USING HIGH SCHOOL GEOMETRY TO CRITIQUE IMMERSION ONLY BAPTISM

Albion

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Neither does it have anything to do with salvation.

All water baptism is to get one wet.
So baptism is of no value whatsoever?

It's a cute line (at least for the first fifty times of hearing it), but neither the sacramental churches nor the fundamentalists at the opposite end of the spectrum have been saying it has no importance whatsoever. Not to the best of my knowledge, anyway.
 
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Major1

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Noah and his family were "baptized" in the flood. They were not covered by the waters. The Israelites were "baptized" when they passed through the Red Sea on DRY land. They were not covered by the water.

Personally I do not think what you posted is correct. Seems to me that Noah and his family were in the Ark which is a picture of Christ's salvation and were not in the water at all. The Ark was in the water.....But Noah was IN THE ARK.

1 Corth. 10:1 simply means that the people "IDENTIFIED" . Moses did not have a baptismal service at the Red Sea crossing.

The word in this Scripture....."Were all baptized unto Moses" literally means that they Identified with him.

Please take the time to look up the word "Baptizo" in a Greek Lexicon and you will see it has about 20 meanings. The translators simply did not translate that word and merely took it and "transliterated" it. They simply gave the word an English spelling.

When they crossed the Red Sea they did not get wet at all so water baptism can not be in view......unless you insist on making that the case.

The ones who got baptized (made wet) were the Egyptians.

Remember, it was Moses who had the faith, not the people.
It was Moses who went down and smote the Red Sea.
It was Moses who led the people across on DRY land.

All the people did was to "IDENTIFY----BATIZO" with Moses.
 
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Major1

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So baptism is of no value whatsoever?

It's a cute line (at least for the first fifty times of hearing it), but neither the sacramental churches nor the fundamentalists at the opposite end of the spectrum have been saying it has no importance whatsoever. Not to the best of my knowledge, anyway.

I guess that would depend on how one defines "Value".

As for salvation....NO.

I would say that the act could serve as a means of accountability to ones congregation.

It could also be seen as a vow made to God since it is a open act of an inward choice.

Again....."value" is a carefully chosen word me thinks.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Having spoken with you in the past on this, I am able to say to you that time has not changed anything.

Acts 2:38...…….
“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

Here is the problem with believing that Scriptures teaches salvation by water baptism.

As with any single verse or passage, it must be discerned what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand.

In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.
Does Acts 2:38 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? | GotQuestions.org

When you say "not by works of any kind" do you mean only human works, or do you include God's works?

If you mean human works, I agree.

So my question: Do the works of God save us? Put more simply, are we saved by what God does?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Major1

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When you say "not by works of any kind" do you mean only human works, or do you include God's works?

If you mean human works, I agree.

So my question: Do the works of God save us? Put more simply, are we saved by what God does?

-CryptoLutheran

Yes. We are saved by what God did! He died to pay the penalty of our sin.....death.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes. We are saved by what God did! He died to pay the penalty of our sin.....death.

So then we can agree that the works of God save us.

So since in baptism we aren't the ones doing any work, but rather God is the one working--by joining us to His Son, to Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), buried with Christ (Colossians 2:12), clothing us with Christ (Galatians 3:27), regenerating us (John 3:5, Titus 3:5), and everything else Scripture says. Then your entire objection to the salvific dimension of baptism is moot.

Baptism isn't our work. It's God's work. God baptizes us, we don't baptize ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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You are still missing the point. The OP asserts that there is some sort of mathematical aspect to baptism and its relation to salvation. This is just nonsense. As for the actual administration of the sacrament, there is nothing the water does but demonstrates in a symbolic way what is happening on the inside. There are no special powers imparted to the water that is used, it is just water.

Is it ordinary water? Of course. But not just ordinary water, but ordinary water comprehended in and connected with God's word.

Christ's flesh was ordinary flesh, but it can hardly be called just ordinary flesh; because His flesh is the flesh that was pierced for the sins of the world. His blood was ordinary blood, but not just ordinary blood, but the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

What is ordinary is made extraordinary by the power of God's word.

With dirt and spit the Son of God made the blind to see. With the command of His voice He caused the wind and waves to quiet.

Do not call what God has made glorious by His word "just" ordinary.

The Word became flesh, and by His stripes we are healed.
By the preaching of the Gospel hopeless sinners are given faith.
By the waters of Holy Baptism our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ.
By the bread and wine of the Eucharist we receive the flesh and blood of Almighty God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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athenken

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Is it ordinary water? Of course. But not just ordinary water, but ordinary water comprehended in and connected with God's word.

Christ's flesh was ordinary flesh, but it can hardly be called just ordinary flesh; because His flesh is the flesh that was pierced for the sins of the world. His blood was ordinary blood, but not just ordinary blood, but the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

What is ordinary is made extraordinary by the power of God's word.

With dirt and spit the Son of God made the blind to see. With the command of His voice He caused the wind and waves to quiet.

Do not call what God has made glorious by His word "just" ordinary.

The Word became flesh, and by His stripes we are healed.
By the preaching of the Gospel hopeless sinners are given faith.
By the waters of Holy Baptism our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ.
By the bread and wine of the Eucharist we receive the flesh and blood of Almighty God.

-CryptoLutheran
It seems you are getting hung up on the catholic view of baptism, which is false. Even Luther knew this.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It seems you are getting hung up on the catholic view of baptism, which is false. Even Luther knew this.

"Comprehend the difference, then, that Baptism is quite another thing than all other water; not on account of the natural quality but because something more noble is here added; for God Himself stakes His honor, His power and might on it. Therefore it is not only natural water, but a divine, heavenly, holy, and blessed water, and in whatever other terms we can praise it,-all on account of the Word, which is a heavenly, holy Word, that no one can sufficiently extol, for it has, and is able to do, all that God is and can do [since it has all the virtue and power of God comprised in it]. Hence also it derives its essence as a Sacrament, as St. Augustine also taught: Accedat verbum ad elementum et fit sacramentum. That is, when the Word is joined to the element or natural substance, it becomes a Sacrament, that is, a holy and divine matter and sign." - Martin Luther's Large Catechism, Section IV, 17-18

"Thus, and much more even, you must honor Baptism and esteem it glorious on account of the Word, since He Himself has honored it both by words and deeds; moreover, confirmed it with miracles from heaven. For do you think it was a jest that, when Christ was baptized, the heavens were opened and the Holy Ghost descended visibly, and everything was divine glory and majesty?" ibid. 21

"In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives, and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever.

Here you see again how highly and precious we should esteem Baptism, because in it we obtain such an unspeakable treasure, which also indicates sufficiently that it cannot be ordinary mere water. For mere water could not do such a thing, but the Word does it, and (as said above) the fact that the name of God is comprehended therein. But where the name of God is, there must be also life and salvation, that it may indeed be called a divine, blessed, fruitful, and gracious water; for by the Word such power is imparted to Baptism that it is a laver of regeneration, as St. Paul also calls it, Titus 3:5.
" - ibid. 23-27

-CryptoLutheran
 
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athenken

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"Comprehend the difference, then, that Baptism is quite another thing than all other water; not on account of the natural quality but because something more noble is here added; for God Himself stakes His honor, His power and might on it. Therefore it is not only natural water, but a divine, heavenly, holy, and blessed water, and in whatever other terms we can praise it,-all on account of the Word, which is a heavenly, holy Word, that no one can sufficiently extol, for it has, and is able to do, all that God is and can do [since it has all the virtue and power of God comprised in it]. Hence also it derives its essence as a Sacrament, as St. Augustine also taught: Accedat verbum ad elementum et fit sacramentum. That is, when the Word is joined to the element or natural substance, it becomes a Sacrament, that is, a holy and divine matter and sign." - Martin Luther's Large Catechism, Section IV, 17-18

"Thus, and much more even, you must honor Baptism and esteem it glorious on account of the Word, since He Himself has honored it both by words and deeds; moreover, confirmed it with miracles from heaven. For do you think it was a jest that, when Christ was baptized, the heavens were opened and the Holy Ghost descended visibly, and everything was divine glory and majesty?" ibid. 21

"In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives, and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever.

Here you see again how highly and precious we should esteem Baptism, because in it we obtain such an unspeakable treasure, which also indicates sufficiently that it cannot be ordinary mere water. For mere water could not do such a thing, but the Word does it, and (as said above) the fact that the name of God is comprehended therein. But where the name of God is, there must be also life and salvation, that it may indeed be called a divine, blessed, fruitful, and gracious water; for by the Word such power is imparted to Baptism that it is a laver of regeneration, as St. Paul also calls it, Titus 3:5.
" - ibid. 23-27

-CryptoLutheran
Case in point. There is no biblical support for "Holy Water."
 
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ViaCrucis

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Case in point. There is no biblical support for "Holy Water."

Oh you mean there's no magical water that can burn vampires? Well that's unfortunate if I ever find myself surrounded by the undead, but also completely irrelevant to the discussion.

The water of Baptism is holy, because God's word makes it so.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Radagast

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The top verses credobaptists use to justify the belief in immersion baptism it would be Romans 6:4 or Col. 2:12, Acts 8:38-39 and the “much water” passage from John 3.

Paedobaptists recognise immersion as a valid form of baptism. It is (sometimes) a practical option for adults and has the advantage of displaying in visual form what Romans 6:4 talks about.

But baptism isn't only about being "buried with Christ," it's also about being washed clean from our sins.

Therefore [Christ] has commanded all those, who are his, to be baptized with pure water, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost": thereby signifying to us, that as water washeth away the filth of the body, when poured upon it, and is seen on the body of the baptized, when sprinkled upon him; so doth the blood of Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost, internally sprinkle the soul, cleanse it from its sins, and regenerate us from children of wrath, unto children of God. Not that this is effected by the external water, but by the sprinkling of the precious blood of the Son of God; who is our Red Sea, through which we must pass, to escape the tyranny of Pharaoh, that is, the devil, and to enter into the spiritual land of Canaan. (Belgic Confession, 34)
 
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Major1

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So then we can agree that the works of God save us.

So since in baptism we aren't the ones doing any work, but rather God is the one working--by joining us to His Son, to Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), buried with Christ (Colossians 2:12), clothing us with Christ (Galatians 3:27), regenerating us (John 3:5, Titus 3:5), and everything else Scripture says. Then your entire objection to the salvific dimension of baptism is moot.

Baptism isn't our work. It's God's work. God baptizes us, we don't baptize ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

IF you are saying that "THE WORK Christ did on the cross saves us", then YES.

IMO, you are trying to incorporate denomination teachings into Bible doctrine to satisfy what YOU believe is truth. I say that with all due respect to you as I do not want to be argumenitive with you or confrontational.

You do not have to be baptized by water to be saved. You must be baptized by the Holy Spirit. Baptism with water is symbolic of a persons repentance in order for forgiveness. Salvation comes by believing with your heart, confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord which is clearly seen in Romans 10:17.

However....To say that "So since in baptism we aren't the ones doing any work" is to SPIN what you want to believe. That IMO is an incorrect comment.

God does not baptize anyone in water to save them. An ordained man does that act on a saved man.
That is 100% a work of man and has nothing to do with being saved.
IT IS A CHOICE!


Being Batized with the Holy Spirit is the act done by God my friend.

Acts 2:21...……..
“`And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Allow me to ask you three examples which you will need to explain to make your opinion acceptable.

1. A man accepts Christ in a foxhole before a battle. There is NO water available. There is NO opportunity to immerse him in water if there was in fact any available. The next day that very man is killed in battle. IS HE A SAVED MAN WHO GOES TO HEAVEN???

2. You talk with a person in the hospital. They are very sick and close to death. You give him the gospel and through tears of regret, he accepts Christ and without being able to be baptized because of his health, he dies right there in front of you. Is that a saved person who in fact goes to heaven???

Now if your explaination is that there is no way those people can prove that they meant what they said.....you would then be denying death bed confessions and the Last Rites of the Catholic church would mean absolutely nothing.

3. Then there is always the example of the thief on the cross. He accepted Christ on his cross and Jesus said to him......"TODAY you will be with me in Paradise".

Now please post the Scriptures that tell us the thief was taken down from his cross and baptized in water and then placed back upon his cross to die.

Now then........if you can not satisfactorily explain those 3 examples then it is actually your entire teaching that is moot.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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MAJOR1 SAID :1. A man accepts Christ in a foxhole before a battle. There is NO water available. There is NO opportunity to immerse him in water if there was in fact any available. The next day that very man is killed in battle. IS HE A SAVED MAN WHO GOES TO HEAVEN???
------------------------

Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever God has instituted and commanded it is to be done. Obedience to Jesus’ commands is always obligatory.

But while God binds us to observe the Sacrament, God does not bind Himself to baptism as the only means of grace unto salvation. BAPTISM IS NOT ESSENTIAL UNTO SALVATION MEANING IT IA ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE. WHAT IS ESSENTIAL AND ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE FOR SALVATION IS THAT CHRIST SHOULD DIE FOR US. THIS GOD HAS BOUND HIMSELF TO. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission and can be no remission of sins. Salvation is impossible without Christ’s sacrifice.

God has not bound himself to baptism in the same way he binds himself to the Atonement. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith,

God binds us to be baptized but it is not absolute where baptism is impossible to be administered. Wherever baptism is offered, the Christian is baptized. This is NT teaching.

The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

True faith always results in baptism.

Major1 Fallacy: He builds this theological constructs on “exceptions” We don't build theology on exceptions but the Word of God.

The soldier is saved without baptism, as faith in Christ alone justifies. The promise of God here is wherever the Word of God is proclaimed people are converted. Baptism was offered, but couldn’t be administered. It is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith.

However, outright rejection of baptism in tantamount to rejection of God himself, thus no true faith can really be present. Not being baptized is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief.

True faith always results in baptism. The Christian is never to think that baptism is optional or unnecessary.

An unbaptized believer is antithetical to the NT. The New Testament never considers the situation. It’s not in the bible.

We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Personally I do not think what you posted is correct. Seems to me that Noah and his family were in the Ark which is a picture of Christ's salvation and were not in the water at all. The Ark was in the water.....But Noah was IN THE ARK.

1 Corth. 10:1 simply means that the people "IDENTIFIED" . Moses did not have a baptismal service at the Red Sea crossing.

The word in this Scripture....."Were all baptized unto Moses" literally means that they Identified with him.

Please take the time to look up the word "Baptizo" in a Greek Lexicon and you will see it has about 20 meanings. The translators simply did not translate that word and merely took it and "transliterated" it. They simply gave the word an English spelling.

When they crossed the Red Sea they did not get wet at all so water baptism can not be in view......unless you insist on making that the case.

The ones who got baptized (made wet) were the Egyptians.

Remember, it was Moses who had the faith, not the people.
It was Moses who went down and smote the Red Sea.
It was Moses who led the people across on DRY land.

All the people did was to "IDENTIFY----BATIZO" with Moses.
Peter said that Noah and his family were saved "through water." Peter called this a "baptism." Yet they were not immersed. When the Israelites passed through the Red Sea they were sprinkled by the cloud while walking on dry land (Psalm 77). You have no basis whatsoever to exclude water as the means by which they were "identified" into Moses.
 
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Major1

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MAJOR1 SAID :1. A man accepts Christ in a foxhole before a battle. There is NO water available. There is NO opportunity to immerse him in water if there was in fact any available. The next day that very man is killed in battle. IS HE A SAVED MAN WHO GOES TO HEAVEN???
------------------------

Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever God has instituted and commanded it is to be done. Obedience to Jesus’ commands is always obligatory.

But while God binds us to observe the Sacrament, God does not bind Himself to baptism as the only means of grace unto salvation. BAPTISM IS NOT ESSENTIAL UNTO SALVATION MEANING IT IA ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE. WHAT IS ESSENTIAL AND ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE FOR SALVATION IS THAT CHRIST SHOULD DIE FOR US. THIS GOD HAS BOUND HIMSELF TO. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission and can be no remission of sins. Salvation is impossible without Christ’s sacrifice.

God has not bound himself to baptism in the same way he binds himself to the Atonement. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith,

God binds us to be baptized but it is not absolute where baptism is impossible to be administered. Wherever baptism is offered, the Christian is baptized. This is NT teaching.

The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

True faith always results in baptism.

Major1 Fallacy: He builds this theological constructs on “exceptions” We don't build theology on exceptions but the Word of God.

The soldier is saved without baptism, as faith in Christ alone justifies. The promise of God here is wherever the Word of God is proclaimed people are converted. Baptism was offered, but couldn’t be administered. It is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith.

However, outright rejection of baptism in tantamount to rejection of God himself, thus no true faith can really be present. Not being baptized is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief.

True faith always results in baptism. The Christian is never to think that baptism is optional or unnecessary.

An unbaptized believer is antithetical to the NT. The New Testament never considers the situation. It’s not in the bible.

We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.

Your response in no way answers the 3 example I gave you. YOU FAILED completely.

Your response tells me that you were never in combat so #1 you have absolutely no authority to make a opinion.

It also suggests to me that you have not done a lot of soul winning and witnessing.

Then your response in the second place completely removes the Bible doctrine of the Death Bed confession and you have completely destroyed the "Last Rites" of the Roman Catholic Church.

I suggest that you take that idea up with any local RCC priest.

What is most disturbing is your comment of...…...
"Not being baptized is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief."

That is a really, really thoughtless comment. Water Baptism as an agent of salvation has NOTHING to do with the Bible and everything to do with Denominational dogma.

IMO....and according to the Bible, everyone should be baptized AFTER they accept Christ as their Saviour, but Nowhere does the Bible add baptism for salvation. The gospel is what saves a person not in part, not half way or two thirds but completely. The gospel contains nothing about baptism, good works, service, church membership, tithing, sacraments or rituals, diet or clothing. No amount of any of these will help save you. In fact they will hinder you if you are doing them to be saved.




 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Your response in no way answers the 3 example I gave you. YOU FAILED completely.

And yet another thief the cross example of the non-necessity of baptism. Let’s dispel this myth.

Jesus institutes Christian baptism after his death but before his ascension. The first administration of Christian baptism in on Pentecost. How is it possible for the thief to be baptized when the first Christian baptisms would occur 53 days later? Saying “after all the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized” is like saying “after all, Jeremiah, Isaiah, or King David wasn’t baptized either.” Just nonsensical. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism.


At least two people were converted when Jesus was on the cross. The thief and the Roman Centurion. Both were converted in the exact same way----the preaching of Jesus, as the Scriptures say, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." But the preaching of Jesus comes from two different sources: (1) Jesus own words on the cross...He did recite a psalm...(2) from the Scribes and the Sadducees....from their accusations against Jesus.


The Roman Centurion said after Christ’s death…”Surely, he was the Son of God.” How does the Roman Centurion who was a gentile come to the conclusion he is the Son of God? Jesus never preached he was the Son of God on the cross. The Roman Centurion hears Jesus being called the Son of God from the Scribes and the Sadducees.


After six hours on the cross, the Roman Centurion hears accusation after accusation by the Scribes and Sadducees. These accusations were statements of fact Jesus himself preached prior to being place on the cross. The Roman Centurion believes he is the Son of God because Matthew records twice his accusers said He was the Son of God. Faith was worked into the Roman Centurion in the oddest of all ways...statements by Christ's accusers. What the Centurion believes are Jesus’ previous preached statements about Himself articulated by the Scribes and the Sadducees. Faith does come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

In this way, the thief is saved by faith; he joins the ranks of saved individuals such as Jeremiah, Samuel, Moses, David, and the like. None of these individuals had been baptized and never received the command to be baptized.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Ophs, Sorry Major1 for posting within your quotation. Honest mistake. I WILL REPOST TO MY ACCOUNT.

And yet another thief the cross example of the non-necessity of baptism. Let’s dispel this myth.

Jesus institutes Christian baptism after his death but before his ascension. The first administration of Christian baptism in on Pentecost. How is it possible for the thief to be baptized when the first Christian baptisms would occur 53 days later? Saying “after all the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized” is like saying “after all, Jeremiah, Isaiah, or King David wasn’t baptized either.” Just nonsensical. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism.


At least two people were converted when Jesus was on the cross. The thief and the Roman Centurion. Both were converted in the exact same way----the preaching of Jesus, as the Scriptures say, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." But the preaching of Jesus comes from two different sources: (1) Jesus own words on the cross...He did recite a psalm...(2) from the Scribes and the Sadducees....from their accusations against Jesus.


The Roman Centurion said after Christ’s death…”Surely, he was the Son of God.” How does the Roman Centurion who was a gentile come to the conclusion he is the Son of God? Jesus never preached he was the Son of God on the cross. The Roman Centurion hears Jesus being called the Son of God from the Scribes and the Sadducees.


After six hours on the cross, the Roman Centurion hears accusation after accusation by the Scribes and Sadducees. These accusations were statements of fact Jesus himself preached prior to being place on the cross. The Roman Centurion believes he is the Son of God because Matthew records twice his accusers said He was the Son of God. Faith was worked into the Roman Centurion in the oddest of all ways...statements by Christ's accusers. What the Centurion believes are Jesus’ previous preached statements about Himself articulated by the Scribes and the Sadducees. Faith does come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

In this way, the thief is saved by faith; he joins the ranks of saved individuals such as Jeremiah, Samuel, Moses, David, and the like. None of these individuals had been baptized and never received the command to be baptized.
 
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ViaCrucis

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IF you are saying that "THE WORK Christ did on the cross saves us", then YES.

IMO, you are trying to incorporate denomination teachings into Bible doctrine to satisfy what YOU believe is truth. I say that with all due respect to you as I do not want to be argumenitive with you or confrontational.

You do not have to be baptized by water to be saved. You must be baptized by the Holy Spirit. Baptism with water is symbolic of a persons repentance in order for forgiveness. Salvation comes by believing with your heart, confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord which is clearly seen in Romans 10:17.

However....To say that "So since in baptism we aren't the ones doing any work" is to SPIN what you want to believe. That IMO is an incorrect comment.

God does not baptize anyone in water to save them. An ordained man does that act on a saved man.
That is 100% a work of man and has nothing to do with being saved.
IT IS A CHOICE!

So you would also argue that preaching the Gospel, because the preaching is done by a human being, is not effectual? Is that correct?

Being Batized with the Holy Spirit is the act done by God my friend.

And it's something that happened two thousand years ago. If you want to say that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is something that happens to individuals, you'll need to demonstrate that with Scripture.

Acts 2:21...……..
“`And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

"How then will they call on Him whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all received the Gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:14-17

Allow me to ask you three examples which you will need to explain to make your opinion acceptable.

1. A man accepts Christ in a foxhole before a battle. There is NO water available. There is NO opportunity to immerse him in water if there was in fact any available. The next day that very man is killed in battle. IS HE A SAVED MAN WHO GOES TO HEAVEN???

"Accepting Christ" is a human work, and is impossible for fallen man to do. If you mean if a man hears the Gospel, and he believes, and if he dies the next day before he can receive Baptism if he's saved. The answer is yes. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word.

2. You talk with a person in the hospital. They are very sick and close to death. You give him the gospel and through tears of regret, he accepts Christ and without being able to be baptized because of his health, he dies right there in front of you. Is that a saved person who in fact goes to heaven???

If someone is in the hospital, sick and close to death, and hears the Gospel and believes, unable to receive Baptism, they are saved. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word.

Now if your explaination is that there is no way those people can prove that they meant what they said.....you would then be denying death bed confessions and the Last Rites of the Catholic church would mean absolutely nothing.

3. Then there is always the example of the thief on the cross. He accepted Christ on his cross and Jesus said to him......"TODAY you will be with me in Paradise".

The Son of God said to him, "You will be with Me in Paradise." The word of Christ is salvation. The thief on the cross was saved by the word of Christ. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Now please post the Scriptures that tell us the thief was taken down from his cross and baptized in water and then placed back upon his cross to die.

Now then........if you can not satisfactorily explain those 3 examples then it is actually your entire teaching that is moot.

That you do not understand, and refuse to understand, what the Church has always taught about Baptism, and what Scripture says, then you will continually make bad arguments against historic biblical, Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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