Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
Why does it say "especially those who believe", etc...
Again, it is a free gift that comes or is offered to all, but all do not accept it, etc, which is required to be saved, etc...
And some just do not and do not ever, etc...
God Bless!

I might have an answer for that. Here is the definition of Malista from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. Note the second definition, "most assuredly, certainly." .

μάλιστα (superl. of the adv. μάλα; Hom.+).
① to an unusual degree, most of all, above all, especially, particularly, (very) greatly Ac 20:38; 1 Ti 4:10; 5:17; 2 Ti 4:13; Tit 1:10; Phlm 16; 1 Cl 13:1; Dg 1; 3:1; IEph 20:2; IPhld ins; MPol 13:1; Hv 1, 1, 8. καὶ μ. and above all, particularly (Plut., Mor. 835e; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 27; Just., D. 84, 4) Ac 25:26; 1 Ti 5:8; Hv 1, 2, 4. μ. δέ but especially (Il. 1, 16; Lesbonax Gramm. [II A.D.] p. 8 [ed. RMüller 1900]; TestAbr B 4 p. 109, 6 [Stone p. 66]; Jos., Vi. 14; Just., D. 4, 5; 48, 2) Gal 6:10; Phil 4:22; 2 Pt 2:10; IPol 3:1; Hm 12, 1, 2; Hs 8, 6, 5; 9, 10, 7. μ. γνώστην ὄντα σε since you are outstandingly familiar Ac 26:3 (cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 26 §100 ὁ μάλιστα ἐχθρός=the bitterest enemy).
② marker of high level of certitude, in answer to a question, most assuredly, certainly 1 Cl 43:6 (Just., A II, 2, 18; D. 49, 2 al.).—DELG s.v. μάλα. M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 613). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

ClementofA · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times.
He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times.
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi/the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

XYZ said:
Yep did you notice the "MANY" does not mean the "ALL"? Again did you know that the "MANY" are the "JUST"?

The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".

Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

agapelove · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
Yes scripture shows that children were sacrificed to Molech in the valley of Hinnom but had you extended me the simple courtesy of actually reading my post you would have learned from Jewish sources who know what they are talking about.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA
Jewish Encyclopedia Online
This is the reason Gehenna was used for "hell." Not all that drivel you get from your favorite UR websites.

Why do you assume I did not read your post? I understand why many Jews equated Gehenna with hell. I understand the origin of the tradition. Nothing that you have shared shows me that Jesus was using this tradition when he spoke about Gehenna.

Instead maybe YOU did not care enough to read my OP where I indicated why I do not believe Jesus used Gehenna this way.

Der Alter said:
Nonsense! A patently false narrative concocted by UR-ites with an agenda. See above.
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

Der Alter said:
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
You are free to reject all the credible, verifiable, historical evidence and continue to spread the false narrative you get from UR websites.

Please do not deter with irrelevant scriptures.

Saint Steven · May 4, 2020

FROM TIME TO ETERNITY

This phenomenon called time was created by God for man. Why? Time is the womb from which God is birthing a people like unto Himself. We get the germ, the beginning and foretaste of eternity in time, but this is only the seed of eternal life. This womb of time is provided to aid man in his development, to assist him in preparation for a new, totally spiritual existence beyond time, beyond the last age, when the umbilical cord is cut, in a state of existence called eternity. Man, as he is dealt with by God, is passing from a gross, largely material consciousness, into a glorious spiritual existence. Time serves only as an instrument to help man, to give him time and experience to develop into that new state of being. In time there is change - in eternity there is no change. All change and development must take place in time.

Thank God! we are being changed! But that means that the life of God within is still in a limited, imperfect, underdeveloped state. That life as to our condition and state of being is limited, imperfect, and in some measure immature. God has dispensed that life into us in time, that through a process of time with its experiences the spiritual life may be perfected and matured, brought to the fullness of that which HE HIMSELF IS. When the process is completed and we are like Him fully and see Him as He is, there will BE NO MORE CHANGE. We will then truly know what ETERNAL LIFE is! But as long as the life within is passing through the process of change, growth, and development, it is not viewed as eternal, unchangeable life, but as the LIFE OF THE AGES, life undergoing the dealings of God in time.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
FROM TIME TO ETERNITY
This phenomenon called time was created by God for man. Why? Time is the womb from which God is birthing a people like unto Himself. We get the germ, the beginning and foretaste of eternity in time, but this is only the seed of eternal life. This womb of time is provided to aid man in his development, to assist him in preparation for a new, totally spiritual existence beyond time, beyond the last age, when the umbilical cord is cut, in a state of existence called eternity. Man, as he is dealt with by God, is passing from a gross, largely material consciousness, into a glorious spiritual existence. Time serves only as an instrument to help man, to give him time and experience to develop into that new state of being. In time there is change - in eternity there is no change. All change and development must take place in time.
Thank God! we are being changed! But that means that the life of God within is still in a limited, imperfect, underdeveloped state. That life as to our condition and state of being is limited, imperfect, and in some measure immature. God has dispensed that life into us in time, that through a process of time with its experiences the spiritual life may be perfected and matured, brought to the fullness of that which HE HIMSELF IS. When the process is completed and we are like Him fully and see Him as He is, there will BE NO MORE CHANGE. We will then truly know what ETERNAL LIFE is! But as long as the life within is passing through the process of change, growth, and development, it is not viewed as eternal, unchangeable life, but as the LIFE OF THE AGES, life undergoing the dealings of God in time.
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

All of that UR doctrine and all the UR-its follow it uncritically. But note not one verse of scripture. Just the unsupported opinion of one person.

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

agapelove said:
Why do you assume I did not read your post? I understand why many Jews equated Gehenna with hell. I understand the origin of the tradition. Nothing that you have shared shows me that Jesus was using this tradition when he spoke about Gehenna.
Instead maybe YOU did not care enough to read my OP where I indicated why I do not believe Jesus used Gehenna this way.

I don't care what you believe unless you can back it up with scripture. You claim that Jesus was using Gehenna in a different way. I don't recall Jesus telling His audience "Hey guys, when you say Gehenna and hades I know you mean the place of eternal fiery punishment but I'm using it in a completely different way."
.....What would first century Jews who believed in what we call "hell" have understood when Jesus said "Gehenna" and "Hades?" In Luke Jesus described αδη/Hades as a place of fiery torment from which the rich man could not leave. In other verses Jesus described "Gehenna" as a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.
.....Many Jews believed "they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, ..And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Please tell me how they would have understood that Jesus was using Hades and Gehenna in a different way?

FineLinen · May 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
When the process is completed and we are like Him fully and see Him as He is, there will BE NO MORE CHANGE.

Saint Steve: This is precisely what our Abba has determined. This is no 1/2 baked process, but one running to full completion in the Author who is the Finisher of what He begins! The radical all!

"So everyone come here, toward Me!--all those constantly weary and exhausted from toil and labor, as well as folks having been caused to carry a load, and continuing burdened down--and I, Myself, will refresh you and cause you folks to rest. At once lift up My crossbeam (or: the yoke which is Me, the balance beam that comes from and pertains to Me) upon you people, and instantly learn from Me, because I am (or: I continuously exist being) mild-tempered (gentle, kind and considerate) and humble (low) in the heart, and you 'folks will find refreshment and discover rest in and for your souls (the whole inner person; the mind, emotions and nerves)' [Jer. 6:16] You see, My crossbeam (or: the yoke which is Me; the balance beam that comes from and pertains to Me) is useful and kindly obliging, and My load (the burden that is Me and which pertains to Me) continues being light (not heavy)." (JMT)

Neogaia777 · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
I might have an answer for that. Here is the definition of Malista from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. Note the second definition, "most assuredly, certainly." .

μάλιστα (superl. of the adv. μάλα; Hom.+).
① to an unusual degree, most of all, above all, especially, particularly, (very) greatly Ac 20:38; 1 Ti 4:10; 5:17; 2 Ti 4:13; Tit 1:10; Phlm 16; 1 Cl 13:1; Dg 1; 3:1; IEph 20:2; IPhld ins; MPol 13:1; Hv 1, 1, 8. καὶ μ. and above all, particularly (Plut., Mor. 835e; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 27; Just., D. 84, 4) Ac 25:26; 1 Ti 5:8; Hv 1, 2, 4. μ. δέ but especially (Il. 1, 16; Lesbonax Gramm. [II A.D.] p. 8 [ed. RMüller 1900]; TestAbr B 4 p. 109, 6 [Stone p. 66]; Jos., Vi. 14; Just., D. 4, 5; 48, 2) Gal 6:10; Phil 4:22; 2 Pt 2:10; IPol 3:1; Hm 12, 1, 2; Hs 8, 6, 5; 9, 10, 7. μ. γνώστην ὄντα σε since you are outstandingly familiar Ac 26:3 (cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 26 §100 ὁ μάλιστα ἐχθρός=the bitterest enemy).
② marker of high level of certitude, in answer to a question, most assuredly, certainly 1 Cl 43:6 (Just., A II, 2, 18; D. 49, 2 al.).—DELG s.v. μάλα. M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 613). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

How can someone be more saved than another...?

Especially since we all get an equal reward, etc...?

Was more of what I was saying, or pointing at or to, etc...

God Bless!

FineLinen · May 4, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
How can someone be more saved than another...?

Especially since we all get an equal reward, etc...?

There are many dimensions of fellowship in the Christ. It is not a matter of being "more saved". The Master had 12 disciples whom He called into His fellowship. Of those called out ones there was Peter, James & John. And, out of those three there was John who leaned upon His Bosom.

agapelove · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
I don't care what you believe unless you can back it up with scripture. You claim that Jesus was using Gehenna in a different way. I don't recall Jesus telling His audience "Hey guys, when you say Gehenna and hades I know you mean the place of eternal fiery punishment but I'm using it in a completely different way."
.....What would first century Jews who believed in what we call "hell" have understood when Jesus said "Gehenna" and "Hades?" In Luke Jesus described αδη/Hades as a place of fiery torment from which the rich man could not leave. In other verses Jesus described "Gehenna" as a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.
.....Many Jews believed "they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, ..And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Please tell me how they would have understood that Jesus was using Hades and Gehenna in a different way?

John 13:28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.
Matthew 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
Luke 18:34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
John 12:16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.
Mark 9:32 But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him.
Luke 9:45 But they did not understand this statement, and it was concealed from them so that they would not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask Him about this statement.

Hmm it seems to me that Jesus' main concern was never to be understood.

I have given you evidence as to why I believe Jesus was using the Jeremiah tradition when referring to Gehenna so please go see for yourself.

When Jesus describes Gehenna as a place where "the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," he is alluding to the Jews' perception of the Valley of Hinnom. Jeremiah does this as well in Jeremiah 17:27 "I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." Here Jeremiah is obviously referring to Hinnom (not hell) and yet he says the fire cannot be quenched? He is speaking figuratively.

You quote the Talmud yet you fail to see that even within the Jewish community there was NO UNIFORM WAY of defining hell. Many Talmudic rabbis believed that "Hell/Gehenna/Sheol" could be a place of afterlife purification (Zechariah 13:9 I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried). They also believed that God could rescue people from it (1 Samuel 2:6 The LORD brings death and gives life; He brings down to sheol and raises up.) They also believed the righteous could go there (Psalm 49:14 Like sheep they are destined for sheol.)

So please stop assuming you know everything about the Jews of Jesus' time based off your Encyclopedia pages.

ClementofA · May 4, 2020

Der Alter said:
…..In these 9 verses, Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.
[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

1) The Greek word there is not aionios, as you state, but aiona meaning age, eon.
2) So your conclusion is, therefore, wrong.
3) Jesus contrasts the bread eaten by those who died with the bread that will make those who eat it live EIS "the age". EIS: to, into.
4) In light of 1) above, "forever" is a misleading, erroneous, deceptive translation.
5) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.6:58 This is the Bread which descends out of heaven. Not according as the fathers ate and died; he who is masticating this Bread shall be living for the eon (CLV)
6) Of course an "age", i.e. "eon", can be finite.
7) That doesn't mean believers live only for a finite period. (There is no "only" in the verse).
8) The verse doesn't address the question of how long they live or eternal destinies of anyone. Other Scriptures do that, such as when we are told we will be "immortal", cannot die anymore, will always be with the Lord, all will be saved eventually, each in their own order, etc.
9) You say: "If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” But you err, as life is opposite(antonym) to death: Thesaurus results for DEATH
10) Moreover those who are believers during church age history who obtain "life eonian" in the finite millennial age will also receive immortality, i.e. endless life.
11) So their life will be eternal, but not due to the word "aionion".

Der Alter said:
[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
See note on ou mé at bottom. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

1) In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and the translators left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it!
2) Your quoted version is misleading, unlike a number of more literal versions such as:
Jn.10:28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand." (CLV)
3)"Definition of eonian...variant spelling of aeonian"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eonia
"aeonian, from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic"
Definition of AEONIAN
4) Concerning the alleged claim: "If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’”
a) Aion most certainly means an age, e.g.: Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age
b) Obviously an "age" (eon) can be a finite period.
c) Just because no one shall be "snatching" a believer out of Jesus' hand does not necessarily mean that the believer has "eternal security" or that the believer cannot - jump - out of His hand, i.e. fall away, backslide, & reject Him thereafter.
d) In the larger context of the passage i suggest that Jesus is not addressing final eternal destinies at all, but contrasting destinies in the eon to come.
e) Scripture speaks of multiple eons to come, so arguably the eon to come is finite.
f) "And I am giving them life eonian". As long as they believe in Him till they die "in Christ" or until His return. If they believe only "for a while" (Lk.8:13) then all bets are off, including remaining in His "hand".
g) "they should by no means be perishing for the eon". If they have believed till their death or His return, then they won't perish for the millennial eon. Unlike some others who may (or do) die then (Isa.65:20).
h) They will also have immortality & be always with the Lord.
i) By virtue of having immortality they will have endless life, not because they obtained eonian life, life in the eon to come.
j) So the passage has an alternate interpretation without requiring eonian mean "eternal" as you claim it does there.
5. Der Alter states: "If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” " Why should they have to be the "opposite" of one another & not instead just separate pieces of info Jesus gives in the verse re blessings to be obtained by those who continue in faith?

Der Alter said:
[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

1) No, there is at least one other explanation that refutes your claim. Namely that believers who are promised aionion(eonian) life - if aionion(eonian) life is in a finite period, such as the millennial eon - could not perish because they will have immortality when Christ returns at the beginning of the millennial eon. Assuming they keep on believing till Christ's return or they died "in Christ" - in which case they will obtain immortality when He returns (1 Cor.15:51-56) - and do not merely believe "for a while" (Lk.8:13).
2) So your argument is not only unsound logically but also unscriptural. Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures re immortality.
3) A better translation is not "believeth", but "is believing" since the requirement is a continual believing, not a temporary believing just "for a while" (Lk.8:13).
4) Your quoted version is misleading, unlike a number of more literal versions such as:
John3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." 16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian." (CLV)
5)"Definition of eonian...variant spelling of aeonian"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eonia
"aeonian, from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic" Definition of AEONIAN
6) The next verse states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” Перевод ἵνα с греческого на все языки

The "result" of God sending His Son into the world will be to save it (Jn.3:17).

Der Alter said:
[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

1) Much of what i've already pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) Re the comment above "unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." Of course that can happen when any of His followers believe only "for a while" (Lk.8:13) or makes shipwreck of their faith (1 Tim.1:19) or does not continue in faith (Col.1:21-23).
4) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (CLV)
6) The "not coming into condemnation" in the verse is conditionally dependent on the "believing". If one eternally believes then one will eternally never come into condemnation.
7) Believing continually also results in eonian life, but that doesn't mean eonian life, life in the coming eon, or the eon itself, is eternal.
8) Although those who obtain life in the coming eon will have immortality, which is eternal life.
9) And as they will be always with the Lord (1 Thess.4:17) & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28), they will be blessed & never come into condemnation.
10) Der Alter states: "In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” " They are in the same verse, but it is continual belief until one has immortality - not aionios - that results in "shall not come into condemnation" & "passed from death unto life".
11. Der Alter says: "“Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." That is not necessarily the case. The reason being that not coming into condemnation does not have to be dependent on aionion life meaning eternal life. Something that you appear to assume. Jesus doesn't condemn the person, not because they will attain to eonian life (life in the millenial eon), but because they believe in Him! So your argument fails.

continued in my next post...

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLV)
4) The fact is we all have been "stubborn", so if your reasoning were correct, then no one could ever be saved!
5) But the wrath or "indignation" is only on the "stubborn" unbeliever as long as he remains stubborn. Once we ceased being stubborn & believed, God's wrath was no longer on us.
6) Nothing in Jn.3:36 states that the stubborn cannot turn to God postmortem.
7) The verse speaks of one who "shall not see life". What "life"? The eonian life of the context that the believer will obtain? The life of God?
8) What's to say that this "eonian life" is not life in the next & finite eon, e.g. a 1000 year eon? Jesus says much the same in Mk.10:30 & Lk.18:30, that believers will receive "in the coming eon, life eonian".
9) Yet Scripture often speaks of multiple eons to come, so the coming eon must be finite. So why would the "life eonian" obtained in it (Mk.10:30) also not be finite?
10) Der Alter's states: "If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life By definition aionios means eternal." What the premises are for his conclusion are not properly laid out, so who knows what he's thinking. Does anyone? Maybe he should try laying it out clearly something like this, so people can understand what he's trying to communicate:

"Premise 1. The world is an organized system.
Premise 2. Every organized system must have a creator.
Conclusion. The creator of the world is God."

Der Alter said:
[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and once again (as in John 10:28 above) the translators misled people and left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it! As shown here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh4.pdf
4) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.4:14 yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian. (CLV)
5) In the above translation "life eonian" is paired opposite to "for the eon".
6) If the eon in view is the coming eon, then the coming eon may be finite, for Scripture speaks in many passages of multiple future eons.
7) In light of 5) & 6) above, arguably the "life eonian" referred to in Jn.4:14 is finite.
8) Der Alter's conclusion here is dismissed as it is based on the misleading translation “shall never thirst.”
9) If anything, with the proper translation, "under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon", the opposite conclusion is more warranted.
10) No wonder the Early Church Father, Origen, in commenting on this verse spoke of "after eonian life":

"And after eternal(eonian) life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal(eonian) life."
Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

Der Alter said:
[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

1) Again much of what i've pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.6:27 Do not work for the food which is perishing, but for the food which is remaining for life eonian, which the Son of Mankind will be giving to you, for this One God, the Father, seals. (CLV)
4) You evidently think "etenal" is an opposite for "perish". However Websters' Dictionary lists "age" as a near antonym("opposite") for "perish", but it doesn't list "eternal" at all: Thesaurus results for PERISH
5) Jesus says "Do not work for...food", but Paul says to work, & if you don't work, you don't eat (2 Thess.3:10). So what, really, is Jesus saying there? Is He contradicting Paul or does His statement have a deeper meaning?
6) Der Alter says "In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” " But the verse doesn't even use the words "aionios meat". He made that up out of thin air.

Der Alter said:
[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."

1. In this verse once more the word aiona (eon, age) occurs and once again (as in John 10:28 above) the translators misled people and left it out! They didn't even bother to translate it! As shown here: https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh8.pdf
2) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as, for example:
Jn.8:51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon. (CLV)

Der Alter said:
…..According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent,
● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.

That's exactly how the version of Jn.10:28 i posted above translated it, "by no means be perishing for the eon". But as you can see, it is limited by "for the eon". Which your translation completely failed to translate!

Der Alter said:
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

If it's the "most decisive way of negating something in the future", why didn't God use it to say something like "unbelievers will never (ou me) be saved? You shot your own doctrine in the foot with that one.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Why didn't you list the page number for that BAGD entry?

Der Alter said:
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

Powerful negatives never used of the damnation of the lost.

I rest my case.

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
Yes but, scripture does NOT say that all will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomolgeo occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back).”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”
It never means whole-heartedly etc.
…..

"Vincent's Word Studies
At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)
Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: "the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow." Compare Ephesians 5:20." Philippians 2 Commentary - Vincent's Word Studies

"In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10)."

"κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14...is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

"2:10-11 These final verses of the christologial hymn describe the universal homage and acclamation that will be accorded the one whose name ranks above all others...the adoration is in honour of the exalted Christ...the parallel words of v.11b describe explicitly the act of reverence as paid directly to the Son and 'to the glory of God the Father'. It is clear that Jesus is the one being worshipped."

"...'Every knee shall bow'. The universal scope of the adoration offered to Jesus as Lord is described by the words 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue confess'. (v.11)...The bending of the knee was an expression denoting great reverence and submission in the OT, especially marking the humble approach of the worshipper who felt his need so keenly that he could not stand upright before God. While the usual position in prayer was that of standing (e.g., Je. 18:20; 1 Ki. 18:15; 17:1, etc), in times of special need or extremity the worshipper fell on his knees (so Ez. 9:5, 15). Likewise in the Gospels people stand to pray (Lk.18:11, 13) and Jesus assumes His disciples will stand (cf. Mt.6:5); but when there is an acute sense of need or urgent entreaty, the supplicant falls down before God. So Jesus in Gethsemane bows down in lowly submission and distress (Mt.26:9; Mk.14:35; Lk.22:41). The bowing of the knee here at Phil. 2:10, as Martin puts it, is 'a mark of extreme abasement and submission (as in Eph. iii.14) and denotes that the universal homage marks the subjection of those who kneel to the lordship of Christ'.47"

"...Is. 45:22-25...The Lord...swears solemnly by his own life that 'every knee will bow before me; by me every tongue will swear'...the words of v.23, which are reiterated in Phil. 2:10-11, express the notion of the universal and final homage to Yahweh.

"...By invoking Is.45:23 as its proof-text the author of the hymn and the...community in which the hymn originated live 'in confident expectation that this salvation will soon be universally visible'.55"

(The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC): The Epistle to the Phillipians, Peter T. Obrien, 1991, p.233ff)

"bend the knee in worship, LXX Is.45.23, etc.":

Перевод κάμπτω с греческого на все языки
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κάμπτω

"No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."
Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age

"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

" “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

"Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

(2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

ClementofA · May 5, 2020

Der Alter said:
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated four times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
4. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Then why do i only see 3 there, not 4.

Der Alter said:
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded seven times in scripture.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;. Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Here's another you omitted for some reason:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

Der Alter said:
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

No "footstool" mentioned there or even described.

And no slaying in any verses above that speak of "footstool".

Saint Steven · May 5, 2020

agapelove said:
You quote the Talmud yet you fail to see that even within the Jewish community there was NO UNIFORM WAY of defining hell. Many Talmudic rabbis believed that "Hell/Gehenna/Sheol" could be a place of afterlife purification (Zechariah 13:9 I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried). They also believed that God could rescue people from it (1 Samuel 2:6 The LORD brings death and gives life; He brings down to sheol and raises up.) They also believed the righteous could go there (Psalm 49:14 Like sheep they are destined for sheol.)

Right.
I had the thought some weeks or months ago that we go to the dump (Gehenna) to leave some trash. We don't go there to live. We complete our purging business and leave. Being rid of the trash we brought there. The wagon load we brought is dumped and we leave with an empty wagon. Leaving the trash to be consumed by the fire.

Saint Steven · May 5, 2020

The eternal security of the believer is known only by the overcomers who have fully and forever conquered every vestige of the world, the flesh, and the devil, being conformed into the image of the Son. Of these triumphant ones it is written, "To him that OVERCOMES will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE," and again, "He that OVERCOMES... I will NOT BLOT HIS NAME OUT of the Book of Life" (Rev. 2:7; 3:5). The inference is clear ... until this "overcomer" state is attained, it is possible to have one's name blotted out of the Book of Life! That does not mean that the name cannot be written there again, any more than it could be said that it was impossible for it to be written there in the first instance. But it does indicate that the life possessed by a Christian who is not fully an overcomer is not by God's definition ETERNAL LIFE, for if it were absolutely eternal it could not be lost! Little wonder, then, that our Lord says to the Church at Smyrna, "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a CROWN OF LIFE" (Rev. 2:10). it is my deep conviction that He speaks not of the death that takes this old body to the cemetery, but the death that comes by the INWORKING OF HIS CROSS until all that pertains to the realm of carnality has been completely and forever dealt with. Then, and only then, are we CROWNED WITH LIFE, His life reigning within without interference or possibility of defeat.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Saint Steven · May 5, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
How can someone be more saved than another...?

Those who are saved in the here and now are definitely MORE saved than those whose salvation will be realized (completed) at a later date. Even we will need some fine tuning. Jesus said we (everyone) will be salted with fire.

Neogaia777 said:
Especially since we all get an equal reward, etc...?

That's not correct either. The Parable of the Talents explains this.

FineLinen · May 5, 2020

Saint Steven said:
The eternal security of the believer is known only by the overcomers who have fully and forever conquered every vestige of the world, the flesh, and the devil, being conformed into the image of the Son. Of these triumphant ones it is written, "To him that OVERCOMES will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE," and again, "He that OVERCOMES... I will NOT BLOT HIS NAME OUT of the Book of Life" (Rev. 2:7; 3:5). The inference is clear ... until this "overcomer" state is attained, it is possible to have one's name blotted out of the Book of Life! That does not mean that the name cannot be written there again, any more than it could be said that it was impossible for it to be written there in the first instance. But it does indicate that the life possessed by a Christian who is not fully an overcomer is not by God's definition ETERNAL LIFE, for if it were absolutely eternal it could not be lost! Little wonder, then, that our Lord says to the Church at Smyrna, "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a CROWN OF LIFE" (Rev. 2:10). it is my deep conviction that He speaks not of the death that takes this old body to the cemetery, but the death that comes by the INWORKING OF HIS CROSS until all that pertains to the realm of carnality has been completely and forever dealt with. Then, and only then, are we CROWNED WITH LIFE, His life reigning within without interference or possibility of defeat.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

I am in total agreement with what Preston Eby is writing under the unction. What a choice gem stone He is in Abba's great draw!

There is only one segment that is not "hurt" by the 2nd death. They are known as the overcomer. They cannot be hurt any further. They have walked with Him in the Fire of His great glory. The cross is not an emblem, but an experience of dying daily as the first fruits of those who follow the Lamb in the withersoever.

"The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance."

Saint Steven · May 5, 2020

FineLinen said:
I am in total agreement with what Preston Eby is writing under the unction. What a choice gem stone He is in Abba's great draw!

There is only one segment that is not "hurt" by the 2nd death. They are known as the overcomer. They cannot be hurt any further. They have walked with Him in the Fire of His great glory. The cross is not an emblem, but an experience of dying daily as the first fruits of those who follow the Lamb in the withersoever.

"The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance."

My wife and I were out for a walk yesterday and passed by a house where the owner/occupant had put a table out on the curb with a "FREE take one" sign. I stopped when I noticed that the table was full of wooden crosses obviously created by the craftsman who lived there. I asked my wife if she liked any of them. She picked one up, but said she didn't want to carry it for the rest of the walk. So I offered to carry her cross for her. - lol

She declined my offer and we turned to leave. But I turned back to take a sturdy little oak cross that fit in my pocket. (sticking out at the top) Which I (upon returning home) hung up behind (and above) my spot at the dinner table. That way, when the family looks at me, they see the cross.

Der Alte · May 5, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
How can someone be more saved than another...?
Especially since we all get an equal reward, etc...?
Was more of what I was saying, or pointing at or to, etc...
God Bless!

I have found that it is very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond.
Where is it written that we all get an equal reward? Daniel never said that. Jesus never said that. Paul never said that. John never said that.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 21:3-4
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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You can call me Steve

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You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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