Christian denominations add fuel to the atheist/agnostics beliefs.

tz620q · Apr 29, 2020

RBPerry said:
I have studied the history of the church extensively and we would have some other denominations if the Nights of Templar (Catholic hatchet men) hadn't murdered most of them, such as the Gnostic's.

Truthfully, this was meant as a general comment and not focused on you. I have no way of knowing based on what you have posted that you are an ex-Catholic. The comment was focused on Christians that feel that the Catholic church is not Christian and the members need to be "evangelized" out of it.

I do have one comment on what you put into your post. There are a lot of people here who have studied history and will scratch their heads and ignore you based on the sentence I quoted above. Truthfully, I can understand that you must have meant Knights Templar instead of Nights of Templar; but this group came to prominence during the Crusades and were exterminated shortly after the last Crusade. During that time, they were fighting mainly Muslims. The Gnostic sects died out many centuries before the Crusades. It is best if you are going to post odd history claims like this to actually put in a link to where you got this information.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

tz620q said:
It is one thing for a person to come to his own decision and move from one denomination to another. It is quite another when I come out of my church and find Baptists handing out anti-Catholic pamphlets and trying to convince our members to switch churches. I looked up the Pew Research done on this type of "evangelization" and found that about 40% of the people who quit the Catholic church due to being "evangelized" move to another denomination. 60% of the people just quit and become unchurched. Tearing someone's beliefs down is like doing remodeling on a house with dynamite. More often than not, the house will just fall down.

I do understand what you are saying, and I am not taking sides. My 1st thought however is that if a Catholic believer is convinced in what he believes, then how could he be so easily persuaded to change his denominational choice?

I for am a protestant believer and no amount of proselyting or conversation could convince me to change my position.

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

Major1 said:
I do understand what you are saying, and I am not taking sides. My 1st thought however is that if a Catholic believer is convinced in what he believes, then how could he be so easily persuaded to change his denominational choice?

I for am a protestant believer and no amount of proselyting or conversation could convince me to change my position.

I find that sharing actual factual information is more useful than simply sharing negative summary opinion.

And as I am about to post below -

BobRyan said:
Also I find that it is not helpful at all to be close-minded when it comes to "looking at the facts" when talking to Catholics and others -- just simply "blasting someone" with "your denomination is wrong for whatever reason I might happen to imagine at the moment" in a kind of "and I have no interest in looking to see if this is even accurate".. does more to harm any efforts in dialogue than help.

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

tz620q said:
Truthfully, this was meant as a general comment and not focused on you. I have no way of knowing based on what you have posted that you are an ex-Catholic. The comment was focused on Christians that feel that the Catholic church is not Christian and the members need to be "evangelized" out of it.

I agree that making negative summary statements, emotional arguments etc against the Catholic church is not helpful - but some facts that are also freely stated on Catholic websites like "NewAdvent" or that are given as "answers" in public facing Catholic publications like "Catholic Digest" - can be helpful to everyone.

Also I find that it is not helpful at all to be close-minded when it comes to "looking at the facts" when talking to Catholics and others -- just simply "blasting someone" with "your denomination is wrong for whatever reason I might happen to imagine at the moment" in a kind of "and I have no interest in looking to see if this is even accurate".. does more to harm any efforts in dialogue than help.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
hmmm where have we seen that posted before on this thread?

where we then found this still-irrefutable-answer.

=============================

Judgment as we see in
Romans 2:4-16
and in 2 Cor 5:10
And in Dan 7:9-10

Yes I am aware of those chapters describing that very judgment.
===============================

But I think there are some that want even more opportunities to invite that same answer ... maybe there is something about "irrefutable" that makes one want to see it again.

I am one of those people that loves to see the details in that answer so..

==================== 2 Cor 5
2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Some will say that 2 Cor 5:10 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.

=================== Daniel 7
Dan 7
he Ancient of Days
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

... 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Some will say that Daniel 7 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.

=============== Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

success:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

fail:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

success:
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Some will say that Romans 2 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.

1. I think we would all agree that SDAs are not Calvinists - so if that is the complaint then we simply stand with those who are not Calvinists when we point out that Bible does not support OSAS or Calvinism.

2. SDAs teach that we "are saved by grace through faith" but that does not mean we are feeling the need to "fix" those texts quoted above.

3.The texts I just quoted above are true - even without 'fixing' them
- the Bible says "the wages of sin is death" in Rom 3:23.
Romans 2 and 1 Cor 6 make it clear when they say "do not be deceived" into thinking that the reward for evil deeds is "heaven". 2 Cor 5:10 says to "be rewarded for the deeds done in the body whether good OR BAD". No text says that the reward for bad deeds is 'heaven' or "less toys in heaven" so to speak... rather it is not heaven at all according to Paul in 1 Cor 6 and Christ in Matthew 7.

Yes - an extreme form of eisegesis could be used to "read into" those texts a kind of "yes but hopefully this just means less toys in heaven as reward for bad deeds on earth" sort of insert -- but that is hardly objective and is not even remotely exegesis.

========================

Now let me ask you a question... the person that brought up "Investigative Judgment" on this thread is not you and is not me... but interesting that when the texts are provided above - that person does not address the issue. Would you agree that one possible reason for that -- is that it would require looking at these texts instead of relying on a non-Bible argument against SDA doctrine?

If that is the case - what would there be - to be gained by non-bible arguments against SDAs or in fact against any denomination?

If you are referring to me......I am more than happy to answer your questions on the Scriptures. However...…….it is impossible to do so when you ask so many at one time.

I will now address one that you posted in 2 Cor 5:10...……..
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

When read we can see clearly that there is NOTHING in that Scripture that even suggests that there is an "Investigative Judgment".

That Scripture defines the "Judgement Seat of Christ" or as sometimes said.....
THE BEMA SEAT.

1 Corth 3:10-15...........
"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved-even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This is only for believers and The Bema Seat Judgment of Christ takes place in Heaven right after the Rapture and is to award crowns to Church Age believers for the things we’ve done while on Earth. NO WHERE in the Scriptures is there any suggestion that anyone standing before the BEMA SEAT will lose their salvation my dear friend as does the SDA Investigative Judgement teach you.

I also believe the Bible teaches us that the Rapture of the Church will take place before Daniel’s 70th Week begins. Therefore I think it’s safe to assume the Bema Seat judgment will take place near the time when Daniel’s 70th Week begins to unfold on Earth.

IT is NOT a judgment of the believers sin because all of those sins were fully paid for on the cross of Christ. The BEMA SEAT is to see whether those present are going to receive a reward or not.

ALL believers will be judged that we may receive the things done in the body. Our rewards will be based on the way we lived the Christian life. In other words....
how did we live down here AFTER we accepted Christ???

If you would like to have another explanation of a selected Scripture, please post it and I will be more than happy to give you my understanding.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
I find that sharing actual factual information is more useful than simply sharing negative summary opinion.

Opinions are a wonderful thing aren't they??

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

Major1 said:
If you are referring to me......I am more than happy to answer your questions on the Scriptures. However...…….it is impossible to do so when you ask so many at one time.

If you are referring to this post -- Yesterday at 2:05 PM #53

It is my response to each one of your points of accusation. I limit my post to just the topics you brought up in your own post... now you say it is too many?

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
I agree that making negative summary statements, emotional arguments etc against the Catholic church is not helpful - but some facts that are also freely stated on Catholic websites like "NewAdvent" or that are given as "answers" in public facing Catholic publications like "Catholic Digest" - can be helpful to everyone.

Also I find that it is not helpful at all to be close-minded when it comes to "looking at the facts" when talking to Catholics and others -- just simply "blasting someone" with "your denomination is wrong for whatever reason I might happen to imagine at the moment" in a kind of "and I have no interest in looking to see if this is even accurate".. does more to harm any efforts in dialogue than help.

I totally agree wth your opinion.

The one and only thing that should be considered in any discussion wth a Catholic believer is …..What does the Bible say about what you accept as truth?????

Example......
The Catholic church teaches that Mary was born without sin in the "Immaculate Conception" which says that Mary was free from all stain of original sin.

As defined by Pius IX as follows:

"In the first instance of her [Mary's] conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin." Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX

What the Bible says must be the focus of the conversation, not personal opinions.

Romans 3:23
""All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

1 John 1:8
"If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him."

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
Judgment as we see in..
==================== 2 Cor 5
2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Some will say that 2 Cor 5:10 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.

Major1 said:
I will now address one that you posted in 2 Cor 5:10...……..
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

When read we can see clearly that there is NOTHING in that Scripture that even suggests that there is an "Investigative Judgment".

Until you read the text and see that it is in fact a review of the historic facts "deeds done" in fact done on earth in the body " according to what he has done" - a look at the historic facts.

"so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Major1 said:
That Scripture defines the "Judgement Seat of Christ" or as sometimes said.....
THE BEMA SEAT.

We already see that in the text that calls it "the judgement seat of Christ".

Roman 6:23 says that the "reward" for bad deed is 'death' not "less toys in heaven" as some have proposed.

1 Cor 6 says to Christians in the church "do not be deceived" into thinking that the reward for evil deeds is "heaven but with less toys".

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

instead of "all WILL inherit no matter what their deeds" we have "NEITHER" and "NOR" -- the negative form.

Also seen in Romans 2:4-16
Also seen in Christ's statement on this very point in Matthew "by their fruits you shall know them"

Major1 said:
I also believe the Bible teaches us that the Rapture of the Church will take place before Daniel’s 70th Week begins. Therefore I think it’s safe to assume the Bema Seat judgment will take place near the time when Daniel’s 70th Week begins to unfold on Earth.
.

That strays far from the topic.

But since you bring it up.

Daniel 9 - 70-weeks 490 days (day for year in all apocalyptic timelines) points to the first coming of Christ 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem ... is AD 27 when Christ was baptized. And then the next 7 years is the "last week" in the midst of that week Christ is crucified. At the end of that 7th week (day for year) - Stephen is stoned and as Paul says in Acts 13 "we turn to the gentiles".

BTW all timelines in the bible are contiguous as given so then the 1260 days (day for year) yyears of Dan7 is a single contiguous timeline.
And in Dan 8 the 2300 days (day for year) years is a single contiguous timeline.
And in Dan 9 -- 70 weeks (ie 490 days... day for year... 490 years) a single contiguous timeline.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
I you are referring to this post -- Yesterday at 2:05 PM #53

It is my response to each one of your points of accusation. I limit my post to just the topics you brought up in your own post... now you say it is too many?

Yes.....#53 was your post and there was a lot more in it than I posted to you originally.

In my 1st post to you in #50 I actually said...…………..

Bob...… I do not want to argue but are you aware that SDA followers ADD works to simple faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Does that fact give you any pause?

According to the official Statement on Doctrine by the SDA, accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour is NOT sufficient to be saved. SDA's teach that the life a person lives must be taken into account, even after they have died. SDA's believe exclusively in a doctrine called the "Investigative Judgment" where Christ enters into the Holy of Holies in Heaven to decide whether or not we are "worthy" to enter Heaven.

It seems to me that there were only 2 TWO points made to you.

1. SDA's ADD works to salvation. (Sat. worship)
2. SDA's believe in the nonbiblical understanding of an Investigative judgment.

Both of those comments are NOT opinions but come directly from the SDA statement of faith.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

RBPerry said:
Yes they are in my opinion and only Christ can determine the heart of a person. What you don't see and I have seen is the love and commitment many SDA people have. You are basing your beliefs on their doctrines that you don't support, and I don't either.

Do you know how the worship was changed from Saturday to Sunday and who changed it. Constantine changed it shortly after becoming a Christian because Rome had many sun god worshipers and he wanted to keep them happy. Should it have been changed for that reason, no it shouldn't have. I take a different approach, I believe in worshiping God seven days a week, not just on one particular day.

I wrote a paper in college about alcohol, the SDA were teaching that Jesus turned the water into grape juice, and that is non sense. As I pointed out you don't put new wine in old wine skin because it will rupture as the wine ferments meaning turns to wine with alcohol. When Peter was accused of being drunk with wine he basically said "it's 9am, it is too early to be drunk." I was kicked out of Loma Linda because I wouldn't buy into their bull. Ask any Jewish Rabbi if drinking wine was or is a sin based on the old testament, they will quickly tell you no. Jesus told Peter to take a little wine for his stomach.

I was well brain washed by the time I entered college, however I finally decided to think for myself and not just regurgitate what I was being taught.

Bottom line, you may not accept them and other may not, but the SDA people love God, love Christ and the Holy Spirit, so I will always call them brothers and sisters in Christ.

I have no problem with your understanding and I will not argue the difference. I also know several SDA people and they are exactly as you describe.

All I am saying is that what WE think and what God expects are two very different things.

SDA doctrine demands that worship is to be done on Saturday, the Sabbath.
Now is that a Bible doctrine accepted by Christian theology...……..NO!

SDA doctrine demands that believers spirts on death do not go to heaven.
Now is that a Bible doctrine accepted by Christian theology...……..NO!

SDA doctrine demands According to Mrs. White and SDAs, that Christ acquired a sinful nature.
(Mrs. White said: "Christ took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature. Christ took our nature and it's deteriorating condition." (Q.D. p.654-656).
Now is that a Bible doctrine accepted by Christian theology...……...NO!

SDAs teach that though saved by grace, we are kept saved by keeping the Law.
Now is that what the Bible tells us...…………………………………………………NO!

SDAs believe that Sunday keeping will be the mark of the Beast of Revelation 13:16-18.
Now is that what the Bible tells us...………………………………………………...NO!.

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

Major1 said:
It seems to me that there were only 2 TWO points made to you.

1. SDA's ADD works to salvation. (Sat. worship)
2. SDA's believe in the nonbiblical understanding of an Investigative judgment.

Both of those comments are NOT opinions but come directly from the SDA statement of faith.

The first one is not a quote of the SDA statement of faith.

hence my former response to it... as follows
-========================================

is it "a fact"??

I am not aware of "saved by faith and works" in the SDA doctrinal statements.

But I know about this --
1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should be disqualified.

It is not my practice to call that statement by Paul in 1 Cor 9 "saved by faith and works"

The lost person comes to Christ and is justified by faith and not "faith and his own works".

=======================

Which I suppose you already know.

And now... because I really really love the Bible details for this

BobRyan said:
Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

success:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

fail:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

success:
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Some will say that Romans 2 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
Until you read the text and see that it is in fact a review of the historic facts "deeds done" in fact done on earth in the body " according to what he has done" - a look at the historic facts.

"so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

We already see that in the text that calls it "the judgement seat of Christ".

Roman 6:23 says that the "reward" for bad deed is 'death' not "less toys in heaven" as some have proposed.

1 Cor 6 says to Christians in the church "do not be deceived" into thinking that the reward for evil deeds is "heaven but with less toys".

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

instead of "all WILL inherit no matter what their deeds" we have "NEITHER" and "NOR" -- the negative form.

Also seen in Romans 2:4-16
Also seen in Christ's statement on this very point in Matthew "by their fruits you shall know them"

That strays far from the topic.

But since you bring it up.

Daniel 9 - 70-weeks 490 days (day for year in all apocalyptic timelines) points to the first coming of Christ 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem ... is AD 27 when Christ was baptized. And then the next 7 years is the "last week" in the midst of that week Christ is crucified. At the end of that 7th week (day for year) - Stephen is stoned and as Paul says in Acts 13 "we turn to the gentiles".

BTW all timelines in the bible are contiguous as given so then the 1260 days (day for year) yyears of Dan7 is a single contiguous timeline.
And in Dan 8 the 2300 days (day for year) years is a single contiguous timeline.
And in Dan 9 -- 70 weeks (ie 490 days... day for year... 490 years) a single contiguous timeline.

"Deeds done in the body" is exactly what I said Bob. You are arguing something that you actually agree with????

ALL judgment must be based what has been done not what will be done so yes I agree with...……….your response of...
"it is in fact a review of the historic facts "deeds done" in fact done on earth in the body " according to what he has done".

What the BEMA SEAT is, is again a reward presentation and NOT a judgment.

It must be understood that all of the believers sin was JUDGED (PAID FOR) by Christ when He died for us.

1 Peter 3:18...…...
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit".

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

Major1 said:
"Deeds done in the body" is exactly what I said Bob. You are arguing something that you actually agree with????

"Deeds done in the body " refer to historic facts - the 2 Cor 5:10 judgment is based on looking at the historic facts for each person - is this not the very thing you denied??

Major1 said:
What the BEMA SEAT is, is again a reward presentation and NOT a judgment.

By contrast 2 Cor 5;10 says it IS judgment "the Judgment seat of Christ" not the "give out the toys seat of Christ" as I am sure we both agree.

And as already pointed out the "reward" for wicked deeds is not "more heaven" or "heaven with less toys" according to actual scripture - Rom 6:23 'the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life" - the wages/reward for evil deeds is not "less toys" according to scripture.

The court sits, the books opened and the "deeds" are evaluated...

BobRyan said:
Dan 7
he Ancient of Days
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

... 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Some will say that Daniel 7 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.
.

A very detailed review of that judgment -- with deeds evaluated "good" vs "bad"

A very good explanation of "books opened" and "deeds evaluated"... paraphrase "investigative".

BobRyan said:
Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

success:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

fail:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

success:
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Some will say that Romans 2 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.

Investigating the record of "deeds" as Romans 2 points out.
Where "books are opened" Dan 7 and the deeds are reviewed to determine Romans 2 - result.

Major1 said:
When read we can see clearly that there is NOTHING in that Scripture that even suggests that there is an "Investigative Judgment".

You are of course welcomed to your opinion no matter the details being pointed out in my post.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
The first one is not a quote of the SDA statement of faith.

hence my former response to it... as follows
-========================================

is it "a fact"??

I am not aware of "saved by faith and works" in the SDA doctrinal statements.

But I know about this --
1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should be disqualified.

It is not my practice to call that statement by Paul in 1 Cor 9 "saved by faith and works"

The lost person comes to Christ and is justified by faith and not "faith and his own works".

=======================

Which I suppose you already know.

And now... because I really really love the Bible details for this

I disagree.

Sabbath worhip refers to an extreme form of the belief in which membership in the true church, or even salvation, is conditional upon keeping the Sabbath law. As such, Sabbatarianism is at the least a form of legalism and at most a denial of salvation by grace.

That being said, it then becomes a false doctrine when any teaching that denies salvation by grace alone by teaching that eternal life is merited, earned, conditioned, or maintained through human effort, religious ritual, financial donations, obedience to laws/commandments, church membership, and/or moral behavior.

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
"Deeds done in the body " refer to historic facts - the 2 Cor 5:10 judgment is based on looking at the historic facts for each person - is this not the very thing you denied??

By contrast 2 Cor 5;10 says it IS judgment "the Judgment seat of Christ" not the "give out the toys seat of Christ" as I am sure we both agree.

And as already pointed out the "reward" for wicked deeds is not "more heaven" or "heaven with less toys" according to actual scripture - Rom 6:23 'the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life" - the wages/reward for evil deeds is not "less toys" according to scripture.

The court sits, the books opened and the "deeds" are evaluated...

A very detailed review of that judgment -- with deeds evaluated "good" vs "bad"

At this ‘bema’ believers are to be made manifest, that each may “receive the things done in (or through) the body,” according to what he has done, “whether it be good or bad.” There they will receive rewards for their faithfulness to the Lord. For all that has been contrary in their lives to His will they will suffer loss of rewards not a loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:15). (VINE’S EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF NEW TESTAMENT WORDS)

Rewards are NOT more toys.

The results of the judgment are two-fold: (1) a reward received or (2) a reward lost. If a man’s work remains undamaged by the fire, accordingly, he receives rewards (Greek misthos) … If a man’s work does not endure, and is consumed in the fire, then he shall “suffer loss.” Everything he has devoted himself to in this life (those things done in his own strength and for his own glory) shall be burnt up suddenly. “But he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15). It is important to notice that such a man does not suffer the loss of his salvation, but the loss of reward. The stress is not on a man’s relationship to Christ, but upon service to Christ.
(Liberty Bible Commentary, Volume II, pp. 421-422.)
What is the 'Bema' Seat of Christ?

Major1 · Apr 29, 2020

BobRyan said:
"Deeds done in the body " refer to historic facts - the 2 Cor 5:10 judgment is based on looking at the historic facts for each person - is this not the very thing you denied??

By contrast 2 Cor 5;10 says it IS judgment "the Judgment seat of Christ" not the "give out the toys seat of Christ" as I am sure we both agree.

And as already pointed out the "reward" for wicked deeds is not "more heaven" or "heaven with less toys" according to actual scripture - Rom 6:23 'the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life" - the wages/reward for evil deeds is not "less toys" according to scripture.

The court sits, the books opened and the "deeds" are evaluated...

A very detailed review of that judgment -- with deeds evaluated "good" vs "bad"

One of the unique doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church that make the place of that church within evangelical Christianity questionable. First taught in Adventism by Hiram Edson, F.B. Hahn, and O.R.L. Crosier, it was accepted as “present truth” by those who would later become known as Seventh-day Adventists (SDAs) after it was confirmed and taught in visions received by Ellen G. White.

The doctrine teaches that in the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Sanctuary Christ is now conducting an investigation into the lives of all who have ever professed belief in Christ. He is judging all their works, by the standard of God's Law. All those whose lives fail to measure up to the standard of the Law are rejected and condemned as not having true faith. Those whose lives meet that standard and thus manifest the perfect character and righteousness of Christ are recognized as having true faith, and so their sins are “blotted out.”

SDAs say, “This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.” Evangelicals believe, and the Bible teaches (Rom. 3:21-26), that God's justice in saving sinners who trust Jesus to save them is vindicated by the blood of Jesus His death in their place, in their behalf.

Seventh-day Adventist Church Profile Unique Terms:
“Investigative Judgement,” “Spirit of Prophecy,” “Coming into the Truth” (believing and living the full SDA message and lifestyle), “Remnant Church.”

Facts and False Doctrines of the Seventh Day Adventist Church - Berean Publishers

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

Major1 said:
I disagree.

Sabbath worhip refers to an extreme form of the belief

by contrast

Christ said -
Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
Isaiah 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"
1 John 5:2-3 "2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th Commandment Eph 6:1-2

And as we see in Matthew 17 - Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory - before the cross happens -- all of them kept the Sabbath instead of claiming that it was "an extreme form of belief".

Major1 said:
As such, Sabbatarianism is at the least a form of legalism and at most a denial of salvation by grace. .

Your negative view noted... but state something that is true please a fact that we can all work with or review or test.

BobRyan · Apr 29, 2020

Major1 said:
At this ‘bema’ believers are to be made manifest, that each may “receive the things done in (or through) the body,” according to what he has done, “whether it be good or bad.”

The reward for bad deeds is stated in Romans 6:23 just when your doctrine would hope to insert some "lesser heaven" or fewer toys etc but still heaven.

Major1 said:
Rewards are NOT more toys.

The results of the judgment are two-fold: (1) a reward received or (2) a reward lost.

Let's see how Romans 2 describes rewards for good deeds vs the loss for bad deeds.

(and "again" - Bible details matter... even if you do not take the time to read them)

BobRyan said:
Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

success:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

fail:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

success:
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Some will say that Romans 2 "needs to be fixed" so it does not look like some sort of "investigative" judgment where facts are reviewed and conclusions drawn. ... ok not trying to argue with them on whatever they need at that point.

After actually reading that Romans 2 text... one might suppose...

Major1 said:
SDAs say, “This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.”

hey - you are right on that point. SDA doctrine does say that -- I thought we might never see it in your post.

tz620q · Apr 29, 2020

Major1 said:
I do understand what you are saying, and I am not taking sides. My 1st thought however is that if a Catholic believer is convinced in what he believes, then how could he be so easily persuaded to change his denominational choice?

I for am a protestant believer and no amount of proselyting or conversation could convince me to change my position.

When I was in college, I had a job as a staff assistant at a dormitory. The Moonies were prominent back then and were cruising college campuses trying to nab members. Our college had made it illegal for this type of solicitation on college premises, so we were trained to recognize their tactics and try to stop them. Typically they were looking for people sitting alone and looking miserable. Then they would have someone from the opposite sex go sit with them and start up a conversation. The conversation would be turned to their pitch and they would try to reel in their fish.

The same tactics are used by wolves trying to nab sheep or lions trying to kill zebras. It is easy enough for a person to see someone coming out of Mass with a frown on their face and looking like they didn't want to be there. Usually these are teenagers who are rebelling against their parent's values and questioning their own. These people are ripe for convincing that their parent's were wrong and Catholicism is a hoax.

I agree with you that if the person is correctly catechized this shouldn't happen; and that is on the church for not convincing the young person completely. Still it is telling the tactics used by those who do this. It is almost a maxim within these groups that Catholics could not believe in Christ and need to be evangelized. I had a relative that traveled to Haiti to show a film called "The Jesus Film". They traveled to a predominantly Catholic country after several major natural disasters had devastated it to show a film. They stayed in a fenced compound to protect them against the "lawless" Haitians. They traveled in caravans to different sites to show this movie. There was little contact with the people other than those who were servants to the man who owned the compound and little effort made to understand the people except to view them as a threat. As far as I know, this was my relative's first trip outside the U.S., which is always shocking, especially to a poor country like Haiti. It saddened me that their viewpoint was that the one thing needed by these people at that time was to know Christ better. I found myself choking back telling them about the many efforts my own church makes to help the people there. I did not feel it my place to tear down their efforts, no matter how misguided. Was what they were doing bad? No, but it was so arrogant as to prove the term used in Catholicism of "invincible ignorance".

All of these stories are more in agreement with your approach than disagreement. They are just points in a life spent wondering after the truth. The one thing that I have picked up is from the Apostle Paul. If you want to be a spiritual father to someone, it is not a one time event; but a lifelong challenge where you are making yourself responsible for their salvation out of love for their eternal destiny.

God be with you today and keep you safe.

Christian denominations add fuel to the atheist/agnostics beliefs.

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