Are You of Israel?

Davy said:

You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing against God's written Word, because the label 'king of the Jews' Pilate put on a sign over Jesus' cross was to mock Him, and to mock the Jews who had Him murdered.

Matt 27:27-30
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto Him the whole band of soldiers.
28 And they stripped Him, and put on Him a scarlet robe.
29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon His head, and a reed in His right hand: and they bowed the knee before Him, and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30 And they spit upon Him, and took the reed, and smote Him on the head.
KJV

Matt 27:35-37
35 And they crucified Him, and parted His garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, 'They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.'
36 And sitting down they watched Him there;
37 And set up over His head His accusation written, 'THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.'
KJV

It was the MOCKERS who gave Jesus that title of 'king of the Jews', which were the Roman soldiers who did those things to my Lord Jesus after Pilate had condemned Him to be crucified.

Jesus is NOT king of the Jews. He is King of ALL Israel.

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Just like Christian was a mockery of those who followed Yeshua.

visionary said:

"Jew" was commonly used to identify this nation of people.

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I gave ample evidence in my post as to who the title Jew began to be applied to, i.e., those who returned from the Babylon captivity to Jerusalem/Judea. Ezra 2 mentions NONE of the ten tribes returning, and even in Ezra 8 it shows Ezra had to send the head Nethinim (temple servant) back to Babylon to get Levites because Ezra saw none among the people returning.

The title of Jew comes from the sole tribe of Judah, and it applied ONLY to the southern "kingdom of Judah" that went captive to Babylon for 70 years.

But of course modern Jewish leaders like to throw that title Jew around wrongly applying it to all Israelites. The reason they get by with that is because they know the majority aren't really going to study their Bible history.

1. God split old Israel into two kingdoms
a. Rehoboam of Judah, son of Solomon, over tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and eventually Levi, in the south at Jerusalem, called the "kingdom of JUDAH".
b. Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, God gave him to be king over ten tribes in the north at Samaria, called the "kingdom of ISRAEL".

2. both kingdoms had war against each other, Rehoboam trying to bring back the whole kingdom.
3. Jeroboam setup idol worship in the north. The Levites left and went south and joined with Judah. Some small remnants of the ten tribes also went south to Jerusalem. The majority of the ten tribes remained in the north with Jeroboam.
4. God brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten northern tribe kingdom and ended it, removing the ten tribes to Assyria and the land of the Medes, never to return, even to this day.
5. ONLY the "house of Judah", or "kingdom of Judah" remained in the land, south at Jerusalem-Judea. They were made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.
6. About 120 years after God had removed the ten tribes, the "house of Judah" also fell away to false worship. God then brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar upon Jerusalem, and took them captive to Babylon for 70 years. Only a small remnant of the "house of Judah" returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years.

That final state of the "house of Judah" is who used the title of JEW for themselves. That became a JEWISH state. The majority of the ten tribes were gone, and were NOT part of it.

expos4ever said:

Again, not sure what your point is, but I will guess that you believe that 1 Timothy 1 supports continued obedience to the Law. I do not see how. Consider this part (literal translation):

and we have known that the law [is] good, if any one may use it lawfully;

This is not surprising - we know that Paul believes the Law is good. But that is not the same thing as saying it is still in force.

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My point in quoting 1 Timothy 1 is that many of God's laws are still... in effect today, and is how western Christian society has been traditionally ruled. Those in Christ are symbolically 'dead' to the law IF we walk by The Holy Spirit. That's what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 5 also that goes with what he showed in 1 Timothy 1.

What Jesus nailed to His cross were the ordinances in the law, ritual, blood ordinances, etc. He didn't throw away God's moral law, nor laws against murder, rape, thefts, perjury, ie. the things Paul showed in that 1 Timothy 1 chapter which is CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

nolidad said:

Well you totally misunderstood what I was saying in my post. Of course there were pre-incarnate "theophanies" of Jesus, but He was not known as jesus! He was called Elohim, Jehovah and THE angel of the Lord. But Messiah was not known by His name Jesus until He was born!

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Nah, I didn't misunderstand you.

You said:
"But we also know that until Jesus was revealed as Messiah, no one had the knowledge of Jesus as Messiah! They knew a Messiah was coming, but I do agree righteousness has always been imputed by the revelation of god!"

The knowledge of Jesus as Messiah is about the Old Testament prophecies about Messiah. Those prophecies DID give His name, you simply haven't dug deep enough to realize it.

"Jesus" comes from...
Greek Iesous, which comes from...
Hebrew Yehoshua, WHICH MEANS...
Yahaveh is Salvation! That is actually what the name Jesus means.

And the word "Christ" comes from Greek christos, which means anointed, and is the equivalent to Hebrew for Messiah (mashiyach).

Put it all together as 'Jesus Christ' and you essentially have:
Yahaveh's Anointed Saviour.

But my bigger point was that Abraham knew, which Jesus showed at the end of John 8, saying Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced!

King David was a prophet also, as God gave details of Christ's crucifixion in Psalms 22, even down to those who would cast lots on Jesus' clothing.

So you cannot... work a play on the name Jesus to try and prove no one in OT times knew about Christ's day.

visionary said:

Just like Christian was a mockery of those who followed Yeshua.

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That's kind of a SICK statement, and has nothing to do with what I showed from Scripture.

Just because you don't like the truth about the origin of that title 'king of the Jews' doesn't mean you have to get all upset about it and start spewing.

When Jesus Christ returns, He is NOT going to be called the king of the Jews. He is going to be called KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS, as written (Revelation 19:16).

I recognize your type, you also maybe like to do word play with the name Yeshua, like if one doesn't recognize The Saviour using the name Yeshua, then they can't be a true Christian? No, the name Jesus, or Iesous, are also fine to use. God knows how we speak and hear, so prayer using those titles He understands also.

Davy said:

That's kind of a SICK statement, and has nothing to do with what I showed from Scripture.

Just because you don't like the truth about the origin of that title 'king of the Jews' doesn't mean you have to get all upset about it and start spewing.

When Jesus Christ returns, He is NOT going to be called the king of the Jews. He is going to be called KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS, as written (Revelation 19:16).

I recognize your type, you also maybe like to do word play with the name Yeshua, like if one doesn't recognize The Saviour using the name Yeshua, then they can't be a true Christian? No, the name Jesus, or Iesous, are also fine to use. God knows how we speak and hear, so prayer using those titles He understands also.

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Facts are facts. The followers of Yeshua were first referred to as “Christians” by the Gentiles of Syrian Antioch, and the name was meant as an insult. Acts 11:26

Believers never refer to themselves as “Christians”.
They use such terms as brethren Acts 15:1; 1 Corinthians 16:20,
disciples Acts 11:26; 14:24,
saints Acts 9:13; 2 Corinthians 13:13
Before his conversion Paul sought out those “who belonged to the Way” Acts 9:2, indicating that an early label for believers could have been “people of the Way” Acts 19:9; 24:22. Yeshua often talked about the Light, the Truth, and the Way.

visionary said:

Facts are facts. The followers of Yeshua were first referred to as “Christians” by the Gentiles of Syrian Antioch, and the name was meant as an insult. Acts 11:26

Believers never refer to themselves as “Christians”.
They use such terms as brethren Acts 15:1; 1 Corinthians 16:20,
disciples Acts 11:26; 14:24,
saints Acts 9:13; 2 Corinthians 13:13
Before his conversion Paul sought out those “who belonged to the Way” Acts 9:2, indicating that an early label for believers could have been “people of the Way” Acts 19:9; 24:22. Yeshua often talked about the Light, the Truth, and the Way.

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I am a Christian. I am not ashamed of that name.
Randy

HARK! said:

The Father gave the law to Moses. The law of Moses is the law of YHWH. YHWH is fairly clear about his will.

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This is not an argument - it is an unsupported statement. We all know that God gave the Law to Moses - the question on the table is "is it still in force under a new covenant".

I still see no compelling evidence for the persistence of the Law of Moses and plenty for its abolition (retirement, really).

HARK! said:

Surely you don't genuinely believe that YHWH's word changes on the political wind.

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Again, you completely evade my argument. If, as I am claiming, the language about the law not ending till "heaven and earth pass away" is indeed indeed metaphorical, and not to be taken literally, you really need to deal with that argument.

Where is your case that I am mistaken, that such language is not metaphorical?

HARK! said:

I don't get it. Where does this say that doing the will of my father in heaven, is a metaphor for doing what is right in my own eyes?

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Do you expect a metaphor to be announced?

Come on, man - the whole point of metaphor is to let the reader figure it out for themselves.

HARK! said:

This is:

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

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I agree that I have yet to deal with this text, but I will. How about you explaining how we are supposed to think the Law is still in force given this from Paul:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter