Lord's Supper Question

ratchet30

Wanderer In A Strange Land
Apr 26, 2011
254
8
Pennsylvania
✟10,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
According to the old covenant the consumption of human flesh and blood was prohibited. How can Lutherans say that Jesus' literal body and blood are in the elements? There are many passages in the bible that are meant to be symbolic such as Jesus is the door or chief cornerstone, etc.
 

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We do not believe we are drinking real blood, we do believe the Jesus is really present in the Eucharist - but we do not believe it turns into actual flesh or blood. "Jesus is present in, with, and under" the elements in a mystical manner. This is consistent with belief from the start of the Faith. It was a common claim against Christians that they were cannibals, the Pagan populace did not understand the practice. Jesus said "this is my body....this is my blood" he did not say "this is a symbol of my body and blood" or "I am spiritually in this bread and wine". The other passages you mentioned are easily explained based on context or Jewish Tradition, but the Eucharist is not.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: KagomeShuko
Upvote 0

Pisteuo00

Member
Apr 29, 2020
17
15
Stockholm
✟16,597.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
A common explanation that some use (mostly Roman Catholics, but I assume that scholastically minded Lutherans may perhaps use a modified form of it) is the accident and substance theory.
The theory states that the accidents (external, visible qualities) of the bread and wine remain, but the substance (internal, invisible essence) is replaced with the person of Jesus Christ, who becomes the substance or person who is under the form and matter of the bread and wine, both the form and the matter remains, but the substance is the person Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Pisteuo00

Member
Apr 29, 2020
17
15
Stockholm
✟16,597.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
If I remember correctlly, the Lutheran view is not that the substance of the bread and wine is replaced, the substance is and becomes shared, so that there are two substances that are under the bread and wine, the bread and wine, and the person Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

ratchet30

Wanderer In A Strange Land
Apr 26, 2011
254
8
Pennsylvania
✟10,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
We do not believe we are drinking real blood, we do believe the Jesus is really present in the Eucharist - but we do not believe it turns into actual flesh or blood. "Jesus is present in, with, and under" the elements in a mystical manner. This is consistent with belief from the start of the Faith. It was a common claim against Christians that they were cannibals, the Pagan populace did not understand the practice. Jesus said "this is my body....this is my blood" he did not say "this is a symbol of my body and blood" or "I am spiritually in this bread and wine". The other passages you mentioned are easily explained based on context or Jewish Tradition, but the Eucharist is not.

Ok but I really thought it was His real blood and body. Isn't that what the small catechism says?
I understand we can't observe His body and blood in the supper. But a passage Lutherans use has Jesus saying my flesh I real food and my blood is real drink, something like that
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,381
5,253
✟817,020.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Ok but I really thought it was His real blood and body. Isn't that what the small catechism says?
I understand we can't observe His body and blood in the supper. But a passage Lutherans use has Jesus saying my flesh I real food and my blood is real drink, something like that
Yes, it is. We do it because Christ commands us to do so in very plain language, and it is reiterated often in the NT and by the ECFs who were taught by the Apostles.

The Old Testament tells us "eye for an eye"; Christ teaches us to turn the other cheek. Under the new covenant, a lot has changed; and Christ came to change it with the new covenant.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
1,928
1,714
38
London
Visit site
✟394,138.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
The Eucharist is a mystery. It's not something we do for God, but something God in His grace, kindness and love does for us, where He truly gives us His body and blood for our comfort. You can simply think of it as the Gospel, only in a tangible form.

So, it's ordinary bread and ordinary wine, but by the power of God's Word it's truly Christ's body and blood. We don't speculate on how, but trust in God's command and promise that it does and is exactly what Jesus says it is. Namely, His body for us, and His blood, the new testament (or covenant), which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. In other words, this meal is no ordinary meal. It's supernaturally tied to the cross. In the Lutheran tradition, we call this the Sacramental Union.

The idea that Christ is speaking symbolically does not hold up, for the grammar doesn't allow for it to be symbolism. This was recognised as a great problem to even to the Radical Reformers (Zwingli in particular) who did believe it was symbolic. Basically the sentence: "This is my body" cannot be translated as "This symbolises my body". For this reason, no Bible translation translates it like this. If anyone is interested, I'm happy to elaborate on this.

I used to hold to Memorialism myself, but what made me realise the Eucharist is much more is this:

1. Reflect on what the Bible has to say about sacrificial eating, and consider the trees in Eden, the Passover lamb, and the temple offerings. God often works through physical means.

2. Consider who instituted the Eucharist. It's not a rite made up by the Church, but it was instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ as His last will or testament before He was crucified.

3. Consider when it was instituted: On the Passover, which is fulfilled in Christ, who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. So in this meal, we are granted to eat the true Passover Lamb. This is highly significant and a real joy, comfort and privilege! It's not a mere symbol of, but truly is the communion of (or participation in) the body and blood of Christ (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).

4. Consider how central it has been to the Church ever since the beginning. Acts 2 reads: "They continued to hold firmly to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of the bread, and to the prayers." Here we have God's Word and by this loving God, gathering and loving our neighbour, the Eucharist and prayer all listed as central to the Christian faith. This is clearly echoed by the early Church also.

5. Finally, consider the purpose of the Eucharist, starting with that the Bible does not explain it as something we do for God in order to somehow merit His grace. It's not our work but it's God's gift to us.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ok but I really thought it was His real blood and body. Isn't that what the small catechism says?
I understand we can't observe His body and blood in the supper. But a passage Lutherans use has Jesus saying my flesh I real food and my blood is real drink, something like that
It is but it is not at the same time....as I said, it is a mystery. So, in view, and scientifically, it is not flesh and blood, but mystically it is.
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,381
5,253
✟817,020.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
It is but it is not at the same time....as I said, it is a mystery. So, in view, and scientifically, it is not flesh and blood, but mystically it is.
No, it is at the same time. As our Catechism says:
As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household
What is the Sacrament of the Altar?

It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under the bread and wine, instituted by Christ Himself for us Christians to eat and to drink.

Where is this written?
The holy Evangelists Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul write:Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: “Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.”

In the same way also He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

The Nature of the Sacrament of the Altar

What is the benefit of this eating and drinking?
These words, “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins,” show us that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

The Benefit of the Sacrament of the Altar

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?
Certainly not just eating and drinking do these things, but the words written here: “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.” These words, along with the bodily eating and drinking, are the main thing in the Sacrament. Whoever believes these words has exactly what they say: “forgiveness of sins.”

The Power of the Sacrament of the Altar

Who receives this sacrament worthily?
Fasting and bodily preparation are certainly fine outward training. But that person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.”

But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words “for you” require all hearts to believe.​
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No, it is at the same time. As our Catechism says:......
Thank you for the correction, as I said though - it is a mystery. We don't try and scientifically analyze it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,215.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
According to the old covenant the consumption of human flesh and blood was prohibited. How can Lutherans say that Jesus' literal body and blood are in the elements? There are many passages in the bible that are meant to be symbolic such as Jesus is the door or chief cornerstone, etc.

Under the old covenant human sacrifice is regarded as an abomination. And yet Christ is the Paschal Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, whose sacrifice is our salvation.

We, of course, readily understand that Jesus' sacrifice isn't the same thing as what is being condemned as human sacrifice in the Old Testament.

Likewise, we should readily understand that the receiving of Christ's true flesh and blood in, with, and under the bread and the wine isn't the same thing as the ritualistic consumption of blood which is condemned in the Old Testament.

That is why the Lutheran Confessions explicitly reject the "Carpernaitic" view of the Eucharist.

"The other eating of the body of Christ is oral or sacramental, when the true, essential body and blood of Christ are also orally received and partaken of in the Holy Supper, by all who eat and drink the consecrated bread and wine in the Supper-by the believing as a certain pledge and assurance that their sins are surely forgiven them, and Christ dwells and is efficacious in them, but by the unbelieving for their judgment and condemnation, as the words of the institution by Christ expressly declare, when at the table and during the Supper He offers His disciples natural bread and natural wine, which He calls His true body and true blood, at the same time saying: Eat and drink. For in view of the circumstances this command evidently cannot be understood otherwise than of oral eating and drinking, however, not in a gross, carnal, Capernaitic, but in a supernatural, incomprehensible way; to which afterwards the other command adds still another and spiritual eating, when the Lord Christ says further: This do in remembrance of Me, where He requires faith [which is the spiritual partaking of Christ's body)." - The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, Article VII, 63-65

The word "Capernaitic" refers to the episode at Capernaum recorded in John ch. 6 where many abandoned Him after He said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood; for it was a "hard saying". We are not ripping a hunk of flesh from Christ's body, or draining blood from His veins in some kind of grotesque display of vile cannibalism. We are, instead, receiving the whole Person of Jesus Christ; thus it is His true body and true blood.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roymond
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ok but I really thought it was His real blood and body. Isn't that what the small catechism says?
I understand we can't observe His body and blood in the supper. But a passage Lutherans use has Jesus saying my flesh I real food and my blood is real drink, something like that

It is real flesh and blood -- it's just not mortal flesh and blood, it is glorified flesh and blood that is bound with Jesus' divine nature. But as the Psalmist says, "You are a God who hides Himself", so this flesh and blood are hidden "in, with, and under" the bread and wine.
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Eucharist is a mystery. It's not something we do for God, but something God in His grace, kindness and love does for us, where He truly gives us His body and blood for our comfort. You can simply think of it as the Gospel, only in a tangible form.

So, it's ordinary bread and ordinary wine, but by the power of God's Word it's truly Christ's body and blood. We don't speculate on how, but trust in God's command and promise that it does and is exactly what Jesus says it is. Namely, His body for us, and His blood, the new testament (or covenant), which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. In other words, this meal is no ordinary meal. It's supernaturally tied to the cross. In the Lutheran tradition, we call this the Sacramental Union.

The idea that Christ is speaking symbolically does not hold up, for the grammar doesn't allow for it to be symbolism. This was recognised as a great problem to even to the Radical Reformers (Zwingli in particular) who did believe it was symbolic. Basically the sentence: "This is my body" cannot be translated as "This symbolises my body". For this reason, no Bible translation translates it like this. If anyone is interested, I'm happy to elaborate on this.

I used to hold to Memorialism myself, but what made me realise the Eucharist is much more is this:

1. Reflect on what the Bible has to say about sacrificial eating, and consider the trees in Eden, the Passover lamb, and the temple offerings. God often works through physical means.

2. Consider who instituted the Eucharist. It's not a rite made up by the Church, but it was instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ as His last will or testament before He was crucified.

3. Consider when it was instituted: On the Passover, which is fulfilled in Christ, who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. So in this meal, we are granted to eat the true Passover Lamb. This is highly significant and a real joy, comfort and privilege! It's not a mere symbol of, but truly is the communion of (or participation in) the body and blood of Christ (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).

4. Consider how central it has been to the Church ever since the beginning. Acts 2 reads: "They continued to hold firmly to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of the bread, and to the prayers." Here we have God's Word and by this loving God, gathering and loving our neighbour, the Eucharist and prayer all listed as central to the Christian faith. This is clearly echoed by the early Church also.

5. Finally, consider the purpose of the Eucharist, starting with that the Bible does not explain it as something we do for God in order to somehow merit His grace. It's not our work but it's God's gift to us.

Interestingly, the Eucharistic elements are symbols, but in the old meaning of the word, not today's meaning. "Symbol" comes from Greek and at root means "cast together", which matches the old meaning of something that conveys what it portrays -- so the bread is a symbol of Christ's Body because it brings us Christ's Body, and the wine is a symbol of His Blood because it brings us His Blood. They aren't "figures" of Jesus' Body and Blood, merely portraying them, they are conveyors of His Body and Blood, so when we eat the bread we eat His Body, and when we drink the wine we drink His Blood.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
1,928
1,714
38
London
Visit site
✟394,138.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Interestingly, the Eucharistic elements are symbols, but in the old meaning of the word, not today's meaning. "Symbol" comes from Greek and at root means "cast together", which matches the old meaning of something that conveys what it portrays -- so the bread is a symbol of Christ's Body because it brings us Christ's Body, and the wine is a symbol of His Blood because it brings us His Blood. They aren't "figures" of Jesus' Body and Blood, merely portraying them, they are conveyors of His Body and Blood, so when we eat the bread we eat His Body, and when we drink the wine we drink His Blood.

Yes, that’s right and I’m aware of this, but the way the word “symbol” or “symbolic” are used today, and particularly among other branches of the church, easily invites confusion. This is why we often use the term as commonly understood and contrast it with the literal meaning.
 
Upvote 0