Changing Times.

Josheb

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Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Sadly, that verse applies to you, OHC. It's sad because the log isn't seen. It began when you broke Pr. 26:17. It was made worse when ignoring all the op-rlevant content that was posted and made still worse when irrelevancies were posted. That condition was worsened when the works of men were posted as evidence in an absence of scripture. Go look at your posts and see how far you've fallen evidenced by the lack of scripture. Then the matter was brought to your attention and still not acknowledgment or repentance was posted. Nothing op-relevant or specific to the original post was still not posted. Again a derth of scripture. A second correction was provided with explicit appeals to return to either the op-relevant content or the content of the actual post with which you found dissent.

In other words: posts, not poster.

But now gas lighting is deemed appropriate. I'm the bad guy for pointing out to you your own malfeasance. Well, oHC, I did my part. I asked you once. I asked you twice. Now, in the face of an attempt to make me the one not receiving you you've proven Titus 3:9-11 applicable.

Titus 3:9-11 ESV
"9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."
.
Think about this, too:

Galatians 5:19-20 NAS
"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: ...enmities, strife, ...disputes, dissensions, factions ...and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

This op is about the premises Daniel 7:25 was fulfilled by Constantine and therefore much of Christianity and the Church is corrupt because of the Sunday day of worship. I addressed that content and you ignored what I posted. It was ignored because of your SDAism. It was ignored because of your "faction," or sectarian views. Wouldn't have been so bad had you actually bothered to respond to what was posted. But that didn't happen and as a consequence that entire post was nothing more than fleshly strife, dissension factionalism, and divisiveness. I can speak to the uniqueness of SDAism and I have no grudge against SDAism. I have problems with posters who try to hijack discussions for their own purposes by scapegoating and gaslighting others.

There will be no further reply to you
Good. You shouldn't have posted this time if this was all you had to say. The op is about the premise Sunday worship is Daniel 7. This post to which I now reply has nothing to do with that, even though the request to return to the topic was made. No one made you post this dross but you.

Luke 6:4145
"41“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye. 43“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44“For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."

It is out of the abundance of the heart your fingers typed. It was out of the abundance of your heart that you thought ignoring the actual post's content was a good thing. It was out of the abundance of your heart it was assumed I didn't already know the history posted and needed a lesson while ignoring the op-relevant content. It was out of the abundance of your heart the admonitions were ignored and a refusal to return to the actual contents of the posts was made. It is out of the abundance of your heart you now seek to blame another member of the body of Christ for your own errors.

James 3:8-10
"8But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way."

It was out of the abundance of the heart that Matthew 10:14 was perverted and taken out of its context to avoid your own culpability.

So please don't bother replying to anything I post until you've learn to address actual post content and stay op-relevant. Get your heart right. Start by applying Phil. 2:3 to your every post, even when you're trying to persuade a Sunday-worshiper back to the seventh day Sabbath.

Look forward to seeing after the resurrection
Hypocrisy.

We bless God and curse men made in his image. You've shaken the dust off your feet apparently in neglect of the next verse stating, "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city," and think "Look forward to seeing after the resurrection," is appropriate.

That's a heart issue, Original Happy Camper. Please do not respond further to my posts until that has been addressed AND you can post op-relevantly addressing actual post content.
 
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Der Alte

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Where did Josephus say this?
Evidently "M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100." that is the only source he cited.
 
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expos4ever

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I agree with You Hark.
Who are we, mere humans, and kings to change the Holy law of God YHWH?
If we claim to follow and love Our God we need to follow his Rx for living.
We don't change God's Law, but God has every right to close out the Law of Moses once it has accomplished its purpose. And that is what Paul is indeed telling us at various places in his writings. As for texts in the Old Testament that refer to the Law lasting "forever", if you check the definition of the Hebrew word that has been translated as "forever" you will see that the word can mean "for a long or indefinite period". In any event, what you think Paul means here?:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code
 
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Josheb

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Where did Josephus say this?
The poster was using a second-hand source: "M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.."

I Googled the quote. It took me 23 seconds to find where Josephus wrote what was quoted. It is found in "Against Apion;" Book 2. You'll find the quote in section 40 of that link.
 
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HARK!

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We don't change God's Law, but God has every right to close out the Law of Moses once it has accomplished its purpose.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.
 
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HARK!

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Evidently "M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100." that is the only source he cited.

Here's another oldie but goodie:

"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." , Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2, pp. 73,74, London: 1636
 
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expos4ever

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I will remind reader that this statement:

Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall

...from Jesus may not have been intended to be taken literally. There is both Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence that such "end-of-the-world" language is often used metaphorically to refer to significant events in the here and now.

In short, there is every reason to believe that Jesus is not saying that the Law will remain in force until heaven and earth pass away. More on this shortly.
 
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JSRG

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The poster was using a second-hand source: "M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.."

I Googled the quote. It took me 23 seconds to find where Josephus wrote what was quoted. It is found in "Against Apion;" Book 2. You'll find the quote in section 40 of that link.
Ah, thank you. I actually was able to look up the secondhand source (why cite a secondhand source rather than the direct thing?) but it didn't say where it was. I tried searching Antiquities of the Jews and The Jewish War, but didn't find it. I forgot about Against Apion.

I am not sure how it is supposed to prove anything, though.
 
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Der Alte

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Jesus takes the concept of Gehenna which the oral tradition had worked up into the standard political control tricks (one of the devil's old pagan classics) and redeems it. How? By reasserting a principle of 'corrective punishment'. Take 3 examples:
None of the vss. you quoted say anything like that. Please do not try to interpret any scripture to me. I have been reading English since FDR and Greek since Ronald Reagan first term. Therefore I do not require any UR slanted interpretation
Sounds bad, huh? But each of these passages, read in context, shows that Gehenna fire is employed as an extreme means of correction - something one should preferably avoid, but there to cure sin, to burn it out, and heal the person, the relationship.
None of the vss. say anything about hell or correction.
Irrelevant interpretation omitted.

So Jesus even saves Gehenna from the hands of angry sinners (they're still trying to wrest it back off him to this day). Shalom.
More UR slanted erroneous interpretation.

Here's another oldie but goodie:
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." , Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2, pp. 73,74, London: 1636
No, Zero, None credible, verifiable, historical evidence. I think I can say without fear of contradiction you have never seen "Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2." So this is second hand at best possibly even third or fourth hand.
Once again, credible, verifiable, historical evidence is something written at or near the times in question by a participant or direct eyewitness.
 
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Josheb

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Ah, thank you. I actually was able to look up the secondhand source
Glad to be of assistance
(why cite a secondhand source rather than the direct thing?)
You know the answer to that question: another person's position is being argued; not one for which the research has been done by one's own.
I am not sure how it is supposed to prove anything, though.
Me neither, and I preemptively addressed the matter without yet receiving a cogent response.

The fact is we should expect the gospel to victoriously overtake ALL paganisms and subjugate them to the gospel, not force them into an alternative set of rituals and practices that don't have any inherit soteriological efficacy. This is especially true since the Lord of the Sabbath is the Sabbath and we find our rest in him 24/7. Those adhering to one day per week, whether the first or the seventh day are settling for second best and not living in the fullness of Calvary. The self-righteous anger for non-practitioners is greeted with pity and sadness over teir blindness and if that is mentioned then indignation and ad hominem follow simply because they will not take the invitation to rest all days in all that they do.

Of even further sadness is the fact the first day day of worship began because those of the original tree persecuted and prosecuted those of The Way when they came to gather on the seventh day Sabbath, refusing Gentile converts to that Jewish sect entrance to the temple grounds because of their belief the messianic prophesies had been fulfilled by Jesus at Calvary.

This isn't something a person needs to have a doctorate to understand. So those teachers who attempt to bind the seventh day Sabbath upon the believer do so preying upon the new, unlearned, and unthinking.


I will say this for the op: since the first day of the week worship began in the first century, not the fourth as is implied in the op, the idea Daniel 7 was fulfilled then works well for those with preterist inclination :cool:. Unintended consequences of not thinking through one's own arguments to their logically necessary conclusions ;).





<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>​




Paul's teacher, Gamaliel, said something particularly poignant.

Acts 5:17-39
"But the high priest rose up, along with all his associates (that is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy. They laid hands on the apostles and put them in a public jail. But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the gates of the prison, and taking them out he said, "Go, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life." Upon hearing this, they entered into the temple about daybreak and began to teach. Now when the high priest and his associates came, they called the Council together, even all the Senate of the sons of Israel, and sent orders to the prison house for them to be brought. But the officers who came did not find them in the prison; and they returned and reported back, saying, "We found the prison house locked quite securely and the guards standing at the doors; but when we had opened up, we found no one inside." Now when the captain of the temple guard and the chief priests heard these words, they were greatly perplexed about them as to what would come of this. But someone came and reported to them, "The men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!" Then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence (for they were afraid of the people, that they might be stoned). When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. "For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. "After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.'"


Indeed. Within a few decades Christianity was thriving amidst severe persecution as Jerusalem was being flattened, the artifices of Judaism destroyed, and the Levitical order eradicated.

Shoulda let us in on Saturday :D.
 
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No, Zero, None credible, verifiable, historical evidence. I think I can say without fear of contradiction you have never seen "Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2." So this is second hand at best possibly even third or fourth hand.
Once again, credible, verifiable, historical evidence is something written at or near the times in question by a participant or direct eyewitness.

I think I can say without fear of contradiction you have never seen ANY, not one, of the autograph manuscripts of ANY, not one, of the books of the Bible.


"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
 
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HARK!

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I will remind reader that this statement:

Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall

...from Jesus may not have been intended to be taken literally. There is both Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence that such "end-of-the-world" language is often used metaphorically to refer to significant events in the here and now.

In short, there is every reason to believe that Jesus is not saying that the Law will remain in force until heaven and earth pass away. More on this shortly.


By that reasoning one can make the Bible say whatever hos sinful nature wants it to say.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"You certainly won't die!" the snake told the woman.

I'll just take Yahshua at his word.

"The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1, ch.2, par.30, p.93.
 
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Der Alte

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Here's another oldie but goodie:
"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbah." , Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2, pp. 73,74, London: 1636

So old in fact that it does not appear in the cited publication.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A03146.0001.001/1:11.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext
 
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Der Alte

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I think I can say without fear of contradiction you have never seen ANY, not one, of the autograph manuscripts of ANY, not one, of the books of the Bible.
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
True but unlike quoting a 2d-3d hand quote from some anonymous person, the manuscripts have been translated by many scholars and vetted by experts. But as I have shown "Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2," which just happens to be online, does not say what was claimed.
 
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HARK!

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So old in fact that it does not appear in the cited publication.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A03146.0001.001/1:11.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext

Page 75: seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme,


"The first matter concerned a keeping holy of Saturday. It had come to the earth of the archbishop that people in different places of the kingdom had ventured the keeping holy of Saturday. It is strictly forbidden- it is stated- in the Church-Law, for any one to keep or adopt holy-days. outside of those which the pope,archbishop, or bishops appoint." - speaking of the Church Council held at Bergen, Norway in the year 1435, The History of the Norwegian Church under Catholicism, R. Keyser, Vol II, p 488. Oslo: 1858.
 
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Der Alte

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By that reasoning one can make the Bible say whatever hos sinful nature wants it to say.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
"You certainly won't die!" the snake told the woman.
I'll just take Yahshua at his word.
"The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1, ch.2, par.30, p.93.
Another second hand quote that does not say what is claimed. Here is Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1. What is "quoted" above does not appear on pg. 93
A text-book of church history / by John C.L. Gieseler ; translated from the fourth revised German edition by Samuel Davidson. v.3.
 
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HARK!

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True but unlike quoting a 2d-3d hand quote from some anonymous person, the manuscripts have been translated by many scholars and vetted by experts. But as I have shown "Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2," which just happens to be online, does not say what was claimed.

Page 75: seemes the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme,

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A03146.0001.001/1:11.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext

"It will surely be far safer to observe the seventh day, according to express commandment of God, than on the authority of mere human conjecture to adopt the first."- Jihn Milton, Sab. Lit. pp 46-54.
 
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HARK!

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Another second hand quote that does not say what is claimed. Here is Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1. What is "quoted" above does not appear on pg. 93
A text-book of church history / by John C.L. Gieseler ; translated from the fourth revised German edition by Samuel Davidson. v.3.

That's because the link you posted is for Vol. III. LOL!


"Thus we see Dan. 7 , 25, fulfilled, the little horn changing 'times and laws'. Therefore it appears to me that all who keep the first day for the Sabbath are Pope's Sunday-keepers and God's Sabbath-breakers."- American Elder T.M. Preble, Feb 13 1845.
 
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Der Alte

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Wrong as usual. Here is all the text from pg. 75. The rest is footnotes mostly Latin.
Thus all kinds of ecclesiastical oppression, which, when essayed in earlier times by secular princes, the Popes had resisted to the utmost of their power, were now practiced in a greater degree by the popes themselves. However, the most revolting fact was the slavish flattery which, with the aid of a pitiful casuistry, sought to excuse these manifest abuses, and even the Papal simony.
 
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Wrong as usual. Here is all the text from pg. 75. The rest is footnotes mostly Latin.
Thus all kinds of ecclesiastical oppression, which, when essayed in earlier times by secular princes, the Popes had resisted to the utmost of their power, were now practiced in a greater degree by the popes themselves. However, the most revolting fact was the slavish flattery which, with the aid of a pitiful casuistry, sought to excuse these manifest abuses, and even the Papal simony.

I can see it just fine.

Screenshot_2020-05-04 The history of the Sabbath In two bookes By Pet Heylyn .png


https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A03146.0001.001/1:11.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.
 
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