RAPTURED TO WHERE?

WailingWall said:

Cant seem to find anywhere in scripture that we are goin to heaven after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Anyone?

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Hi WailingWall,

We will be "with the Lord forever" -- He is in heaven now, then will reign on the earth (during the millennium), then will be in the new heaven and earth.

Here are a few verses for your reference:

• But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NASB)

• Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. John 14:1-3 (NASB)

• Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief... For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, 9-11 (NASB)
  
  
  
  
• Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Revelation 21:1-5 (NASB)
  
  

WailingWall said:

Cant seem to find anywhere in scripture that we are goin to heaven after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Anyone?

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There are different points of view about this.

Basic ones:
a) preterism (prophecies or at least main prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century)
b) historicism (prophecies are being fulfilled throughout history)
c) futurism (prophecies will be fulfilled in the future)

Inside futurism, there are internally two more possibilities:
a) there will be two "second comings" of Christ, one hidden (rapture) and one visible (as a Judge), 7 years or 3 years between them
- rapture, in this sense, is supposed to take you to heaven and after 3/7 years you will come back to earth
b) there will be one "second coming" and in this case you are supposed to be just taken up to skies to meet coming Jesus and then you are supposed to descend with him back to earth

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Conclusion: never trust anybody who will tell you his "one true opinion". There are many possibilities of how to see eschatology.

Because of your question, its clear you were taught futurism, probably the point a)

WailingWall said:

Cant seem to find anywhere in scripture that we are goin to heaven after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Anyone?

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A person who is raptured does not go to heaven, they meet The Messiah in the air basically in the clouds. Where The Messiah has established His tent during the tribulation.
Actually the coming of The Messiah is in two parts. The first part at the trumpet blast The Messiah leaves heaven and meets the raptured in the sky, where they will stay till the end of the tribulation. When then The Messiah will leaven His dwelling place in the sky to fight for Israel.

solid_core said:

There are different points of view about this.

Basic ones:
a) preterism (prophecies or at least main prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century)
b) historicism (prophecies are being fulfilled throughout history)
c) futurism (prophecies will be fulfilled in the future)

Inside futurism, there are internally two more possibilities:
a) there will be two "second comings" of Christ, one hidden (rapture) and one visible (as a Judge), 7 years or 3 years between them
- rapture, in this sense, is supposed to take you to heaven and after 3/7 years you will come back to earth
b) there will be one "second coming" and in this case you are supposed to be just taken up to skies to meet coming Jesus and then you are supposed to descend with him back to earth

---

Conclusion: never trust anybody who will tell you his "one true opinion". There are many possibilities of how to see eschatology.

Because of your question, its clear you were taught futurism, probably the point a)

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Idealism is the biggest view within modern Amillennialism.

sovereigngrace said:

Idealism is the biggest view within modern Amillennialism.

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Biggest, smallest... its all fluid and still changing as church is still changing through centuries and even decades...

There is nothing firm in eschatology.

solid_core said:

Biggest, smallest... its all fluid and still changing as church is still changing through centuries and even decades...

There is nothing firm in eschatology.

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Biggest/smallest was not my overriding concern, I just thought it would be helpful if you acknowledged it in the options. That was my reason for mentioning.

sovereigngrace said:

Biggest/smallest was not my overriding concern, I just thought it would be helpful if you acknowledged it in the options. That was my reason for mentioning.

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It seems to me that idealism is not exactly another distinct possibility, its just a non literal approach to Revelation, but can be applied inside preterism, historicism and futurism.

solid_core said:

It seems to me that idealism is not exactly another distinct possibility, its just a non literal approach to Revelation, but can be applied inside preterism, historicism and futurism.

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It is completely different to the other 3 because it refers to symbolic recaps pertaining to the conflict between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of darkness, not necessarily earthly historic events, like the other 3.

sovereigngrace said:

It is completely different to the other 3 because it refers to symbolic recaps pertaining to the conflict between the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light, not historic events, like the other 3.

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Can you tell me more systematically, what is the eschatology of idealism, then? I did not find anything relevant.

Regarding rapture, second coming, judgement, the man of sin...

solid_core said:

Can you tell me more systematically, what is the eschatology of idealism, then? I did not find anything relevant.

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Idealists believe that Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Parallel’s are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light.

Revelation is written for the purpose of revealing the character and standing of Christ, His power and glory, following His victorious earthly ministry. It reveals who Christ is, His current standing, what His plan is, and it also ministers unto those who are going through tribulation.

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith.

John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Those who have eyes to see will get the thrust of the book! I didn’t say that you would get every minute detail. But you should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

CYCLE 1

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)

CYCLE 2

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

CYCLE 3

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)

CYCLE 4 (Ch 12-14)

The conflict between kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

CYCLE 5

Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)

CYCLE 6

Babylon (Ch 17-19)

CYCLE 7

The spiritual binding of Satan from the cross. The advance of the Gospel to the nations. The victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22:1-5).

sovereigngrace said:

Idealists believe that Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Parallel’s are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light.

Revelation is written for the purpose of revealing the character and standing of Christ, His power and glory, following His victorious earthly ministry. It reveals who Christ is, His current standing, what His plan is, and it also ministers unto those who are going through tribulation.

Revelation is designed to enlighten God’s people, stir their hearts and increase their faith.

John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Those who have eyes to see will get the thrust of the book! I didn’t say that you would get every minute detail. But you should get the overall message of the apocalypse.

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

CYCLE 1

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3)

CYCLE 2

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

CYCLE 3

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8-11)

CYCLE 4 (Ch 12-14)

The conflict between kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

CYCLE 5

Seven Vials (Ch 15-16)

CYCLE 6

Babylon (Ch 17-19)

CYCLE 7

The spiritual binding of Satan from the cross. The advance of the Gospel to the nations. The victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22:1-5).

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And aside the book of Revelation? What is the eschatology of idealism?

solid_core said:

And aside the book of Revelation? What is the eschatology of idealism?

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Typically Amil. They believe in a climactic coming of Christ. They believe there is only one people of God.

WailingWall said:

Cant seem to find anywhere in scripture that we are goin to heaven after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Anyone?

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There is no scripture that says people alive or dead, go to live in heaven. Only the souls of the martyrs are kept there; under the Altar. Revelation 6:9-11

The prophecy of Paul's in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is plainly for after the Millennium, when the final Judgment of everyone takes place and the Book of Life is opened.
Proved by how it is only then; that Death will be no more. 1 Cor 15:54-55, Revelation 21:4

keras said:

There is no scripture that says people alive or dead, go to live in heaven. Only the souls of the martyrs are kept there; under the Altar. Revelation 6:9-11

The prophecy of Paul's in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is plainly for after the Millennium, when the final Judgment of everyone takes place and the Book of Life is opened.
Proved by how it is only then; that Death will be no more. 1 Cor 15:54-55, Revelation 21:4

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The only way you can keep saying that is by ignoring clear and repeated New Testament Scripture.

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

The Bible says they are alive.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the redeemed can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

Again, this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

sovereigngrace said:

evelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

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Absolute fanciful assumption and guesswork.
NOWHERE does Rev 7 mention heaven. In fact that chapter sets the earthly scene in the first 3 verses.
It is never said to change location. Gods Throne can be seen from the earth, if He wills it. Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56
Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy of the time after the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 21:4, they both say then; God will wipe away every tear.

keras said:

Absolute fanciful assumption and guesswork.
NOWHERE does Rev 7 mention heaven. In fact that chapter sets the earthly scene in the first 3 verses.
It is never said to change location. Gods Throne can be seen from the earth, if He wills it. Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56
Revelation 7:15-17 is a prophecy of the time after the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 21:4, they both say then; God will wipe away every tear.

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You err.

Revelation 7 refers to the throne of God no less than seven times, and its Occupant, and those and the activities surrounding it.

Revelation 4:2 reveals the location of that throne:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

As you've said, the throne never changes location.

Revelation 7 is Revelation heaven.

WailingWall said:

Cant seem to find anywhere in scripture that we are goin to heaven after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Anyone?

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Greetings WailingWall well not entirely.

jgr said:

You err.

Revelation 7 refers to the throne of God no less than seven times, and its Occupant, and those and the activities surrounding it.

Revelation 4:2 reveals the location of that throne:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

As you've said, the throne never changes location.

Revelation 7 is Revelation heaven.

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That you are quite wrong is proved by how God's Throne can and has been seen by people standing on the earth. Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56.
If as you think the 144,000 and the vast multitude of Christians are all in heaven, it is on you to provide scriptures that say how and when they got there.

I have plenty that say God's holy people are in His holy Land.