Who Goes To Hell?

Hieronymus said:

But it was possible, so where did you go wrong in your reasoning?

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The claim that sin/unrighteousness/the unholy cannot be in God's presence is demonstrated false by the fact of the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran

Saint Steven said:

No, but "eternal conscious torment" is the standard definition.

I would contend that no one chooses to go to hell. They are sent there. (assuming there is a hell) If a person were to actually choose to go to hell, how would they get there? No way to get there on our own. One must be put there. The church position is to shift the blame onto the victim.

I liked the poem though.

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Try to stop working with such a narrow idea of hell, that it's some sort of actual "place" where there is external, conscious torment being placed upon an individual for all eternity. That is one perspective that has existed within the history of the Church, but it is not the perspective.

Hence I referred to the varied thoughts and ideas present among all the historic fathers of the Church earlier in this thread.

If I bring you into my home, and while in my home--receiving all the benefits that might entail--shelter, a place to rest, food, etc--you choose to reject those gifts, by refusing to eat, by choosing to sleep on a cold floor rather than a warm bed, by any manner of things. Did I cause you harm? Or have you simply chosen to be miserable while in the presence of hospitality?

Now I want you to consider the idea that the difference between heaven and hell isn't about location, but rather about the individual. That heaven and hell are the same "place", but it's our response to God's love that is the difference. Heaven is heaven because we have been transformed by the power of God's grace, God's peace has ended the hostility we had toward God, and we share in the life and light of God's love; and hell is hell because the one who is in the same blessed presence of God, no less an object of God's love and grace, instead despises that love, despises that grace, desires only themselves--and all they do is cling to their own selves and the misery that comes from within.

Am I simply making that up? No. That's exactly what the Orthodox Churches have believed for ages.

"According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

...

At the end of the ages God’s glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the face of Christ. Man’s eternal destiny—heaven or hell, salvation or damnation—depends solely on his response to this love." - The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - The Kingdom of Heaven - Heaven and Hell

-CryptoLutheran

Saint Steven said:

I told you what I saw. No one likes to play with someone that stacks the deck.

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There was no deck. We were not playing cards.. It was a scenario...

You just altered it so that you didn't have to deal with it's truth.

Just like you do to the scriptures.

In all reality, however, I don't know why you are so worried.. You state that you're a Christian.

So, if you're going to heaven as a child of God... and, in your mind.. so is everyone else..

What are you complaining about?

Saint Steven said:

I would agree that this happens in some cases. That's SOME cases...
However, you want to hang this rejection charge on EVERYONE that you consider "lost".
It simply isn't so.

The vast majority of people that you consider "lost" throughout history have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. And having NEVER heard of him could not have possibly rejected him. The current population of China is 1.4 billion. How many have rejected Christ?

Are you really okay with dumping countless billions of Chinese who have never even heard of Christ directly into hell?

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If they never heard of Christ... If they never had the opportunity to reject Him.. Then they are held to the ultimate and awesome just and righteousness of God.

Romans 1:19-20



19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.


20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.


He will determine their final place of residence.. and.. whatever that is.. nobody will be able to contradict, argue, reject, appeal or dismiss the fact that it will be right and true.

So, unless you think you can be a better judge than God... all will be righteous and each will get what they deserve..

Luke 6:38

King James Version


38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


Nobody will be without excuse... Nobody will be able to argue their sentence.

Everyone will have their time at the feet of their creator.. to plead their case..

Many... will be found wanting.

Saint Steven said:

I would agree that this happens in some cases. That's SOME cases...
However, you want to hang this rejection charge on EVERYONE that you consider "lost".
It simply isn't so.

The vast majority of people that you consider "lost" throughout history have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. And having NEVER heard of him could not have possibly rejected him. The current population of China is 1.4 billion. How many have rejected Christ?

Are you really okay with dumping countless billions of Chinese who have never even heard of Christ directly into hell?

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I've really never ever met a Christian.. so angry with God..

Anyway, This thread is turning into another hamster wheel..

I've argued this point with the same person far too long.

Time to jump off...

Saint Steven said:

It sounds like you are blaming the victim. Who created hell?

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Well God created Hell but it was never intended for human beings to go to,it was created for the demons and the devil.God is a loving but just saviour and sinners cannot get a free pass to go to heaven regardless of how good they are,Thats why you need to know Jesus as your Lord and saviour.

Der Alter said:

.....And I also provided archaeological evidence that Gehenna was never an constantly burning trash dump. There was such a dump outside Jerusalem it was the Kidron valley which was south of the temple and Gehenna valley.

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Mazel Tov. Because it does not matter. There are those who believe they have archeological evidence that a fire burned there in the days of Jesus. But it does not matter - because Gehenna was in Jerusalem and became a symbol of everlasting punishment in sheol/hades, the abode of the dead (which was not in Jerusalem).

Samuel was also in sheol/hades when king Saul got the medium to bring him up, but Samuel was not experiencing everlasting punishment/Gehenna in sheol/hades.

You have conflated two different concepts, and the facts in the encyclopedias which you mentioned are irrefutable proof that Gehenna (everlasting punishment) and sheol/hades are not the same concept. One is the abode of the dead, the other is a place in Jerusalem which symbolizes everlasting punishment.

Death and hades/the abode of the dead are the two sides of the same coin. It's THE SAME coin.

At the GWT, Jesus has revealed that death and hades will deliver up the dead in them and all whose names are not found in the book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire together with death and hades and there will be no more death after that, so hades will be empty (that's the Lord's Revelation, not mine).

I appreciate everything you are saying but you have come to the wrong conclusions based on the facts you gave because you are mixing up different concepts - conflating sheol/hades with the concept of eternal punishment/Gehenna.

In the New Testament:

"HELL":

The New Testament was originally written in Greek, and translated into many other languages. The word "hell" does not appear in the New Testament's original language. There are three words which appear:

1. Gehenna, which Jesus used as a metaphor for everlasting punishment.
2. Hades, which in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuaginta) always referred to the abode of the dead, and was a translation of the Hebrew word sheol.
3. Tartarus - the bottomless pit - only mentioned once by Peter (2 Peter 2:4).

4. Jesus also makes reference in a parable to "Abraham's bosom" where quite obviously the departed souls of the dead went who had like-faith in the Word of God that Abraham had, and that Noah had before him, and that Seth and the sons of Seth had before Noah.

Jesus spoke of a chasm between those in Abraham's bosom and hades, but there is no clear indication in the New Testament of whether the abode of the dead (hades) was divided into different sections separated by chasms, or if there were different abodes of the dead.

LAKE OF FIRE

In His revelation to His servants given to His apostle John, Jesus gives John a vision of a Great White Throne and books being opened. At this point hades and death deliver up all the souls in them and whoever's name was not found in the Book of Life (through faith in Jesus) are cast into the lake of fire. Death and hades, too, are cast into the lake of fire and there is no more dying after that, no more death.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Mazel Tov. Because it does not matter. There are those who believe they have archeological evidence that a fire burned there in the days of Jesus. But it does not matter - because Gehenna was in Jerusalem and became a symbol of everlasting punishment in sheol/hades, the abode of the dead (which was not in Jerusalem).

But Samuel was also in sheol/hades when king Saul got the medium to bring him up, but Samuel was not experiencing everlasting punishment/Gehenna in sheol/hades.

You have conflated two different concepts, and the facts in the encyclopedias which you mentioned are irrefutable proof that Gehenna and sheol/hades are not the same concept. One is the abode of the dead, the other is a place in Jerusalem which symbolizes everlasting punishment.

Death and hades/the abode of the dead are the two sides of the same coin. It's THE SAME coin. At the GWT, death and hades will deliver up the dead in them and all whose names are not found in the book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire together with death and hades and there will be no more death after that, so hades will be empty (that's the Lord's Revelation, not mine).

I appreciate everything you are saying but you have come to the wrong conclusions based on the facts you gave because you are mixing up different concepts - conflating sheol/hades with the concept of eternal punishment/Gehenna.

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Sheol is the grave, and hades is Greek mythology.

martymonster said:

Sheol is the grave, and hades is Greek mythology.

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The Septuagint uses the word hades to translate the word sheol. So does the New Testament.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

The Septuagint uses the word hades to translate the word sheol. So does the New Testament.

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Yes, that maybe the case, but Sheol is still just the grave. The scriptures teach no such thing as consciousness after death. No one is conscious after death, until the first and second resurrection.

martymonster said:

Yes, that maybe the case, but Sheol is still just the grave. The scriptures teach no such thing as consciousness after death. No one is conscious after death, until the first and second resurrection.

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So Samuel wasn't conscious after death. He did not speak to Saul (because he could not have spoken to Saul or responded to the medium disturbing him if he had no consciousness).

JacksBratt said:

If they never heard of Christ... If they never had the opportunity to reject Him.. Then they are held to the ultimate and awesome just and righteousness of God.

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Explain how that is different than Universal Restoration. Thanks.

JacksBratt said:

I've really never ever met a Christian.. so angry with God..

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Oh, my... - lol

Why would I be angry with God? (large G)
More likely angry with those responsible for replacing God with an angry volcano god. (small g)

Thanks for the discussion. This has been good.

Bottom-line.
A year ago I was pretty much like the rest of you. Defending hell on biblical terms.
The difference being, if there was enough evidence to the contrary, I was willing to give up the forever burning hell. Ultimately, I had to hit the books to really learn about it. Next thing I knew, I was able to see the holes in the arguments against UR. And to my own surprise, started defending it. There's no turning back now. Life is better without a forever burning hell. Angry with God? - lol

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

So Samuel wasn't conscious after death. He did not speak to Saul (because he could not have spoken to Saul or responded to the medium disturbing him if he had no consciousness).

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Saul was obviously talking to a deceiving spirit, because Samuel was dead.

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

sunshineforJesus said:

Well God created Hell but it was never intended for human beings to go to,it was created for the demons and the devil.God is a loving but just saviour and sinners cannot get a free pass to go to heaven regardless of how good they are,Thats why you need to know Jesus as your Lord and saviour.

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Thanks for your reply.

But don't we as Christians "get a free pass to go to heaven"?
Or are you claiming that our salvation was earned somehow?

Do you know where Jesus went, and what he did, for the three days between his death and resurrection?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

The proof of the fallibility of all of us who believe in Jesus is glaringly apparent in threads like these. The Bible certainly talks about the concepts of sheol/hades on one hand, and the concept of everlasting punishment on the other hand (e.g Rev 14:9-11; Mat 8:1-12).

We have other Biblical facts, such as the fact that Samuel was not experiencing everlasting punishment in sheol/hades but king Saul had a medium calling him up from there so that king Saul could inquire of Samuel as to what to do. This and the parable of the Lord which sees Lazarus in Abraham's bosom and the rich man in torment in hades is proof that there is not nearly enough info given for us to form conclusions set in stone about all these things - if you believe (a) and someone else believes (b) and disagrees with you - it's proof that both of you are fallible and don't know enough to form conclusions about this subject and carve your conclusion in stone.

Encyclopedias talking about what different schools of thought believed regarding these concepts at the time of Jesus do not fill in the gaps. Jesus was concerned with life, not death - He had come to defeat death and hades, and the fact that the Bible says so little about what happens after death is proof that God does not want us spending more time concentrating on death than on life in Christ, legitimate as such questions may be.

"HELL":

The New Testament was originally written in Greek, and translated into many other languages. The word "hell" is always a translation of one of three words which appear:

1. Gehenna, which Jesus used as a metaphor for everlasting punishment.
2. Hades, which in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuaginta) always referred to the abode of the dead, and was a translation of the Hebrew word sheol.
3. Tartarus - the bottomless pit - only mentioned once by Peter (2 Peter 2:4).

4. Jesus also makes reference in a parable to "Abraham's bosom" where quite obviously the departed souls of the dead went who had like-faith in the Word of God that Abraham had, and that Noah had before him, and that Seth and the sons of Seth had before Noah.

Jesus spoke of a chasm between those in Abraham's bosom and hades, but there is no clear indication in the New Testament of whether the abode of the dead (hades) was divided into different sections separated by chasms, or if there were different abodes of the dead.

LAKE OF FIRE

In His revelation to His servants given to His apostle John, Jesus gives John a vision of a Great White Throne and books being opened. At this point hades and death deliver up all the souls in them and whoever's name was not found in the Book of Life (through faith in Jesus) are cast into the lake of fire. Death and hades, too, are cast into the lake of fire and there is no more dying after that, no more death.

martymonster said:

Saul was obviously talking to a deceiving spirit, because Samuel was dead.

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

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Post #156

martymonster said:

Saul was obviously talking to a deceiving spirit, because Samuel was dead.

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

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Brother Marty,
Something to consider here.

In that same chapter in Ecclesiastes nine (4 verses later) appears this curious term, "the realm of the dead". A term that occurs 39 times in the NIV translation. (as I recall) One of those being in Acts chapter two (vs 27) a quote from Psalm 16:8-11 (Messianic prophecy)

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Saint Steven said:

Brother Marty,
Something to consider here.

In that same chapter in Ecclesiastes nine (4 verses later) appears this curious term, "the realm of the dead". A term that occurs 39 times in the NIV translation. (as I recall) One of those being in Acts chapter two (vs 27) a quote from Psalm 16:8-11 (Messianic prophecy)

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

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It's symbolic language, used to describe the church. Dead mean's spiritually dead.

Pro 5:3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
Pro 5:4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Pro 5:6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.
Pro 5:7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.
Pro 5:8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:
Pro 5:9 Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel:

Pro 9:13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.
Pro 9:14 For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,
Pro 9:15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:
Pro 9:16 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
Pro 9:17 Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.
Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

martymonster said:

It's symbolic language, used to describe the church. Dead mean's spiritually dead.

Pro 5:3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
Pro 5:4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Pro 5:6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.
Pro 5:7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.
Pro 5:8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:
Pro 5:9 Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel:

Pro 9:13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.
Pro 9:14 For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,
Pro 9:15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:
Pro 9:16 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
Pro 9:17 Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.
Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

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How does that apply to the Ecclesiastes nine passage? Notice what else is mentioned there. (scripture from your post pasted below)
- the dead know nothing
- they have no more reward
- the memory of them is forgotten
- their love, hatred, and envy is perished
- no more portion of anything done under the sun

I think that final point is key. The whole thing is from an earthly perspective.
On earth, the dead know nothing; they have no more reward; the memory of them is forgotten; their love, hatred, and envy is perished; they have no more portion of anything done under the sun.

Certainly in the afterlife, none of this is true. IMHO

Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.