

John 15:10
10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

K Watt · May 5, 2020

Albion said:
If you read the entire epistle, however, it is apparent that what he means is that we are not saved by claiming only (i.e. alone) to have Faith. Not without a change in your values or lifestyle which necessarily come with having Faith.

The question should be "Why did they believe and act differently?"

It is clear that James wants us to know that we are not saved by faith alone. A true conversion to Christ does not always come with faith. Consider the seeds choked by the cares of the world.

I think the question is, "Why did Jesus warn us that in order to be saved we must do righteous deeds?"

crossnote · May 5, 2020

K Watt said:
You are adding a lot of words to scripture. I think you may not realize that you are inserting your dogma where it isn't actually written.

O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

By rewards, do you mean salvation? If so, then I agree, and so does Paul:

The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Only God knows who will be saved. The bible is full of admonitions about cooperating with his will in order to be saved.

Matt 7:21
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

John 15:10
10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

This theology of yours is too mixed up, I can’t even begin to reply.
Do you even know what ‘gift’ means’?

John 4:10 KJV
[10] Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Acts 11:17 KJV
[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Romans 5:15-18 KJV
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 6:23 KJV
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 9:15 KJV
[15] Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James 1:17 KJV
[17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

These aren’t even speaking of the gifts of the Spirit.
Learn the meaning of gift and then maybe we can have a meaningful conversation.

Albion · May 5, 2020

K Watt said:
It is clear that James wants us to know that we are not saved by faith alone.

It's quite the contrary.

A true conversion to Christ does not always come with faith.

I've heard statements before that contradicted themselves, but this one is almost unbeatable in that category.

But okay, go ahead and show us how Faith in Christ does not require Faith.

K Watt · May 5, 2020

crossnote said:
This theology of yours is too mixed up, I can’t even begin to reply.
Do you even know what ‘gift’ means’?

John 4:10 KJV
[10] Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Acts 11:17 KJV
[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Romans 5:15-18 KJV
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 6:23 KJV
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 9:15 KJV
[15] Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

James 1:17 KJV
[17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

These aren’t even speaking of the gifts of the Spirit.
Learn the meaning of gift and then maybe we can have a meaningful conversation.

God's grace is a gift. What will we do with it?

Romans 11
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Matt 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Phil 3
11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. 15All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view.

Has a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus' eclipsed 'Justification by Faith Alone'?

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