Is Romans 5:13 saying that men were not punished for their sin before the Law of Moses?

Is Romans 5:13 saying that men were not punished for their sin before the Law of Moses?

  • Yes (Please explain).

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Neither (Please explain).

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (Please explain).

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Is Romans 5:13 saying that men were not punished for their sin before the Law of Moses?

No. I believe Romans 5:13 is saying that sin was not imputed after the written record of the Law of Moses. Meaning, sin was not imputed to men according to the written Law, but according to Adam's transgression. This does not mean sin did not condemn men before the Law of Moses came.

Here is the verse:

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
(Romans 5:13).

Context:

Romans 5:19 says,
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Cross reference:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 says,
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

So the point here is "Justification" (i.e. Being saved by God's grace when we first come to Jesus Christ and believe that He died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf and we seek forgiveness with Him for salvation). This is the first step or stage of the salvation process that is without the deeds of the Law. It is being saved by God's grace and mercy, and by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. "Sanctification" (Living Holy By God's power) is the next step or stage in the salvation process.

Anyways, Paul's point here is that we are all condemned in Adam when we are born into this world, and we need a Savior who can wipe the slate clean by seeking forgiveness with Him, and believing the gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Paul was not saying that sin was not imputed in any way shape or form before the Law of Moses. Death reigned from Adam to Moses on the account of Adam's sin. We see many times in Scripture wicked men being punished for their sin before the Law of Moses was given.
 

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Side Note:

This thread was created so as to answer a question from another poster asked in another thread. But please feel free to join in on the discussion and or to contribute.

Thank you;
And may the Lord our God bless you greatly today.
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
...Meaning, sin was not imputed to men according to the written Law, but according to Adam's transgression. This does not mean sin did not condemn men before the Law of Moses came.

Here is the verse:

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
(Romans 5:13).
....

It depends also on what is meant with sin. I think sin really means that one rejects God, or is apart from God. Adam rejected God, and then disobeyed the rule God had given and that is why we are all now born to sin, in separation from God.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It depends also on what is meant with sin. I think sin really means that one rejects God, or is apart from God. Adam rejected God, and then disobeyed the rule God had given and that is why we are all now born to sin, in separation from God.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law"
(1 John 3:4).

Romans 2:14 says that the Gentiles were able to keep the Law without having the Law. This means the Moral Law. You turn on the news today, and us Gentiles are condemning murder, rape, theft, child abuse, etc. (Which is generally accepted as bad things). Now, this does not mean that man in general is perfect in regards to their moral compass. We do see an erosion of that moral compass in these last days and more of an acceptance of certain sinful things unlike before.

But the point here is that sin is the breaking of God's laws. That is what sin is.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is Romans 5:13 saying that men were not punished for their sin before the Law of Moses?

No. I believe Romans 5:13 is saying that sin was not imputed after the written record of the Law of Moses. Meaning, sin was not imputed to men according to the written Law, but according to Adam's transgression. This does not mean sin did not condemn men before the Law of Moses came.

Here is the verse:

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
(Romans 5:13).

Context:

Romans 5:19 says,
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Cross reference:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 says,
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

So the point here is "Justification" (i.e. Being saved by God's grace when we first come to Jesus Christ and believe that He died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf and we seek forgiveness with Him for salvation). This is the first step or stage of the salvation process that is without the deeds of the Law. It is being saved by God's grace and mercy, and by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. "Sanctification" (Living Holy By God's power) is the next step or stage in the salvation process.

Anyways, Paul's point here is that we are all condemned in Adam when we are born into this world, and we need a Savior who can wipe the slate clean by seeking forgiveness with Him, and believing the gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Paul was not saying that sin was not imputed in any way shape or form before the Law of Moses. Death reigned from Adam to Moses on the account of Adam's sin. We see many times in Scripture wicked men being punished for their sin before the Law of Moses was given.
All mankind is born into the world in Adam. Adam was punished for his sins by not being permitted access to the Tree of Life and by being cast out of the Garden of Eden.

Death is the punishment for the sin of Adam. The Law was added so that sin could be shown up for what it is:

"Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand." (Gal 3:19).

Therefore the transgressions already existed, before the law, but the law was added to show them up for what they were.

The payment for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Here is the verse:

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
(Romans 5:13).
The wages of sin is death. Death=Punishment For sin.
Continuing:
Romans 5:14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
"sin is not imputed when there is no law", and "those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"; means that there were not specific violations, as with a Law Code.
Sin in the likeness of Adam implies that he had a specific command, "Do not eat this fruit".
The transgressions of man from Adam to Moses were not so. They could not be charged with violating a commandment, such as Adultery. However, all died in Adam, because death came upon all by the sin of Adam. We can assume that all committed sin in some form without a command, especially since man's wickedness brought on the flood in short order. On the other hand, we cannot plead 'unfair' on their behalf. Why not? Our father of faith Abraham.
Genesis 26:5. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham proved that there was a righteousness that could be attained by faith without the Law, and by His obedience, fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law by that faith.
On this hangs the Law and the prophets: Obey My voice.
John 7:17. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
"Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me; 'I delight to do your Will'."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,158
1,805
✟794,647.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Is Romans 5:13 saying that men were not punished for their sin before the Law of Moses?

No. I believe Romans 5:13 is saying that sin was not imputed after the written record of the Law of Moses. Meaning, sin was not imputed to men according to the written Law, but according to Adam's transgression. This does not mean sin did not condemn men before the Law of Moses came.

Here is the verse:

"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."
(Romans 5:13).

Context:

Romans 5:19 says,
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Cross reference:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 says,
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

So the point here is "Justification" (i.e. Being saved by God's grace when we first come to Jesus Christ and believe that He died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf and we seek forgiveness with Him for salvation). This is the first step or stage of the salvation process that is without the deeds of the Law. It is being saved by God's grace and mercy, and by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. "Sanctification" (Living Holy By God's power) is the next step or stage in the salvation process.

Anyways, Paul's point here is that we are all condemned in Adam when we are born into this world, and we need a Savior who can wipe the slate clean by seeking forgiveness with Him, and believing the gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Paul was not saying that sin was not imputed in any way shape or form before the Law of Moses. Death reigned from Adam to Moses on the account of Adam's sin. We see many times in Scripture wicked men being punished for their sin before the Law of Moses was given.
I think you are trying to use the wrong scripture here. This is a huge topic needing many words to explain, but I will try. God determines what sin is. Eve lusted after the fruit, Eve was not helping Adam at the time like she was suppose to be doing, Eve was selfish, Eve coveted, Eve was not Loving God with all she had, and Eve did not seek council, yet the only “sin” she did was eating the fruit.

There is a “Law” written on the hearts of all mature adults (a conscience that is the result of having knowledge of good and evil). All mature adults for at least a while are burdened in their conscience from doing stuff that has hurt others in their past. People have tried many things to relieve this burden with no long-term recovery except with accepting God’s forgiveness.

You seem to be exchanging “imputed sin” with “punishing sin” which is not the same thing.

Ro. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way, death came to all people, because all sinned

Paul did not say “because Adam sinned”, but says “because all sinned”.

Before Christ went to the cross God/Christ forgave some sins, yet the person could not be fairly/justly punished (disciplined) for those sins, so how are we disciplined after the cross?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The wages of sin is death. Death=Punishment For sin.
Continuing:
Romans 5:14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
"sin is not imputed when there is no law", and "those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"; means that there were not specific violations, as with a Law Code.
Sin in the likeness of Adam implies that he had a specific command, "Do not eat this fruit".
The transgressions of man from Adam to Moses were not so. They could not be charged with violating a commandment, such as Adultery. However, all died in Adam, because death came upon all by the sin of Adam. We can assume that all committed sin in some form without a command, especially since man's wickedness brought on the flood in short order. On the other hand, we cannot plead 'unfair' on their behalf. Why not? Our father of faith Abraham.
Genesis 26:5. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham proved that there was a righteousness that could be attained by faith without the Law, and by His obedience, fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law by that faith.
On this hangs the Law and the prophets: Obey My voice.
John 7:17. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
"Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me; 'I delight to do your Will'."
This is true. Death is the punishment for Adam's sin and so death passed to all men.

Adam was the first dead man ever to have lived.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Adam was the first dead man ever to have lived.
Great point!
2 Corinthians 5:14.
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.
We go from dead men walking, to walking in the Spirit of Life.
John 5:25. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
People are strange when you are a stranger.
Strange to be alive among the dead in the land of the living.
have a blessed weekend, in Spirit and Life.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
  • Friendly
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Adam was punished for his sins by not being permitted access to the Tree of Life and by being cast out of the Garden of Eden.

I believe that Adam was condemned for breaking God's command that told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law. So sin entered the world via by Adam's transgression (and not Eve). Adam was not condemned for not eating of the Tree of Life (Although I am sure God wanted him to eat of it when he was not fallen). God actually prevented Adam from eating it after Adam fell into sin because if Adam ate of the Tree of Life in his fallen sinful state, he would have lived forever in a condemned sinful state. But Adam fell into sin by eating of the wrong tree. God never said Adam failed to eat of the Tree of Life and that was his sin. Adam fell into sin by eating of the wrong tree.

You said:
All mankind is born into the world in Adam.

Death is the punishment for the sin of Adam. The Law was added so that sin could be shown up for what it is:

"Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand." (Gal 3:19).

Therefore the transgressions already existed, before the law, but the law was added to show them up for what they were.

The payment for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23).

No argument here, brother. I agree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think you are trying to use the wrong scripture here.

Well, in post #2, I pointed out how this thread was a response to a question asked by another poster. They were the one who brought up the verse and the question.

You said:
This is a huge topic needing many words to explain, but I will try. God determines what sin is. Eve lusted after the fruit, Eve was not helping Adam at the time like she was suppose to be doing, Eve was selfish, Eve coveted, Eve was not Loving God with all she had, and Eve did not seek council, yet the only “sin” she did was eating the fruit.

There is a “Law” written on the hearts of all mature adults (a conscience that is the result of having knowledge of good and evil). All mature adults for at least a while are burdened in their conscience from doing stuff that has hurt others in their past. People have tried many things to relieve this burden with no long-term recovery except with accepting God’s forgiveness.

You seem to be exchanging “imputed sin” with “punishing sin” which is not the same thing.

Ro. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way, death came to all people, because all sinned

Paul did not say “because Adam sinned”, but says “because all sinned”.

Before Christ went to the cross God/Christ forgave some sins, yet the person could not be fairly/justly punished (disciplined) for those sins, so how are we disciplined after the cross?

Impute:
(verb):

Definition of Impute:

"to lay the responsibility or blame for (something) often falsely or unjustly"

Source:
Definition of IMPUTE
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The wages of sin is death. Death=Punishment For sin.
Continuing:
Romans 5:14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
"sin is not imputed when there is no law", and "those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam"; means that there were not specific violations, as with a Law Code.

Right, that is what I was already saying, brother. I said I believe Romans 5:13 is saying that sin was not imputed after the written record of the Law of Moses.

You said:
Sin in the likeness of Adam implies that he had a specific command, "Do not eat this fruit".
The transgressions of man from Adam to Moses were not so. They could not be charged with violating a commandment, such as Adultery. However, all died in Adam, because death came upon all by the sin of Adam.

It is true that men died by Adam's sin by just being born into this world. But it was not just Adam's sin that condemned them alone, but they could also be condemned by their sins, as well.

If all men were punished or faced death as a result only of Adam's sin alone, then why did God destroy a whole world for its wickedness with a global flood? Why was Sodom & Gomorrah destroyed? Adam's sin? No. It was because these two cities were excessively wicked.

"But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." (Genesis 13:13).

1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law. They were wicked and sinners exceedingly before the Lord. This means that they were considered condemned and sinners by their breaking God's laws and not just by Adam's transgression alone.

2 Peter 2:5-6 talks about how they are an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter.

3 "But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her."
(Genesis 20:3-6).

If sin was only imputed by Adam's transgression, then this man could not have possibly sinned against God and there would have been no need for God to prevent this man from sinning against Him.

Overall, what Romans 5 is just saying that Adam is our Federal Head and when we are born into this world, we are all dead spiritually by being a part of his family. We need to be born again spiritually by Jesus and abide in the Second Adam in order to have new life.

Romans 5:13 is simply saying that from Adam to Moses, sin was not imputed by the written code, but it was imputed after the likeness of Adam's transgression. Adam disobeyed God's direct command without a written code or written Law. He was told directly by God not to eat of the tree. We have no record that Eve was told this by God. So this may suggest that she had to take it by faith in what Adam said in relation to God's command. Men had to believe the communicated spoken messengers and not a written code or written Law that was more clearer.

We can assume that all committed sin in some form without a command, especially since man's wickedness brought on the flood in short order. On the other hand, we cannot plead 'unfair' on their behalf. Why not? Our father of faith Abraham.
Genesis 26:5. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham proved that there was a righteousness that could be attained by faith without the Law, and by His obedience, fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law by that faith.

No. Abraham not only had belief (without the works of the Law) first (Which was accounted to him as righteousness), but he also was able to perform, too (i.e. Later literally obey His commands, laws, etc.). Abraham did not keep God's commands just by having a belief alone.

You said:
On this hangs the Law and the prophets: Obey My voice.
John 7:17. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
"Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me; 'I delight to do your Will'."

Faith can involve obedience sometimes. Sometimes faith starts by just believing. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). For the gospel message of our salvation is simply believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen 3 days later on our behalf for salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). But faith also expresses itself later in actions or works of faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But yes. I love John 7:17, and Hebrews 10:7 (Which would also include Psalms 40:7-8). Thank you for sharing such wonderful verses today, brother.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,158
1,805
✟794,647.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well, in post #2, I pointed out how this thread was a response to a question asked by another poster. They were the one who brought up the verse and the question.



Impute:
(verb):

Definition of Impute:

"to lay the responsibility or blame for (something) often falsely or unjustly"

Source:
Definition of IMPUTE
Which can lead to being disciplined or punishment, but is not the same as punishment.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe that Adam was condemned for breaking God's command that told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law. So sin entered the world via by Adam's transgression (and not Eve). Adam was not condemned for not eating of the Tree of Life (Although I am sure God wanted him to eat of it when he was not fallen). God actually prevented Adam from eating it after Adam fell into sin because if Adam ate of the Tree of Life in his fallen sinful state, he would have lived forever in a condemned sinful state. But Adam fell into sin by eating of the wrong tree. God never said Adam failed to eat of the Tree of Life and that was his sin. Adam fell into sin by eating of the wrong tree.

No argument here, brother. I agree.

I liked you post because I agree with it - I think you misunderstood my post. I said Adam was punished BY not being permitted to eat from the Tree of Life and being banished from the Garden of Eden.

Before Adam disobeyed the command, he was able to eat of the Tree of Life. Once he sinned, he was prevented from eating of the Tree of Life, so I said Adam was "punished" for his sin by that - but actually there is a lot more to it:

1. it was only God fulfilling His Word - God had told Adam that in the day he eats of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he will die - so being punished BY not being able to eat from the Tree of Life is the fulfillment of God's Word in the matter.

2. Jesus is called the Word of God in Whom was Life, and the Life was the Light of men (John 1:4). He is also called "the bread of Life" (John 6:33). He created the world and all things in it (John 1:1-3). His words are Spirit and Life (John 6:63).

Unbelief in the Word of God therefore = death. Adam disobeyed because like Eve, he believed the lie which had directly opposed God's Word, and falsely accused God of lying (Gen 3:4-5).

So being prevented from eating from the tree of life was the greatest part of Adam's punishment. "Not being able to eat of the tree of Life" = death came to all men through Adam.
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law"
(1 John 3:4).
...
But the point here is that sin is the breaking of God's laws. That is what sin is.

Because Bible says “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law”, I think it is so that before one transgresseth also the law, he has rejected God, which is the sin. And when one rejects God, transgression of the law follows and it is also then called sin, because sin is what sinner does. So, sorry, in this case I keep the idea that sin is to reject God. One reason why I think so is also that:

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

Righteous lives, because he is loyal (faithful) to God, he doesn’t reject God. It is possible that righteous makes mistakes, even brakes the law, but if he doesn’t reject God, he has no sin.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums