THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

LoveGodsWord · May 2, 2020

ClementofA said:
The question is, what does it mean to be "destroy(ed") v.17 & are destroyed ones described earlier in the context (v.15) by "he shall suffer loss". The same verse saying "but he himself shall be saved".

Annihilationists assume destroy means annihilated forever, never to live again. But v.17 doesn't say that. So to inject it in there is merely an interpretation, an opinion, not a thus sayeth the Lord.

The English word "destroy" has various meanings. It need not mean endless annihilation. For example, a car that is destroyed can be repaired. A King whose soul is destroyed so much that he eats grass like an animal for 7 years can be restored (see Daniel, OT, Bible). An alcoholic who destroys his health, relationships & mind(soul) with booze can be restored to health, restored in his relationships with others & restored to a sound mind(soul).

So, again,when annihilationists simply quote a verse & make the unsupported, unproven & unwarranted - assumption - about it & the word "destroyed", that it supports their view, they do not have a "proof text" for their viewpoint, but merely a human opinion. Not a thus sayeth the Lord.

And why would Love Omnipotent want to resort to endless annihilation? It makes no sense.

Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor 3:15 & universalism:
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

No need to guess here and post walls of second hand information from the teachings of men.
DESTRUCTION means DESTRUCTION. But first let's look at the context again and define the topics of discussion.

1 CORINTHIANS 3:4-19
[4], For while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?
[5], Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
[6], I HAVE PLANTED, APOLLOS WATERED; BUT GOD GAVE THE INCREASE.
[7], SO THEN NEITHER IS HE THAT PLANTS ANY THING, NEITHER HE THAT WATERS; BUT GOD THAT GIVES THE INCREASE.
[8], NOW HE THAT PLANTS AND HE THAT WATERS ARE ONE: AND EVERY MAN SHALL RECEIVE HIS OWN REWARD ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR.
[9], FOR WE ARE LABORERS TOGETHER WITH GOD: YOU ARE GOD'S HUSBANDRY, YOU ARE GOD'S BUILDING.
[10], ACCORDING TO THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME, AS A WISE MASTER BUILDER, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION, AND ANOTHER BUILDS THEREON. BUT LET EVERY MAN TAKE HEED HOW HE BUILDS THEREUPON.
[11], FOR OTHER FOUNDATION CAN NO MAN LAY THAN THAT IS LAID, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.
[12], NOW IF ANY MAN BUILD ON THIS FOUNDATION GOLD, SILVER, PRECIOUS STONES, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE;
[13], EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST: FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT SHALL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; AND THE FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN'S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS.
[14], IF ANY MAN'S WORK ABIDE WHICH HE HAS BUILT THEREUPON, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD.
[15], IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

Ok lets summarise the context and the topic of conversation from 1 CORINTHIANS 3:4-15

1. Paul is showing that those who follow people are carnal and state that the work of spreading the Gospel of Gods’ kingdom takes many people working together with God’s Spirit who gives the increase (saved souls) v4-7

2. Every man receives his own reward for his own labours in speading the Gospel and building up God’s kingdom v8-9

3. PAUL as a wise master builder has laid the foundation of the Gospel which is CHRIST and we should all be careful how we build upon the foundation of Christ representing what we teach others in relation to the Gospel as no other foundation can be laid but the gospel of JESUS Christ and his death for our sins. v10-11

4. Then Paul states v12-14 that if any man build on the foundation of Christ in spreading the gospel (v4-11) some will do better then others building on Christ as the true foundation as Gold, Silver, Precious stones, Wood Hay, Stubble. Not literally but as a metaphor of the work of spreading the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ and building on the knowledge of Christ and him crucidied. As can be shown in the CONTEXT the subject matter is that of the work of spreading the Gospel commission that JESUS has given to all Christians and building the church to a closer walk with God.

5. Now we have provided CONTEXT let’s look at the scripture…

[15], IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

So considering the context already shown the work here that is being spoken of is the work of “BELIEVERS” spreading the gospel who are building on the foundation of Christ. Everyones work of spreading the gospel commission will be tested with fire some will bear fruit and others will suffer loss (were not successful in bringing people to Christ and building up the Church). Though these people may not have had much success in building up the Church because they built on the FOUNDATION OF CHRIST v11 they will be saved!

As proven above there is no one single scripture in 1 CORINTHIANS 3 that is even talking and has application to the lost or the wicked. The context is to speading the gospel and the work of spreading the gospel and it is written to “BELIEVERS” not “UNBELIEVERS” so your interpretation here is nonsense.

Now notice v16-17

[16], KNOW YOU NOT THAT YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, AND THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU?[17], IF ANY MAN DEFILE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, HIM SHALL GOD DESTROY; FOR THE TEMPLE OF GOD IS HOLY, WHICH TEMPLE YOU ARE.

Notice now we are looking at separate subject matter. It is no more about the work of God and laying the foundation of Christ and every mans work of spreading the Gospel. Paul is now talking about “BELIEVERS” as being the “TEMPLE” or “DWELLING PLACE OF GOD” and that God lives in his people and if we “DEFILE” ourselves (just like unbelievers defile themselves) God will “DESTROY” as we are God’s DWELLING PLACE are meant to be “HOLY” (free from practicing sin). To defile in context to HOLY means to SIN (knowingly break God’s commandments)

[18], LET NO MAN DECEIVE HIMSELF. IF ANY MAN AMONG YOU SEEMS TO BE WISE IN THIS WORLD, LET HIM BECOME A FOOL, THAT HE MAY BE WISE.

[19], For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness.

So BOOM... the context shown here proves your interpretation of the scriptures in error.

……………

Now let’s simply post the meaning of “DESTRUCTION” from the Greek to finish this up before providing a closing conclusion…

φθερεῖ] placed immediately after φθείρει at the head of the apodosis, to express with emphasis the adequacy of the recompense. See Kühner, II. p. 626. What φθερεῖ denotes is the temporal destruction, the punishment of death which God will bring upon the destroyer of His temple, as in the LXX. φθείρω is often used of God as inflicting such destruction. Comp Genesis 6:13; Micah 2:10; 1 Kings 2:27, al[553]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5351: φθείρω

φθείρω; future φθερῶ; 1 aorist ἐφθειρα; passive, present φθείρομαι; 2 aorist ἐφθάρην; 2 future φθαρήσομαι; (akin to German verderben); the Sept. for שִׁחֵת; (from Homer down); to corrupt, to destroy: properly, τόν ναόν τοῦ Θεοῦ (in the opinion of the Jews the temple was corrupted, or 'destroyed', when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties; cf. Deyling, Observations, sacrae, vol. ii, p. 505ff), dropping the figure, to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide, 1 Corinthians 3:17a; τινα, to punish with death, 1 Corinthians 3:17{b}; equivalent to bring to want or beggary (cf. our ruin (A. V. corrupt)), 2 Corinthians 7:2; passive, to be destroyed, to perish: ἐν τίνι, by a thing, Jude 1:10; ἐν with a dative denoting the condition, ἐν τῇ φθορά αὐτῶν, 2 Peter 2:12 L T Tr WH. in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave: φθείρουσιν ἔθη χρηστά ὁμιλίαι κακαί (a saying of Menander (see ἦθος, 2), which seems to have passed into a proverb (see Wetstein at the passage; Gataker, Advers. misc. l. i. c. 1, p. 174f)), 1 Corinthians 15:33; the character of the inhabitants of the earth, Revelation 19:2; passive, φθείρομαι ἀπό τίνος, to be so corrupted as to fall away from a thing (see ἀπό, I. 3 d.), 2 Corinthians 11:3; φθειρόμενον κατά τάς ἐπιθυμίας (R. V. waxeth corrupt etc.), Ephesians 4:22. (Compare: διαφθείρω, καταφθείρω.)

To be DESTROYED means to perish and punish with death!

...........

CONCLUSION: The subject matter and context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:4-15 is
the work of “BELIEVERS” spreading the gospel who are building on the foundation of Christ. Everyones work of spreading the gospel commission will be tested with fire some will bear fruit and others will suffer loss (were not successful in bringing people to Christ and building up the Church). Though these people may not have had much success in building up the Church because they built on the FOUNDATION OF CHRIST v11 they will be saved! The scripture in v15 is therefore talking about "BELIEVERS" whose "FOUNDATION" is Christ who are saved. There is no mention here about the wicked who do not believe and live in unrepentant sin so your interpretation here is proven to be nonsense.

DESTRUCTION in the GREEK here means punishment by DEATH to be DESTROYED and PERISH!.

Sorry dear friend. It seems like God's Word disagrees with you.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · May 2, 2020

agapelove said:
Hello! This will be my first post on this forum as I am a new member. This was the first discussion that caught my eye so I will just jump in with my two cents in case anyone has the heart to listen.

I am here to take part in this friendly discussion but honestly I did not read the past 40 pages of this entire post. However, based off your very first post I can tell that you are gravely mistaken about the theology of universalism. While we do hope that all men will be ultimately reconciled to God, we are not dismissing the consequences of sin. God is just and ALL people will have to own up to their sins. The God that is wrathful and just CAN CO-EXIST with the God that loves unconditionally, whose patience endures forever.

Mercy TRIUMPHS over judgement, but it does not replace it.

I would like to share a quote by Hermann-Josef Lauter, he states

"Will it really be all men who allow themselves to be reconciled? No theology or prophecy can answer this question. But love hopes all things (1 Cor 13:7). It cannot do otherwise than to hope for the reconciliation of all men in Christ. Such unlimited hope is, from the Christian standpoint, not only permitted but commanded."

Hi there agapelove, nice to meet you and welcome. What is it that you claims I am mistaken with about universalism. No one here has been able to show me what I am mistaken about yet so I would be happy to hear from you.

Perhaps you could let me know how your not dismissing the consequences for sin? So far your freinds here will say that the unrepentant wicked will spend their time in the lake of fire until JESUS forces them to repent and worship him. Is that your view also?

If it is perhaps you can show me where in the scriptures it says that the unrepentant wicked will not be destroyed and come out of the lake of fire and enter into God's Kingdom? No one has been able to show me any scripture to support these claims. The only scripture anyone has provided in pre-second coming scriptures relevant to the wicked who accept Christs gift of Grace. Scripture please.

I am not interested to receive quotes from men. I wish to see scripture from God. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though and I look forward to a friendly discussion with you about God's Word. Welcome here dear friend.

Blessings...

agapelove · May 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
We have His word, the same word that Jesus read---that is all new Christians had for the NT had not been put together for at least 70 years after the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is who inspired the NT---It is He who created this earth, and it is the scriptures that upholds our faith. If it is not in the bible, we must not add or detract from it and must be careful or loose our way. It is tempting to start to think of what we want the word to say instead of what it actually does say. It does not say that all will repent and be saved. It says He has made it possible for all to be saved.
This is not only directed at true Israel, for we are Spiritual Israel--

Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is for us now. We are to take our strength in the Father, Just as Jesus did, and overcome and repent from sin, which means, turn away from it. Jesus is our example.

The Bible is made up of human words "inspired by God" and a collection of visions and prophecies. Is there real proof besides stories written down thousands of years ago? No. But you and I still choose to accept it as our reality. That is what I mean when I say universalism cannot be proven, but by FAITH in God's love I choose to accept it as a possible reality. Am I making things up about God's love? Do you think I am overestimating? No, I am simply choosing to believe what Jesus told us about God - He really IS that good. Universalism IS in the bible if you choose to see it.

FineLinen · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
This is where you are mistaken dear Fine. Did you know know God's Word does indeed save us as we beleive and follow them?

Lover: The Lord of Glory is the ONLY foundation for salvation in all tenses, including the present progressive. Give up your if's and's and but's. Our salvation is NOT based in what we do, it is HIM from start to finish.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy!

agapelove · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi there agapelove, nice to meet you and welcome. What is it that you claims I am mistaken with about universalism. No one here has been able to show me what I am mistaken about yet so I would be happy to hear from you.

Perhaps you could let me know how your not dismissing the consequences for sin? So far your freinds here will say that the unrepentant wicked will spend their time in the lake of fire until JESUS forces them to repent and worship him. Is that your view also?

If it is perhaps you can show me where in the scriptures it says that the unrepentant wicked will not be destroyed and come out of the lake of fire and enter into God's Kingdom? No one has been able to show me any scripture to support these claims. The only scripture anyone has provided in pre-second coming scriptures relevant to the wicked who accept Christs gift of Grace. Scripture please.

I am not interested to receive quotes from men. I wish to see scripture from God. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though and I look forward to a friendly discussion with you about God's Word. Welcome here dear friend.

Blessings...

Hello.

I say you are mistaken because you seem to be putting words into our mouths that we are not actually saying... nobody is saying that Jesus is torturing people in the lake of fire and then forcing them to repent. Just like we were not forced to repent here on Earth, but we do it out of realizing it is what will save us.

Is it an outrageous idea to suggest that the Lake of Fire may very well BE God? The consuming fire of love? (Isaiah 33:14 Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?") What would it feel like to be in God's love, but rejecting it? Eventually, you realize you are thirsty, and then the only way to quench your thirst is to drink from the river of life (Rev 22:1).

I have already said that if you are looking for EXPLICIT verses that literally say what we are saying, then you will not find it. But take into account the references and connections that are abundant in the Bible. If you cannot find redemption of the Lake of Fire in Revelation, then you can find it in Jeremiah about Gehenna. They are essentially talking about the same thing! But God does not like to speak in plain language, does he?

mmksparbud · May 2, 2020

agapelove said:
The Bible is made up of human words "inspired by God" and a collection of visions and prophecies. Is there real proof besides stories written down thousands of years ago? No. But you and I still choose to accept it as our reality. That is what I mean when I say universalism cannot be proven, but by FAITH in God's love I choose to accept it as a possible reality. Am I making things up about God's love? Do you think I am overestimating? No, I am simply choosing to believe what Jesus told us about God - He really IS that good. Universalism IS in the bible if you choose to see it.

It is if you choose to ignore all the other verses that state the opposite. You have the right to choose whatever you want to think. I choose to take the word of God in it's entirety. Not just the parts I want to see. That is my choice. I also choose to never open His word without praying that His Holy Spirit will reveal to me His truth and not my own. And now---I just really have to say good night. God Bless.

agapelove · May 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
It is if you choose to ignore all the other verses that state the opposite. You have the right to choose whatever you want to think. I choose to take the word of God in it's entirety. Not just the parts I want to see. That is my choice. I also choose to never open His word without praying that His Holy Spirit will reveal to me His truth and not my own. And now---I just really have to say good night. God Bless.

I do the same as well.

I did not come to the conclusion of universalism without the help of God.

I am not ignoring the verses that say the opposite, but rather I am acknowledging that "Mercy triumphs" over them. God tells us that he is free to relent even when judgment is promised (Hos 11, Jonah 1:1, 3:4, 10, 4:2, 11.) Should I be upset if He decides to change his mind, or decides to break his promise? If Jesus always tell us to side with mercy and kindness, then that is what I will do! I give God the freedom to pursue his sheep "until they are found". I give God the freedom to play out history as long as it takes until "every knee will bow", "all things will be restored/reconciled", "all will be made alive", and everything will be "summed up in Christ".

Goodnight! I hope to chat more with you another day.

LoveGodsWord · May 2, 2020

agapelove said:
I have already said that if you are looking for EXPLICIT verses that literally say what we are saying, then you will not find it.

What words are you claiming I am putting into your mouth? Please prove your claims. If you cannot why make claims that are not true? If you have no scripture for you view does that not worry you that perhaps what your following is not biblical? That is the only reasons I have asked these questions here.

agapelove · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Well that is not true dear friend. What words are you claiming I am putting into your mouth? Please prove your claims. If you cannot why make claims that are not true?

I posted this earlier to you. How is what you are posting above addressing what I have shared with you?

Perhaps you could let me know how your not dismissing the consequences for sin? So far your freinds here will say that the unrepentant wicked will spend their time in the lake of fire until JESUS forces them to repent and worship him. Is that your view also?

If it is perhaps you can show me where in the scriptures it says that the unrepentant wicked will not be destroyed and come out of the lake of fire and enter into God's Kingdom? No one has been able to show me any scripture to support these claims. The only scripture anyone has provided in pre-second coming scriptures relevant to the wicked who accept Christs gift of Grace. Scripture please.

I am not interested to receive quotes from men. I wish to see scripture from God. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though and I look forward to a friendly discussion with you about God's Word.

Blessings...

You say, quote "your friends here will say that the unrepentant wicked will spend their time in the lake of fire until JESUS forces them to repent and worship him" unquote. Nobody has said this, and that is not what universalists claim.

I answered your question as to how God will get people to repent in the lake of fire.

You can scroll up to find it! Please see: God is the consuming fire of love. His method of conversion is based upon love and compassion not retributive justice. (You can study the greek words timoria and kolasis within the context of the Bible.)

As for the consequence of sin.... I really wonder what the process of purification inside the lake of fire will feel like. (Mark 9:49 Every one shall be salted with fire.) The Lake of Fire is not strictly for the wicked, but for all sinners (including you and me).

Mark 9: 43-48 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."

Wouldn't you agree that we ALL have a hand or foot that needs to be cut off? Will I enjoy plucking my eyeball out? No. That is the consequence of sin.

And although I admit that I cannot give you the explicit evidence you are looking for, I would argue that YOUR argument is equally invalid if you take into account all the verses that speak on restoration and and mercy in the Bible.

Oldmantook · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Your claims here are nonsense dear friend as you agree with the context I have provided that shows your earlier claims are in error. No your new claims is in relation to the translations which if you remember I partly discussed in an earlier post when dicussing the verb tenses including the participle tense of plynontes of REVELATION 22:14 (see post # 533 linked).

In that post we looked at the two translations and I stated I did not mind each translation but was able to show that the translation you offered "wash their robes" does not match the verb tense to ongoing or continuing where as "do his commandments" fulfills this use of the scriptures within the Koine Greek application to an ongoing or continuing act of obedience. A more detailed response is provided in the post # 533 linked. I suggest you re-read it.

Your post #533 does not even address the Greek text. Why is that? Instead you assume things about the Greek that are simply not true which betrays your unfamiliarity with the Greek. Are you not aware that the English translations do not always line up with the original language yet you continue to rely on them without bothering to check for yourself? That amounts to presumption, if not laziness. As I wrote earlier and have repeated several times BOTH "wash robes" and "do his commandments" ARE PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLES. Thus they are translated as "washing" or "doing." Those in the new Jerusalem have already WASHED their robes/DONE God's commandment thus it is impossible for v.14 to be referring to them.

LoveGodsWord said:
The Textus Receptus reading makes more sense. The word "wash" in the NA/UBS reading is a present participle in the Greek, signifying an ongoing action. Hence the washing of robes is expressed to be an ongoing action, not a single occurrence. However, this notion of ongoing washing is at odds with what the Bible says elsewhere about being washed. Revelation 7:14 says that those who came out of great tribulation "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "Washed" is in the aorist tense which does not necessarily suggest ongoing action. This makes sense because, as is revealed by this verse, the washing of robes symbolizes the cleansing by the blood of Christ. Such an act is a completed event at the time of conversion. Revelation 1:5 says that Christ "washed us from our sins in his own blood". To "do his commandments", however, is an ongoing act even in other passages of scripture ("keep his commandments": 1 John 2:3, 3:22, 5:2-3, Revelation 12:17, 14:12). Revelation 22:14 switches "keep" to "do" because the immediate context contrasts the "doing" of immoral conduct with the "doing" of godly conduct (Revelation 22:11-15). With respect to the criticism that the Textus Receptus reading supports a work-based salvation, the reading does not support a work based salvation any more than other passages of John in the Gospel and the Epistle which call upon true Christians to keep Christ's commandments. Consider 1 John 3:23-24: "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." (Source kjv today)

Again, you rely on quoting others which does not even address the issue. The saints in the city have already washed their robes per the requirement of Rev 14:12. Therefore they cannot be the ones washing robes/doing his commandments in Rev 22:14 as you have already admitted that the prophecy is completed in this verse and v.15. You have not addressed the fact that the sinners in the LOF are the only ones left to go about washing their robes/doing his commandments. Someone has to be the one doing his commandments in v.14 and it certainly cannot be the saints who have already done his commandments and kept their faith in Jesus. Care to address this discrepancy with your view?

While you think about that, I'll toss you another bone to chew on.
Question to you: Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem?

23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

LoveGodsWord · May 2, 2020

Oldmantook said:
Your post #533 does not even address the Greek text. Why is that? Instead you assume things about the Greek that are simply not true which betrays your unfamiliarity with the Greek. Are you not aware that the English translations do not always line up with the original language yet you continue to rely on them without bothering to check for yourself? That amounts to presumption, if not laziness. As I wrote earlier and have repeated several times BOTH "wash robes" and "do his commandments" ARE PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLES. Thus they are translated as "washing" or "doing." Those in the new Jerusalem have already WASHED their robes/DONE God's commandment thus it is impossible for v.14 to be referring to them.

Again, you rely on quoting others which does not even address the issue. The saints in the city have already washed their robes per the requirement of Rev 14:12. Therefore they cannot be the ones washing robes/doing his commandments in Rev 22:14 as you have already admitted that the prophecy is completed in this verse and v.15. You have not addressed the fact that the sinners in the LOF are the only ones left to go about washing their robes/doing his commandments. Someone has to be the one doing his commandments in v.14 and it certainly cannot be the saints who have already done his commandments and kept their faith in Jesus. Care to address this discrepancy with your view?

While you think about that, I'll toss you another bone to chew on.
Question to you: Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem?

23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Well what a load of nonsense. I am sorry dear friend you are good at making lots of empty claims that you cannot prove from the scriptures. I did spend a lot of time to help you to understand the Greek word applications, and the scripture contexts applied to REVELATION 22:14 you were leaving out of your interpretation of the scriptures. I also spent some considerable time looking at the different translations with you and also why I believe your translation does not fit your interpretation. I also used the same definitions verb tenses that you used to show you why your interpretation is in error. So I believe I went through all of your posts section by section and scripture by scripture. This is evidenced especially in post # 533 linked; post # 695 and more recently in post # 842 linked.

Now don't tell me I did not address the Greek verb tenses of REVELATION 22:14 when you know very well I did and showed why I disagreed with your application as applied in your translation in posts post # 533 linked and also expanded on this further on your claims of translations in post # 842 linked. All your proving dear friend is dishonesty as the linked posts already prove and state I am telling you the truth and that I used the present tense verb application or more accuratly to πλύνοντες being "ongoing" applied in REVELATION 22:14

Maybe you did not read what you are quoting from. Read the post to you they state present tense verb use (see post # 533 and post # 842). Now if I have specifically stated that πλύνοντες in your tranlation in REVELATION 22:14 is PRESENT TENSE - ONGOING and have used this to prove why your tranlsation runs into problems. Why are you pretending that I have not addressed this?

In this post your dear friend all you have done is the same thing you did to my other posts. You simply did not bother to address any of the content. We simply call this hand waiving where I come from. So I think our discussion is over unless you want to prove your claims from scripture and address my posts section by section and scripture by scripture as I have done with your posts instead of making untrue empty accusations and claims you cannot or refuse to prove.

All your post here is showing is that you did not read my last three posts to you as your repeating things already addressed in detail within these posts without addressing what I have already provided you. I feel your not being honest now or your not reading the posts and scriptures shared with you. I am not quite sure which.

So which one is it?

LoveGodsWord · May 2, 2020

agapelove said:
The Bible is made up of human words "inspired by God" and a collection of visions and prophecies. Is there real proof besides stories written down thousands of years ago? No. But you and I still choose to accept it as our reality. That is what I mean when I say universalism cannot be proven, but by FAITH in God's love I choose to accept it as a possible reality. Am I making things up about God's love? Do you think I am overestimating? No, I am simply choosing to believe what Jesus told us about God - He really IS that good. Universalism IS in the bible if you choose to see it.

I see dear friend this explains a lot (red emphasis highlighted above is mine). Let me know if I am reading you correctly here. It seems you believe the scriptures are a story book and not really the Word of God? Is that your belief? Sorry how you have written the above is confusing to me. It sounds like you cannot prove what you believe and even if God's Word tells us something you choose to believe somthing different. I am only asking for clarification. You do know that we are only saved by God's grace through faith in these very Words of God right?

LoveGodsWord · May 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
Lover: The Lord of Glory is the ONLY foundation for salvation in all tenses, including the present progressive. Give up your if's and's and but's. Our salvation is NOT based in what we do, it is HIM from start to finish.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy!

You are confused dear Fine. There is no works in faith that we have done. As it is by God's grace he saves us as we have faith in His Words. It is true however that faith without works is only a dead faith possessed by those who only have a form of Godliness and deny God's power that saves those who believe. God's salvation dear friend is conditional according to the scriptures on believing and following Gods' Word from start to finish....

...........

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list my dear friend. There is only life in the living waters dear friend. There is no life in the gambling lady of second chances. When JESUS returns according to the scriptures there are no more second chances for the unrepentant wicked.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · May 2, 2020

agapelove said:
You say, quote "your friends here will say that the unrepentant wicked will spend their time in the lake of fire until JESUS forces them to repent and worship him" unquote. Nobody has said this, and that is not what universalists claim.

Really? Well that is not true. Have a chat to some of your friends here.

agapelove said:
I answered your question as to how God will get people to repent in the lake of fire. You can scroll up to find it! Please see: God is the consuming fire of love. His method of conversion is based upon love and compassion not retributive justice. (You can study the greek words timoria and kolasis within the context of the Bible.)

Yes I read what you said. It is not biblical though you simply provided an opinion. According to the scriptures the lake of fire is where the unrepentant wicked go that are DESTROYED and is the same place that is prepared for the devil and his angels as shown in the scriptures *MATTHEW 7:12-27; MATTHEW 25:31-41; HEBREWS 10:26-31; REVELATION 22:12; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:10. Do you remember in my first post to you where I said I am only interested in discussing the scriptures and when I asked you and yo usaid you have none? Does this not concern you? If should dear friend. The wicked according to the scriptures are destroyed at the second coming *MATTHEW 15:31-41.

agapelove said:
As for the consequence of sin.... I really wonder what the process of purification inside the lake of fire will feel like. (Mark 9:49 Every one shall be salted with fire.) The Lake of Fire is not strictly for the wicked, but for all sinners (including you and me).

As shown in the scriptures above. Those who are the unrepentant wicked will not feel much. They will be burnt to ashes and die and cease to exist. It's not a place you should wish to wonder about if you believe the scriptures.

agapelove said:
Mark 9: 43-48 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell." Wouldn't you agree that we ALL have a hand or foot that needs to be cut off? Will I enjoy plucking my eyeball out? No. That is the consequence of sin.

Indeed the message is that we should turn away from sin and believe and follow God's Word. We do not need to have our hands and feet cut off if we accept the free gift of God's dear son and believe and follow Gods' Word till the end.

agapelove said:
And although I admit that I cannot give you the explicit evidence you are looking for, I would argue that YOUR argument is equally invalid if you take into account all the verses that speak on restoration and and mercy in the Bible.

If you have no scripture to support what you believe and I can provide you scripture to support what I believe how can my argument be invalid? I believe the problem with Universalism is that it is the opposite extreme of those who believe in the false teachings of eternal burning hell (EBH). The EBH guys extremely focus on God's justice and judgements while Universalism ignores God's justice and judgements and only focuses on God's love and mercy.

I believe the scriptures teach a middle ground that God is a God of LOVE, MERCY, JUSTICE and JUDGEMENT. Did you know that it is only by understanding God's JUSTICE and JUDGEMENT that we can see God's LOVE? How so you might ask? Well, it is only in God's justice and judgement we see God's love to a fallen world in sending JESUS to die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins by receiveing God's justice and judgements for the sins of all those who choose to receive Gods' free gift of God's Grace.

It is here at the cross of God's justice and judgement for SIN that we see the greatest act of LOVE known to mankind. God's justice and judgement for sin where God's love is revealed. God being a God of justice and judgment proves God's LOVE and MERCY.

Can you see God's love in God's justice and judgements at the cross of JESUS dear agapelove? I can. How about you?

FineLinen · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
You are confused dear Fine. There is no works in faith that we have done. As it is by God's grace he saves us as we have faith in His Words.

Lover: It is very fortunate we arrived on this link of yours just in the nick of time for you to set us straight (lol) with your extensive gobs of goggledegook.

We stand before Him stark naked, in dire need of the Touch of all touches. Nothing to offer Him, absolutely notin! It is in this fallen condition He finds us, broken & bruised requiring at-one-ment. Yes, He is the Master of broken mankind, not simply wanting us Home, but determined it shall be! Yup, He "willeth (thelo)" all mankind to be saved!

Your dogma (#7) maintains most of the lost fallen wrecks will be lost.

The restitution of the ta pavnte declares otherwise!

No more let sin & sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow "far as the curse is found.."

The radical all of creation shall be delivered from the tyranny of change & decay into His glorious Plan of at-one-ment.

FineLinen · May 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Go back to where you asked the same question---several times, and have been answered. I've gone over this and over this with you---there comes a time when one must brush the dust off---good night.

Come in Vegas: The Lake of Fire & Deity is our great God radiating with theion & theioo. Both of these wonderful ingredients are rooted in none other than Theos.

Yup, our God is Fire, He will not be brushed off, He will not be evaded!

After being in His Presence for a few moons now, I am beginning (note beginning) to take on some of those characteristics in tiny portions.

What you cannot ignore =

There is a unique group in the churches to whom the Spirit is speaking. They are referred to as overcomers. They ONLY are not "hurt" by the 2nd death. They cannot be hurt any more fully. The work of God has reached into every dark avenue to bring about alignment with Him.

Hurt = adikeo = to do hurt.

Overcomer = nikao = to prevail.

Shrewd Manager · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Sure he was. You do not he was instrumentally used by God to turn people away from man made teachings and traditions of the Church back to the pure Word of God right?

So, let me get this straight. Early Church largely accepts the Hebraic view, being that God is divine fire and saves whomever He will from death and hell by fire.

Then Augustine comes along, fatherless fellow, ambitious, with a mighty intellect, Roman law, Latin language, pagan dualist philosophy background, and pushes damnation theory into top spot in Church eschatology.

Pope then receives a memo from theologians unknown to the effect 'Sorry Boss, but that means we're all damned, cause NOBODY dies without sin but Jesus.' So the solution is postulated, hmmmm...Purgatory, the cleansing ale for believers 'on the right path'. Phew, that was close. And it worked, seeing as the Lake of Fire was already there, in scripture. Well how about that?

Ok, fast forward a few hundred years, this Damnation and Purgatory deal's causing issues, not least in the form spiritual terrorism, Papal indulgences, endemic corruption, Rome again become the devil's playground. Oh Rome, wilt thou ever?

So God raises up prophets, notably Savonarola the Florentine, who shook it up, but still they refused to repent. Then Luther, remembered for his inspired refocus on 'sola fides', justification by faith alone, relying primarily on Hab 2:4, raged against the machine.

'Well done faithful servant' I can envisage God saying, 'now close the gate.' But despite his vaunted contempt with the excesses of Rome, their self-serving and idolatrous system based on 'work-purgatory-heaven' credits, Luther failed to do so, he failed to LAY THE AX TO THE ROOT of the problem.

So what did the protestant reformers do? They untethered heaven from works, dispensed entirely with purgatory, and retained eternal damnation (perhaps even enlarged it). So the legacy of Luther is the DOUBLING DOWN on the problem of how a loving God can doom ppl. Las Vegas Love, here we come!

So God in His infinite wisdom returns the sceptre to the Jews. Hilarious but true. And 'modernity' ensues, in the form of usurocracy. And still the protestants don't see it, and still they clamour over the requisite degree of commitment for salvation (as though the Doctor comes for the healthy!), paying their tithes for afterlife fire insurance while scorning indulgences and works-based justification. Friend, your guys missed the boat, but it's not too late to see the error of your ways. And that's the good news.

I know you'll pay no attention to this post, but there it is. Protestantism may claim to be big on fides, but certainly there's 'room for improvement' on ratio.

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No need to guess here and post walls of second hand information from the teachings of men.

Such as you do in your post i am replying to & many other of your posts.

Perhaps you should take your own advice. And post Scripture only without adding any of your comments, opinions & "second hand information from the teachings of men."

LoveGodsWord said:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5351: φθείρω

φθείρω; future φθερῶ; 1 aorist ἐφθειρα; passive, present φθείρομαι; 2 aorist ἐφθάρην; 2 future φθαρήσομαι; (akin to German verderben); the Sept. for שִׁחֵת; (from Homer down); to corrupt, to destroy: properly, τόν ναόν τοῦ Θεοῦ (in the opinion of the Jews the temple was corrupted, or 'destroyed', when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties; cf. Deyling, Observations, sacrae, vol. ii, p. 505ff), dropping the figure, to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide, 1 Corinthians 3:17a; τινα, to punish with death, 1 Corinthians 3:17{b}; equivalent to bring to want or beggary (cf. our ruin (A. V. corrupt)), 2 Corinthians 7:2; passive, to be destroyed, to perish: ἐν τίνι, by a thing, Jude 1:10; ἐν with a dative denoting the condition, ἐν τῇ φθορά αὐτῶν, 2 Peter 2:12 L T Tr WH. in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave: φθείρουσιν ἔθη χρηστά ὁμιλίαι κακαί (a saying of Menander (see ἦθος, 2), which seems to have passed into a proverb (see Wetstein at the passage; Gataker, Advers. misc. l. i. c. 1, p. 174f)), 1 Corinthians 15:33; the character of the inhabitants of the earth, Revelation 19:2; passive, φθείρομαι ἀπό τίνος, to be so corrupted as to fall away from a thing (see ἀπό, I. 3 d.), 2 Corinthians 11:3; φθειρόμενον κατά τάς ἐπιθυμίας (R. V. waxeth corrupt etc.), Ephesians 4:22. (Compare: διαφθείρω, καταφθείρω.)

To be DESTROYED means to perish and punish with death!

Nothing there supports the annihilationist opinion that the Greek word must mean endless annihilation.

OTOH where is the justice in eternal annihilation for the sins of a few years or decades? Especially when Christ has died for such & His blood shed for those sins. Does the compassion of Love Omnipotent have an expiry date like a carton of milk? Is His hand shortened that it is powerless to save?

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

JacksBratt said:
God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....

Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.

Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Oldmantook · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Well what a load of nonsense. I am sorry dear friend you are good at making lots of empty claims that you cannot prove from the scriptures. I did spend a lot of time to help you to understand the Greek word applications, and the scripture contexts applied to REVELATION 22:14 you were leaving out of your interpretation of the scriptures. I also spent some considerable time looking at the different translations with you and also why I believe your translation does not fit your interpretation. I also used the same definitions verb tenses that you used to show you why your interpretation is in error. So I believe I went through all of your posts section by section and scripture by scripture. This is evidenced especially in post # 533 linked; post # 695 and more recently in post # 842 linked.

Now don't tell me I did not address the Greek verb tenses of REVELATION 22:14 when you know very well I did and showed why I disagreed with your application as applied in your translation in posts post # 533 linked and also expanded on this further on your claims of translations in post # 842 linked. All your proving dear friend is dishonesty as the linked posts already prove and state I am telling you the truth and that I used the present tense verb application or more accuratly to πλύνοντες being "ongoing" applied in REVELATION 22:14

Maybe you did not read what you are quoting from. Read the post to you they state present tense verb use (see post # 533 and post # 842). Now if I have specifically stated that πλύνοντες in your tranlation in REVELATION 22:14 is PRESENT TENSE - ONGOING and have used this to prove why your tranlsation runs into problems. Why are you pretending that I have not addressed this?

In this post your dear friend all you have done is the same thing you did to my other posts. You simply did not bother to address any of the content. We simply call this hand waiving where I come from. So I think our discussion is over unless you want to prove your claims from scripture and address my posts section by section and scripture by scripture as I have done with your posts instead of making untrue empty accusations and claims you cannot or refuse to prove.

All your post here is showing is that you did not read my last three posts to you as your repeating things already addressed in detail within these posts without addressing what I have already provided you. I feel your not being honest now or your not reading the posts and scriptures shared with you. I am not quite sure which.

So which one is it?

Apparently you are so wedded to your belief that you cannot see the forest from the trees. Ongoing is indeed applied to Rev 22:14 BUT THE PROBLEM which you have failed to address is how is that ongoing action applicable TO THE SAINTS? Answer me the question of how are the saints doing his commandments when they have already done his commandments per Rev 14:12, and as a result of their obedience, live in the new Jerusalem?? I've seen nothing in your posts which answers that. It is the sinners in the LOF in v.15 who have to be doing his commandments as that is the reason that they are there in the first place. They failed to trust in Jesus and obey God's commandments in their mortal lives and consequently have to suffer in the consequences of doing God's commandments in the lake of fire in their resurrected lives. As a result of doing his commandments in the LOF, they will one day have the right to the tree of life and enter the city gates as specified in v.14. Comprende?

Furthermore you conspicuously avoided answering my direct question to you as to Why and how do the "kings of the earth" referenced in Rev 21:23-27 enter into the new Jerusalem?
Since our discussion has been at an impasse for quite some time, I asked you that question to demonstrate to you from the scriptures that your view is incorrect. You can either choose to answer it or refuse.

ClementofA · May 2, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Really? Well that is not true. Have a chat to some of your friends here.

Such as? Please provide quotes & post numbers.

"your friends here will say that the unrepentant wicked will spend their time in the lake of fire until JESUS forces them to repent and worship him"

Some universalists will say something similar to that, but i think the vast majority would reject the notion.

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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