Are You of Israel?

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Randy777 said:
Yes we are not free to sin

You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Randy777 · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

It is also written
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

Its salvation by the forgiveness of sins. Not by works of the law.

The forgiveness of sins is by faith in Jesus. -Purchased by His blood.
Those who believe in Him.

The good news being proclaimed is not the law of Moses. But Christ crucified.
Clearly what Jesus is enforcing is what He proclaimed. "You know the commands" as well as keeping oneself from sexual immorality. He is not enforcing keeping the sabbath, observing Passover, physical circumcision etc. etc.

And like the Lord Paul noted the differences and He saw all the law as law and considered the law in his judgments such as , "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain"

We use the NT as a guide as which commandments are still relative in regard to sin.

Our hearts are purified by faith.

Paul summed up the importance "Faith expressing itself through love"

Blade · Apr 29, 2020

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Before Christ.. when God lead the out.. said if anyone wants to join you.. they had to do somethings... said treat them as if they were born of you. And Him showing me this tiny wonderful tree that had TONS of branches .. in a "U" shape. See I wanted to hear i.. and I know .. but wanted to hear Him say He loved me just as much as some Jewish person. Was watching videos of Jewish people finding Christ.. oh made me cry so much but also started to really bother me when they talked about "Christians" that had THEIR God.

Their God? Then what do I have? So from my heart I really wanted to hear He loved me just as much. That same night.. He never said that..what He did was show show me this tiny brown dark brown oh it was SO beautiful. He said "show me a branch that was not originally of the vine. I am the vine you are the branches". HAHA is this not GOD! I wanted waited to hear "I love you just as much" look how He said it...

What I never understood and am only guessing now is.. who is "originally" of the vine? I had NO CLUE waht that meant. Must me Israel.. He even gave me His word to back up what He said/showed me.

ChetSinger · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
...Before you try to pick the speck from your brothers eye; why don't you tell us which ones you pick and choose?

I am not Jewish, or if so only barely. So the vast majority of my ancestors were never under the law of Moses.

Does the New Testament say that when I became a Christian I must now begin to follow that law? Let's see:

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. - Galatians 2

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. - Galatians 3

Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. - Galatians 5

So someone who accepts circumcision is severed from Christ?

In a nutshell, I'm not going to let you put a burden on my back that Paul says I don't have to carry.

Honestly, I've attended a variety of churches over the years and have met numerous believers from many denominations. I've never heard a single one demand that Christians follow the law of Moses. Or be circumcised, as you required in another of your threads. Where does anyone worship that teaches this?

HARK! · Apr 30, 2020

ChetSinger said:
I am not Jewish, or if so only barely. So the vast majority of my ancestors were never under the law of Moses.

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you/ all are one in Christ Jesus.

ChetSinger said:
Does the New Testament say that when I became a Christian I must now begin to follow that law? Let's see:

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

ChetSinger said:
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. - Galatians 2

The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Paul is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 6 times in Galatians, and maybe 2 times in Romans.
Galatians 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10 Romans 3:27, 9:32

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
==========================================================

Here is what Paul says in Galatians 2 concerning works of law:

(CLV) Ga 2:16
having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall not flesh at all be justified.

But here is what Paul said in Romans 2 concerning law:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Now either Paul can't keep his story straight; or works of law is different than law.

==========================================================

What is Paul referring to in Galatians 3:10?

Galatians 3

10 For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them.

Deuteronomy 27

15 Cursed be the man who makes a carving or a molten image, an abhorrence to Yahweh, the work of an artificer's hands, and places it in concealment. Then all the people will respond and say:Amen!" 16 Cursed be the one dishonoring his father or his mother. Then all the people shall say:Amen! 17 Cursed be the one moving the boundary marker of his associate. Then all the people will say:Amen! 18 Cursed be the one causing the blind to err on the road. Then all the people will say:Amen! 19 Cursed be the one turning aside the judgment of the sojourner, the orphan or the widow. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 20 Cursed be the one lying with the wife of his father, for he exposes his father's hem. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 21 Cursed be the one lying with any beast. Then all the people will say:Amen! 22 Cursed be the one lying with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 23 Cursed be the one lying with his sister-in-law. Then all the people will say:Amen! 24 Cursed be the one smiting his associate in concealment. Then all the people will say:Amen! 25 Cursed be the one taking a bribe to smite a soul of innocent blood. Then all the people will say:Amen! 26 Cursed be the one who is not performing all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say:Amen!

Certainly he is not saying that Yahshua died so that we are free to take part in all of the wickedness.

ChetSinger said:
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. - Galatians 3

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

ChetSinger said:
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. - Galatians 5

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

Paul circumcises Timothy shortly after the Jerusalem Council:

(CLV) Ac 16:3
This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him because of the Jews who are in those places, for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

ChetSinger said:
So someone who accepts circumcision is severed from Christ?

Covered in the response above.

ChetSinger said:
In a nutshell, I'm not going to let you put a burden on my back that Paul says I don't have to carry.

That quote comes from the Jerusalem Council.

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.

Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:

(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

ChetSinger said:
Honestly, I've attended a variety of churches over the years and have met numerous believers from many denominations. I've never heard a single one demand that Christians follow the law of Moses. Or be circumcised, as you required in another of your threads. Where does anyone worship that teaches this?

The law of Moses is Yahshua's law. It was given to Moses by YHWH. Many orthodox denominations teach obedience to YHWH's law.

I fellowship with those who call themselves Messianics.[/quote]

Davy · Apr 30, 2020

visionary said:
Agree, but in believing in Him, you are also to declare He is King of the Jews, Lord of the Sabbath, Lord of Lords, God in the flesh, and King of Israel. You see if all you believe is that He died to take the penalty of sin from you, you are missing out on the whole picture of who Yeshua is. You can not define sin without the Law of God [The Ten Commandments].
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus is NOT 'king of the Jews'. That was a label that Pilate had placed at Jesus' crucifixion in order to mock the blind Pharisees. Even they wanted that sign torn down.

Jesus Christ is The King of Israel.

The label 'Jew' only applied to those of the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. It did not apply to the ten northern tribe kingdom. That per the Jewish historian Josephus...

Nehemiah's speech to the remnant from the house of Judah returning to Jerusalem from Babylon:

"7. [An. 461.] Now when he was come to Babylon, and had taken with him many of his countreymen, who voluntarily followed him, he came to Jerusalem in the twenty fifth year of the reign of Xerxes. And when he had shewn the epistles to God, (16) he gave them to Adeus, and to the other governours. He also called together all the people to Jerusalem; and stood in the midst of the temple, and made the following speech to them. “You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in mind continually; and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the King to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. I desire you therefore, who well know the ill will our neighbouring nations bear to us, and that when once they once are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us, and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God; as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day; but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it.” When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities; as every ones ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work. That is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon; which is taken from the tribe of Judah,. which came first to these places, and thence both they and the countrey gained that appellation."
(Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book XI, Chapter 5:7 - Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI)

To say Jesus is 'king of the Jews' is to leave out the majority of the tribes of Israel. If you don't know why that is, then I suggest you read your Bible history starting at 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, and also note just who it was that returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity per Ezra 2.

Davy · May 1, 2020

HARK! said:
Can you believe in him without knowing him?

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that I know him, and is not keeping his precepts, is a liar; and the truth of The God, is not in this one.

The 'believer' on Him KNOWS Him, even as Jesus proved that upon His cross when the malefactor crucified with Him that believed was told he would be with Jesus in Paradise that day (Luke 23:43).

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

Those who know Him also understand what Apostle Paul said above, and they don't try to insert the law in between the believer and Jesus Christ like the false Jews do.

Davy · May 1, 2020

nolidad said:
But we also know that until Jesus was revealed as Messiah, no one had the knowledge of Jesus as Messiah! They knew a Messiah was coming, but I do agree righteousness has always been imputed by the revelation of god!

I really wish you wouldn't say such things.

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am."
KJV

Jesus was one of the 'three men' that appeared at Abraham's tent door in Genesis 18, and stood with Abraham talking about the destruction in Sodom and Gomorrah. The other two men were the two angels sent to Lot in Genesis 19.

From Enoch, the 7th from the man Adam, quoted by Jude:

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV

Jesus was the Melchizedek (King of Righteousness) who met Abraham and blessed him, and offered Abraham 'bread and wine' (sacraments of Communion). Hebrews 7 verifies that was Jesus in the Old Testament times.

Therefore, even though we don't find the name 'Jesus' (Yashua) applied to our Lord in Old Testament times, He was personally involved with the chosen Patriarchs in their times. And since Apostle Paul emphatically teaches how those of Faith on the Promise like Abraham, have become the children of Abraham, which means the Promise by Faith was always... first, even back in Abraham's day.

Some can try to make whole treatises against the idea that Abraham understood The Gospel of Jesus Christ to their own demise, because the actual Scripture evidence is that Abraham did understand and for that reason rejoiced to 'see' (prophetically) Christ's day, which is what Jesus showed in that above John 8 Scripture. Enoch also showed Christ's day fulfilled in final per Jude 1.

Mr. M · May 1, 2020

HARK! said:
Paul circumcises Timothy shortly after the Jerusalem Council:

(CLV) Ac 16:3
This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him because of the Jews who are in those places, for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks.

Galatians 2:3. Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
Titus>Greek>not circumcised.
Timothy>circumcised.> Why? The narrative tells you. His father was Greek, but his mother and grandmother were Jews. Jewish Law, reckoned from the mother.
Acts 15:10. Peter's opposition. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Peter received the vision from the Lord declaring Greeks clean. He makes no demands for circumcising Greeks. He opposed the Pharisees, who were among the believers, and had sent out other certain men to order circumcision for the Greeks. They had no such authority for the Ecclesia. And they failed in their attempt. Peter James and John were the pillars of the church at Jerusalem, not the Pharisees.
Church history. Old news. Move on.

visionary · May 1, 2020

Davy said:
Jesus is NOT 'king of the Jews'. That was a label that Pilate had placed at Jesus' crucifixion in order to mock the blind Pharisees. Even they wanted that sign torn down.

Jesus Christ is The King of Israel.

The label 'Jew' only applied to those of the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. It did not apply to the ten northern tribe kingdom. That per the Jewish historian Josephus...

Nehemiah's speech to the remnant from the house of Judah returning to Jerusalem from Babylon:

"7. [An. 461.] Now when he was come to Babylon, and had taken with him many of his countreymen, who voluntarily followed him, he came to Jerusalem in the twenty fifth year of the reign of Xerxes. And when he had shewn the epistles to God, (16) he gave them to Adeus, and to the other governours. He also called together all the people to Jerusalem; and stood in the midst of the temple, and made the following speech to them. “You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in mind continually; and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the King to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. I desire you therefore, who well know the ill will our neighbouring nations bear to us, and that when once they once are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us, and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God; as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day; but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it.” When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities; as every ones ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work. That is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon; which is taken from the tribe of Judah,. which came first to these places, and thence both they and the countrey gained that appellation."
(Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book XI, Chapter 5:7 - Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI)

To say Jesus is 'king of the Jews' is to leave out the majority of the tribes of Israel. If you don't know why that is, then I suggest you read your Bible history starting at 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, and also note just who it was that returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity per Ezra 2.

"Jew" was commonly used to identify this nation of people. The King of the Jews must Himself be Jewish (Deut. 17:15). His aunt Elizabeth was Jewish (a descendant of Aaron, Moses' brother) and His uncle Zacharia was a Jewish priest (Luke 1:5, 36). As Yeshua neared Jerusalem the final time, the crowd with Him “thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once” (Luke 19:11). In other words, they believed Yeshua was the King of the Jews, and they were ready to help Him set up the earthly kingdom. It all started at His birth.

Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Yeshua never argued that point even before those who would kill Him for it.

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

expos4ever · May 1, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

Is this supposed to be an argument that we should follow the Law of Moses? If so, it is not convincing. How do we know that "doing the will of the Father" necessarily entails following the Law of Moses? And how do we know that "lawlessness" refers specifically to the Law of Moses?

Davy · May 1, 2020

visionary said:
"Jew" was commonly used to identify this nation of people. The King of the Jews must Himself be Jewish (Deut. 17:15). His aunt Elizabeth was Jewish (a descendant of Aaron, Moses' brother) and His uncle Zacharia was a Jewish priest (Luke 1:5, 36). As Yeshua neared Jerusalem the final time, the crowd with Him “thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once” (Luke 19:11). In other words, they believed Yeshua was the King of the Jews, and they were ready to help Him set up the earthly kingdom. It all started at His birth.

Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Yeshua never argued that point even before those who would kill Him for it.

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing against God's written Word, because the label 'king of the Jews' Pilate put on a sign over Jesus' cross was to mock Him, and to mock the Jews who had Him murdered.

Matt 27:27-30
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto Him the whole band of soldiers.
28 And they stripped Him, and put on Him a scarlet robe.
29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon His head, and a reed in His right hand: and they bowed the knee before Him, and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30 And they spit upon Him, and took the reed, and smote Him on the head.
KJV

Matt 27:35-37
35 And they crucified Him, and parted His garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, 'They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.'
36 And sitting down they watched Him there;
37 And set up over His head His accusation written, 'THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.'
KJV

It was the MOCKERS who gave Jesus that title of 'king of the Jews', which were the Roman soldiers who did those things to my Lord Jesus after Pilate had condemned Him to be crucified.

Jesus is NOT king of the Jews. He is King of ALL Israel.

expos4ever · May 1, 2020

As usual, people bring out statements by Jesus that the Law will continue until "heaven and earth pass".

What they very conveniently do not tell you - and some do this disingenuously since they know otherwise - is that the Bible, as well as other Jewish literature of the time, often uses such "end of the world" imagery as a metaphor to denote significant socio-political change.

Davy · May 1, 2020

expos4ever said:
As usual, people bring out statements by Jesus that the Law will continue until "heaven and earth pass".

What they very conveniently do not tell you - and some do this disingenuously since they know otherwise - is that the Bible, as well as other Jewish literature of the time, often uses such "end of the world" imagery as a metaphor to denote significant socio-political change.

"Jewish literature", that's funny also.

Davy · May 1, 2020

expos4ever said:
Is this supposed to be an argument that we should follow the Law of Moses? If so, it is not convincing. How do we know that "doing the will of the Father" necessarily entails following the Law of Moses? And how do we know that "lawlessness" refers specifically to the Law of Moses?

Read 1 Timothy 1.

expos4ever · May 1, 2020

Davy said:
"Jewish literature", that's funny also.

Not sure what your point is. But lest there be any misunderstanding, here is an example of what I have been talking about - the use of "end of the world" style imagery as a metaphor for socio-political change in the here and now. This comes from "The Testament of Moses":

Then shall the Heavenly One arise from the seat of His kingdom, and come forth from His holy habitation, with wrath and indignation for His children's sake. And the earth shall tremble and quake to its utmost borders; and the lofty mountains shall be humbled and shaken, and the valleys shall sink. The sun shall give no light, and shall turn into darkness; the horns of the moon shall be broken, and she shall be turned into blood, and the circle of the stars shall be confounded. The sea shall retreat to the abyss, the springs of water shall fail, and the rivers shall be dried up; because the Most High, the Eternal, the only God, shall arise and come manifestly to chastise the nations and to destroy their idols. Then shalt thou be happy, O Israel, and shalt mount on the necks and wings of the eagle, and thy days shall be fulfilled. And God shall exalt thee that thou shalt cleave to the starry heaven, over the place of their habitation.

expos4ever · May 1, 2020

Davy said:
Read 1 Timothy 1.

Again, not sure what your point is, but I will guess that you believe that 1 Timothy 1 supports continued obedience to the Law. I do not see how. Consider this part (literal translation):

and we have known that the law [is] good, if any one may use it lawfully;

This is not surprising - we know that Paul believes the Law is good. But that is not the same thing as saying it is still in force.

nolidad · May 1, 2020

Davy said:
I really wish you wouldn't say such things.

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am."
KJV

Jesus was one of the 'three men' that appeared at Abraham's tent door in Genesis 18, and stood with Abraham talking about the destruction in Sodom and Gomorrah. The other two men were the two angels sent to Lot in Genesis 19.

From Enoch, the 7th from the man Adam, quoted by Jude:

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV

Jesus was the Melchizedek (King of Righteousness) who met Abraham and blessed him, and offered Abraham 'bread and wine' (sacraments of Communion). Hebrews 7 verifies that was Jesus in the Old Testament times.

Therefore, even though we don't find the name 'Jesus' (Yashua) applied to our Lord in Old Testament times, He was personally involved with the chosen Patriarchs in their times. And since Apostle Paul emphatically teaches how those of Faith on the Promise like Abraham, have become the children of Abraham, which means the Promise by Faith was always... first, even back in Abraham's day.

Some can try to make whole treatises against the idea that Abraham understood The Gospel of Jesus Christ to their own demise, because the actual Scripture evidence is that Abraham did understand and for that reason rejoiced to 'see' (prophetically) Christ's day, which is what Jesus showed in that above John 8 Scripture. Enoch also showed Christ's day fulfilled in final per Jude 1.

Well you totally misunderstood what I was saying in my post. Of course there were pre-incarnate "theophanies" of Jesus, but He was not known as jesus! He was called Elohim, Jehovah and THE angel of the Lord. But Messiah was not known by His name Jesus until He was born!

HARK! · May 1, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Galatians 2:3. Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
Titus>Greek>not circumcised.
Timothy>circumcised.> Why? The narrative tells you. His father was Greek, but his mother and grandmother were Jews. Jewish Law, reckoned from the mother.
Acts 15:10. Peter's opposition. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Peter received the vision from the Lord declaring Greeks clean. He makes no demands for circumcising Greeks. He opposed the Pharisees, who were among the believers, and had sent out other certain men to order circumcision for the Greeks. They had no such authority for the Ecclesia. And they failed in their attempt. Peter James and John were the pillars of the church at Jerusalem, not the Pharisees.
Church history. Old news. Move on.

You should reread Act 15. There are two sides to this argument. One side said that you need to be circumcised for salvation. The other side said that you need to be circumcised to keep the law. You can't come back, 2000 years after the debate, and add your own argument. James sided with those who explain that you must be circumcised to keep the law, not for salvation. This was settled at the Council of Jerusalem. The yoke you speak of, wasn't placed on Abraham. Faith came first; then came the acts of faith. The argument that lost was putting the cart before the horse.

Now let's get back on topic.

HARK! · May 1, 2020

expos4ever said:
Is this supposed to be an argument that we should follow the Law of Moses? If so, it is not convincing. How do we know that "doing the will of the Father" necessarily entails following the Law of Moses? And how do we know that "lawlessness" refers specifically to the Law of Moses?

The Father gave the law to Moses. The law of Moses is the law of YHWH. YHWH is fairly clear about his will.

Are You of Israel?

Are you of Israel?

Yes

No

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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