What it would entail to lose your salvation.

mindlight · Apr 29, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Instead of this being yet another thread out of billions on how you can or cannot lose your salvation, let's take a look at what would have to happen for you to lose your salvation. To answer that question we have to examine how a person is saved.

The bible says that we are are saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jeaus Christ which Paul describes the Gospel quite well in 1 Corrinthians 15:1-8). Other verses that say that we are saved by grace through faith are Ephesians 2:8-9, Roman's 10:9, John 3:16, Romans 1:16, John 5:24, 1 John 5:13, Titus 3:5, Acts 16:30-31, and there are more but I think cannot think of them at the moment).

The Bible says that there is not one person who ever lived that cannot be saved (Isaiah 50;2).

The bible also says that when a person comes to Christ and places their faith in him that they are a new creation (2 Corrinthians 5:17). For a born again Christian to lose their salvation God would have to somehow undo our new creation. Something that NO verse in the Bible says that God will do.

A Christian is redeemed and when they are born again they are born of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). They are declared Justified and Righteous to God (Roman's 5:1, 2 Corrinthians 5:21) For our salvation to be lost God would have to break his promise of one day redeeming us when our Lord returns and he would have go declare us unrighteous (even though we were bought by the perfect blood of Jesus Christ and this is an impossibility as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:12) Peter also calls our inheritance "reserved in heaven for us as an inheritance that can never blemish,perish, or fade away) so, this is impossible.

Paul also talks about when we are born again we are marked with a seal by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14) for God to take away our salvation he would have to break this seal and break this security in Christ Which is the complete opposite of what a seal means in the Bible. See the seals of the tribulation scrolls in Revelation or click here for a definition of what a seal means in the Bible and where the word seal is used in the Biblehttps://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/seal/

Finally if a Christian could lose their salvation than Paul, Peter, and John lied to us and our Christian faith is built amongst a web of lies for the reasons I gave above. The apostle John talked nothing short of eternal security in Christ, Peter did, and so did Paul. Not only that but the writer of Hebrews did as well in Hebrews 10:10.

And to top it all off Jesus Christ (who many Christian's believe to be God in the Flesh) lied as well. Jesus promises in John 6:37-40 that not ONE of those the Father gives him will be lost. He again promises in John 10:9 that he is the gate and whoever enters through him WILL be saved. See the beginning of John 10 until John 10:9 to fully understand just what Christ is talking about here.

He also says in John 10:28-30 that he gives his sheep (Born again Christians) Eternal life. He promises that nobody can take them out of Gods hand (not even themselves to claim that is to claim that somehow we are more powerful than God plus if somebody could freely walk out of Gods hand dont you think he would have mentioned it in his promise meant to comfort his believers?) He also says that his sheep will NEVER perish!

In order for us to lose our salvation we would have to redefine what Eternal life means correct? Because idk the last time I heard the word Eternal it meant FOREVER!

Not to mention in order to lose our salvation we would have to lose the Holy Spirit. Which God promised would be with us FOREVER (John 14:16) (! Again with that forever/eternal word... must be the meaning of forever has changed in the last 2,000 years...)

So to say that you can lose your salvation is calling God a liar and if you cannot trust God who can you trust? If we cannot trust scripture than who can we trust? Just like if Christ was never raised from the dead our faith is in vain if we do not and cannot trust the promises of God than our faith is in vain as well. God has NEVER failed go keep a promise yet, never has, and never will. When Jesus said in Revelation 3:5 that those who are victorious (Born again. John uses the same terminology in 1 John 5:4) he will NEVER erase them from the book of life (curses there's that never, eternal, forever word again!) but will acknowledge our name before God the Father and his Angel's as righteous! Tell me, if we can never be erased from the book of life and are declared righteous just... how can we lose our salvation again?

These points and examples are just some of the verses in the bible that speak about the security of the born again believer.

In order for a "Christian" to "lose" their salvation is if they were never born again and had proper faith to begin with with and therefore were never saved. It takes the Holy Spirit to be saved, yes? I think we can all agree on that. A proper faith will always have repentance,works,dying bvb to self, and ultimately sanctification. If those things are absent from your life it's about time you started rethinking your faith. If all of those things are present in your life than have peace! You are saved and Hod has promised to give you a new body when he returns. We seek Jesus Christ as a way OUT of our sin problem not to remain living in sin forever.

Salvation is as secure as the existence of the God who promises it and guarantees it. Since that is an unshakeable foundation I cannot lose my salvation. #OSAS.

jamesbond007 · Apr 29, 2020

The Unforgivable Sin.

BBAS 64 · Apr 29, 2020

Basil the Great said:
We are not in a position to know if Judas was saved or not. However, it seems likely that he did have a personal relationship with Jesus, so we might be on shaky ground to claim that he was never saved.

Good Day, Basil

I think the Scripture is pretty clear on the question... You know in all my reading of Augustine I do not believe that he ever likened "a personal relationship" with "being saved". Now that I think about it no body in the whole of the NT speaks in those kinds of terms.

I would say the Sadducees and Pharisees had a continual on going personal relationship with Jesus.
But none would contend that they were saved...

So to say "a personal relationship" = "being saved" would be very shaky ground. Would you agree??

In Him

Bill

BBAS 64 · Apr 29, 2020

bling said:
Whenever we try to understand scripture we have got to take it in context, context, context, context and context. Who is saying it, when did he say it, who is he talking to, why is he saying it, and what are the verses around what was said. Christ is addressing the

2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” 3 Then Jesus told them this parable:

There is not just one parable but we have three parables given together:

One you have a coin which does not know it is lost or the way home, (the woman looks hard for it)

Another you have a sheep who does know it is lost, wants to be home but does not know how to get there (the Shepherd goes after).

Those two would not upset the Pharisees and teachers of the Law, but the third parable actually has two lost in it:

The prodigal son (representing the tax collectors and sinners) who knows he is lost and does not want to go home to begin with, so the Father does not seek after him, since this is a real learning opportunity for the young son and it has to be his choice.

The four lost is the son who thinks he is home in a strong relationship with the father (the Pharisees and teachers of the Law) but he is not if he does not join the party, Jesus leaves it to them to finish the story, what will you do?

Good Day,Bling

I do understand what you are saying DA Carson gave a lecture on why there were 3 and steps though them textually and historically you may find that useful.

But that being said that does not change the nature of the attachment of the sheep to the Shepard and the Shepard to His sheep.

Edited to add* Forgot about this one... The Psalm of the Sheep DA Carson:

In Him

Bill

bling · Apr 29, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,Bling

I do understand what you are saying DA Carson gave a lecture on why there were 3 and steps though them textually and historically you may find that useful.

But that being said that does not change the nature of the attachment of the sheep to the Shepard and the Shepard to His sheep.

Edited to add* Forgot about this one... The Psalm of the Sheep DA Carson:

In Him

Bill

Sheep differ and Christians differ in their maturity. Not everyone fits the singular sheep to shepherd scenario, but everyone fits at least one of the parable scenarios.

Randy777 · Apr 29, 2020

Denying Jesus is such a condition to lose your salvation. The office of apostleship, as in the 12, does not end with the death of the body. As they will sit on 12 thrones of judgment. Judas abandoned his office and a replacement was sought. James was not replaced when he was put to the sword as he was faithful to Jesus.

Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Oldmantook · Apr 29, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Instead of this being yet another thread out of billions on how you can or cannot lose your salvation, let's take a look at what would have to happen for you to lose your salvation. To answer that question we have to examine how a person is saved.

The bible says that we are are saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jeaus Christ which Paul describes the Gospel quite well in 1 Corrinthians 15:1-8). Other verses that say that we are saved by grace through faith are Ephesians 2:8-9, Roman's 10:9, John 3:16, Romans 1:16, John 5:24, 1 John 5:13, Titus 3:5, Acts 16:30-31, and there are more but I think cannot think of them at the moment).

The Bible says that there is not one person who ever lived that cannot be saved (Isaiah 50;2).

The bible also says that when a person comes to Christ and places their faith in him that they are a new creation (2 Corrinthians 5:17). For a born again Christian to lose their salvation God would have to somehow undo our new creation. Something that NO verse in the Bible says that God will do.

A Christian is redeemed and when they are born again they are born of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). They are declared Justified and Righteous to God (Roman's 5:1, 2 Corrinthians 5:21) For our salvation to be lost God would have to break his promise of one day redeeming us when our Lord returns and he would have go declare us unrighteous (even though we were bought by the perfect blood of Jesus Christ and this is an impossibility as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:12) Peter also calls our inheritance "reserved in heaven for us as an inheritance that can never blemish,perish, or fade away) so, this is impossible.

Paul also talks about when we are born again we are marked with a seal by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14) for God to take away our salvation he would have to break this seal and break this security in Christ Which is the complete opposite of what a seal means in the Bible. See the seals of the tribulation scrolls in Revelation or click here for a definition of what a seal means in the Bible and where the word seal is used in the Biblehttps://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/seal/

Finally if a Christian could lose their salvation than Paul, Peter, and John lied to us and our Christian faith is built amongst a web of lies for the reasons I gave above. The apostle John talked nothing short of eternal security in Christ, Peter did, and so did Paul. Not only that but the writer of Hebrews did as well in Hebrews 10:10.

And to top it all off Jesus Christ (who many Christian's believe to be God in the Flesh) lied as well. Jesus promises in John 6:37-40 that not ONE of those the Father gives him will be lost. He again promises in John 10:9 that he is the gate and whoever enters through him WILL be saved. See the beginning of John 10 until John 10:9 to fully understand just what Christ is talking about here.

He also says in John 10:28-30 that he gives his sheep (Born again Christians) Eternal life. He promises that nobody can take them out of Gods hand (not even themselves to claim that is to claim that somehow we are more powerful than God plus if somebody could freely walk out of Gods hand dont you think he would have mentioned it in his promise meant to comfort his believers?) He also says that his sheep will NEVER perish!

In order for us to lose our salvation we would have to redefine what Eternal life means correct? Because idk the last time I heard the word Eternal it meant FOREVER!

Not to mention in order to lose our salvation we would have to lose the Holy Spirit. Which God promised would be with us FOREVER (John 14:16) (! Again with that forever/eternal word... must be the meaning of forever has changed in the last 2,000 years...)

So to say that you can lose your salvation is calling God a liar and if you cannot trust God who can you trust? If we cannot trust scripture than who can we trust? Just like if Christ was never raised from the dead our faith is in vain if we do not and cannot trust the promises of God than our faith is in vain as well. God has NEVER failed go keep a promise yet, never has, and never will. When Jesus said in Revelation 3:5 that those who are victorious (Born again. John uses the same terminology in 1 John 5:4) he will NEVER erase them from the book of life (curses there's that never, eternal, forever word again!) but will acknowledge our name before God the Father and his Angel's as righteous! Tell me, if we can never be erased from the book of life and are declared righteous just... how can we lose our salvation again?

These points and examples are just some of the verses in the bible that speak about the security of the born again believer.

In order for a "Christian" to "lose" their salvation is if they were never born again and had proper faith to begin with with and therefore were never saved. It takes the Holy Spirit to be saved, yes? I think we can all agree on that. A proper faith will always have repentance,works,dying bvb to self, and ultimately sanctification. If those things are absent from your life it's about time you started rethinking your faith. If all of those things are present in your life than have peace! You are saved and Hod has promised to give you a new body when he returns. We seek Jesus Christ as a way OUT of our sin problem not to remain living in sin forever.

Just go ahead and take the mark of the beast and see where you end up.

Basil the Great · Apr 29, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Basil

I think the Scripture is pretty clear on the question... You know in all my reading of Augustine I do not believe that he ever likened "a personal relationship" with "being saved". Now that I think about it no body in the whole of the NT speaks in those kinds of terms.

I would say the Sadducees and Pharisees had a continual on going personal relationship with Jesus.
But none would contend that they were saved...

So to say "a personal relationship" = "being saved" would be very shaky ground. Would you agree??

In Him

Bill

Yes, I agree, though a personal relationship probably has a bearing on one's salvation, in most cases.

eleos1954 · Apr 29, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Instead of this being yet another thread out of billions on how you can or cannot lose your salvation, let's take a look at what would have to happen for you to lose your salvation. To answer that question we have to examine how a person is saved.

The bible says that we are are saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jeaus Christ which Paul describes the Gospel quite well in 1 Corrinthians 15:1-8). Other verses that say that we are saved by grace through faith are Ephesians 2:8-9, Roman's 10:9, John 3:16, Romans 1:16, John 5:24, 1 John 5:13, Titus 3:5, Acts 16:30-31, and there are more but I think cannot think of them at the moment).

The Bible says that there is not one person who ever lived that cannot be saved (Isaiah 50;2).

The bible also says that when a person comes to Christ and places their faith in him that they are a new creation (2 Corrinthians 5:17). For a born again Christian to lose their salvation God would have to somehow undo our new creation. Something that NO verse in the Bible says that God will do.

A Christian is redeemed and when they are born again they are born of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). They are declared Justified and Righteous to God (Roman's 5:1, 2 Corrinthians 5:21) For our salvation to be lost God would have to break his promise of one day redeeming us when our Lord returns and he would have go declare us unrighteous (even though we were bought by the perfect blood of Jesus Christ and this is an impossibility as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:12) Peter also calls our inheritance "reserved in heaven for us as an inheritance that can never blemish,perish, or fade away) so, this is impossible.

Paul also talks about when we are born again we are marked with a seal by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14) for God to take away our salvation he would have to break this seal and break this security in Christ Which is the complete opposite of what a seal means in the Bible. See the seals of the tribulation scrolls in Revelation or click here for a definition of what a seal means in the Bible and where the word seal is used in the Biblehttps://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/seal/

Finally if a Christian could lose their salvation than Paul, Peter, and John lied to us and our Christian faith is built amongst a web of lies for the reasons I gave above. The apostle John talked nothing short of eternal security in Christ, Peter did, and so did Paul. Not only that but the writer of Hebrews did as well in Hebrews 10:10.

And to top it all off Jesus Christ (who many Christian's believe to be God in the Flesh) lied as well. Jesus promises in John 6:37-40 that not ONE of those the Father gives him will be lost. He again promises in John 10:9 that he is the gate and whoever enters through him WILL be saved. See the beginning of John 10 until John 10:9 to fully understand just what Christ is talking about here.

He also says in John 10:28-30 that he gives his sheep (Born again Christians) Eternal life. He promises that nobody can take them out of Gods hand (not even themselves to claim that is to claim that somehow we are more powerful than God plus if somebody could freely walk out of Gods hand dont you think he would have mentioned it in his promise meant to comfort his believers?) He also says that his sheep will NEVER perish!

In order for us to lose our salvation we would have to redefine what Eternal life means correct? Because idk the last time I heard the word Eternal it meant FOREVER!

Not to mention in order to lose our salvation we would have to lose the Holy Spirit. Which God promised would be with us FOREVER (John 14:16) (! Again with that forever/eternal word... must be the meaning of forever has changed in the last 2,000 years...)

So to say that you can lose your salvation is calling God a liar and if you cannot trust God who can you trust? If we cannot trust scripture than who can we trust? Just like if Christ was never raised from the dead our faith is in vain if we do not and cannot trust the promises of God than our faith is in vain as well. God has NEVER failed go keep a promise yet, never has, and never will. When Jesus said in Revelation 3:5 that those who are victorious (Born again. John uses the same terminology in 1 John 5:4) he will NEVER erase them from the book of life (curses there's that never, eternal, forever word again!) but will acknowledge our name before God the Father and his Angel's as righteous! Tell me, if we can never be erased from the book of life and are declared righteous just... how can we lose our salvation again?

These points and examples are just some of the verses in the bible that speak about the security of the born again believer.

In order for a "Christian" to "lose" their salvation is if they were never born again and had proper faith to begin with with and therefore were never saved. It takes the Holy Spirit to be saved, yes? I think we can all agree on that. A proper faith will always have repentance,works,dying bvb to self, and ultimately sanctification. If those things are absent from your life it's about time you started rethinking your faith. If all of those things are present in your life than have peace! You are saved and Hod has promised to give you a new body when he returns. We seek Jesus Christ as a way OUT of our sin problem not to remain living in sin forever.

If we abide in Him, God will never let go of us, but we are always free to let go of Him, to stop abiding whenever we please.

The message is to go “to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people” (Revelation 14:6), but not everyone will accept the invitation. Some will even turn to God but then will turn away. “The Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith” (1 Timothy 4:1). How can you depart from the faith unless you were first in the faith?

Sanctification is a life-long process .... and during our lives ... we choose to continue to follow Him ... or not ... choice .... we always have it.

Continuous relationship with Him .... or not.

Follow the Lamb .... every single day. Amen.

Neostarwcc · Apr 30, 2020

Lost4words said:
Has Judas lost his salvation?

No, he didn't lose his salvation because Judas was never saved to begin with. Nowhere in scripture does it mention that he had any kind of real faith in Jesus Christ or that he was ever saved whereas it makes several announcements of the other 11 apostles (and Paul's) salvation. Judas was all mouth and no heart. He was a thief who when poked and prodded with just a little bit of money betrayed his "master" without guilt or conscience.

Scripture, instead of saying that Judas had faith called him "The Son of Perdition", cursed from the very moment he was born and it would have been better for him had he not been born at all. Why? Because he willingly not only stole from God with an evil heart but he BETRAYED God something that could be viewed by God as the biggest crime a man could commit. You don't think that Judas isn't going to get punished by God the worst out of any other human being? Scripture seems to indicate so.

Scripture only gives records of him being an evil and crooked apostle who only joined Christ in the first place because it was easy and convenient from him to steal from the poor and it was a profitable venture for him. He was consumed with greed and only wanted more and more money for himself.

An example of Judas today would be a person who only pretends to have faith in Christ. They'll declare faith but their only ambition to "joining" Christ in the first place is to make money. Case and point a lot of the false teachers today that say that they can save you or that they can get Jesus to heal X and Y for money. And Christians fall for it all the time because they're uneducated. Or that they've seen Christ and claim that he said something that was against the scriptures to make "new converts because the bible is wrong and is not the token to salvation. Their $149.99 book is." These kinds of people will have eternal destines similar to Judas because, they make God sick to his stomach. Remember God said you cannot serve both God and money. You have to be willing to abandon your love of money and serve God. You have to consider your money, God's money because in reality, it is.

Judas was the most wicked man who ever lived and to be completely honest? I feel sorry for him. He had repentance at the end of his life when he killed himself but according to Jesus he probably had the chance at salvation but was too proud to bring his repentance to God and instead killed himself where there would be no more chance at salvation he was from the moment he was born, lost. Because God knew his actions and that he would NEVER repent.

Scripture also shows that after Christ's resurrection he appeared to Judas. I can't even imagine how Judas must have felt when he realized the error of his ways and that Christ, really was who he said he was. He had betrayed God and there's no way out.

Yeah... I feel really sorry for him.

Neostarwcc · Apr 30, 2020

gospels said:
It is God who gives salvation and enters into a covenant relationship. No one can do anything to lose their salvation unless God annuls what He gave to that person. It is like both parties should accept the divorce for it to be lost but God almost doesn't.

Amen! Coming to God with a repentant heart and realizing that there literally, is no way out of your situation but the sacrifice that Christ did, is the source of your salvation.

Only God can save a person. We may think that we can "force" a person into salvation but this is a lie. God has to be willing to unharden a person's heart and save them. Just like he hardened Pharaoh's heart thousands of years ago he hardens the hearts of humanity too. All of our hearts were hardened at one point too. It is God that unhardens our hearts and allows us to see, that there IS a God out there. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no other God but him and we have sinned against him each and every day of our lives and deserved to be punished for those sins.

I've seen too people barely thanking God for salvation and just take his sacrifice for granted (Or don't believe it and scoff at it). But, we should thank God everyday! Why? Let's say a human being lives for 60 years (Which seems to be the average lifespan of a human these days) That's 21,900 days. Let's say throughout their life they commit 1 sin every day (Which is conservative many of us commit many sins in a day and sin while we are even in our mother's womb). So that means that each and every person alive commits at least 21,900 sins in their lifetime. There are approximately 7.8 billion people alive today and our population only grows each and every year. That means that people alive right now at this moment will commit at least 170 trillion 820 billion sins over the course of their lifetimes. Not only did God die for THOSE sins (Which should be thanks enough) but God died for ALL of the sins that humanity has ever sinned and will sin! Do you know how many hundreds and hundreds of billions (If not trillions) of people have walked this Earth? God has forgiven and died for Quintillions and Quintillions of sins and is willing to let them all go punished because the price has been paid for ALL of them! And I was being conservative. Only God knows exactly how many sins he has died for but, it's a massive number.

Yet, nobody thanks him except for his sheep. Scripture doesn't say, but I really hope one day ALL of humanity will thank him for what he's done. Because, he didn't have to. He did it out of an act of love because God loved us beyond anything else he ever has made. It is beyond our comprehension just how much God loves us. Yet, who out here feels unloved? Like they're alone and nobody cares about them?

The Bible says that God cares about the TINNIEST of details in each and every human's life! So you could go to God with the tiniest of problem, and he would listen intently to your problem and care about it and about you, PERFECTLY! I don't know of any human being in existence that would be willing (Or able) to do that for another human being. We're greedy, selfish, and only care about numero uno.

GospelS · Apr 30, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Amen! Coming to God with a repentant heart and realizing that there literally, is no way out of your situation but the sacrifice that Christ did, is the source of your salvation.

Only God can save a person. We may think that we can "force" a person into salvation but this is a lie. God has to be willing to unharden a person's heart and save them. Just like he hardened Pharaoh's heart thousands of years ago he hardens the hearts of humanity too. All of our hearts were hardened at one point too. It is God that unhardens our hearts and allows us to see, that there IS a God out there. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no other God but him and we have sinned against him each and every day of our lives and deserved to be punished for those sins.

I've seen too people barely thanking God for salvation and just take his sacrifice for granted (Or don't believe it and scoff at it). But, we should thank God everyday! Why? Let's say a human being lives for 60 years (Which seems to be the average lifespan of a human these days) That's 21,900 days. Let's say throughout their life they commit 1 sin every day (Which is conservative many of us commit many sins in a day and sin while we are even in our mother's womb). So that means that each and every person alive commits at least 21,900 sins in their lifetime. There are approximately 7.8 billion people alive today and our population only grows each and every year. That means that people alive right now at this moment will commit at least 170 trillion 820 billion sins over the course of their lifetimes. Not only did God die for THOSE sins (Which should be thanks enough) but God died for ALL of the sins that humanity has ever sinned and will sin! Do you know how many hundreds and hundreds of billions (If not trillions) of people have walked this Earth? God has forgiven and died for Quintillions and Quintillions of sins and is willing to let them all go punished because the price has been paid for ALL of them! And I was being conservative. Only God knows exactly how many sins he has died for but, it's a massive number.

Yet, nobody thanks him except for his sheep. Scripture doesn't say, but I really hope one day ALL of humanity will thank him for what he's done. Because, he didn't have to. He did it out of an act of love because God loved us beyond anything else he ever has made. It is beyond our comprehension just how much God loves us. Yet, who out here feels unloved? Like they're alone and nobody cares about them?

The Bible says that God cares about the TINNIEST of details in each and every human's life! So you could go to God with the tiniest of problem, and he would listen intently to your problem and care about it and about you, PERFECTLY! I don't know of any human being in existence that would be willing (Or able) to do that for another human being. We're greedy, selfish, and only care about numero uno.

Awesome. Thanks for sharing.

4hope · Apr 30, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Amen! Coming to God with a repentant heart and realizing that there literally, is no way out of your situation but the sacrifice that Christ did, is the source of your salvation.

Only God can save a person. We may think that we can "force" a person into salvation but this is a lie. God has to be willing to unharden a person's heart and save them. Just like he hardened Pharaoh's heart thousands of years ago he hardens the hearts of humanity too. All of our hearts were hardened at one point too. It is God that unhardens our hearts and allows us to see, that there IS a God out there. He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no other God but him and we have sinned against him each and every day of our lives and deserved to be punished for those sins.

I've seen too people barely thanking God for salvation and just take his sacrifice for granted (Or don't believe it and scoff at it). But, we should thank God everyday! Why? Let's say a human being lives for 60 years (Which seems to be the average lifespan of a human these days) That's 21,900 days. Let's say throughout their life they commit 1 sin every day (Which is conservative many of us commit many sins in a day and sin while we are even in our mother's womb). So that means that each and every person alive commits at least 21,900 sins in their lifetime. There are approximately 7.8 billion people alive today and our population only grows each and every year. That means that people alive right now at this moment will commit at least 170 trillion 820 billion sins over the course of their lifetimes. Not only did God die for THOSE sins (Which should be thanks enough) but God died for ALL of the sins that humanity has ever sinned and will sin! Do you know how many hundreds and hundreds of billions (If not trillions) of people have walked this Earth? God has forgiven and died for Quintillions and Quintillions of sins and is willing to let them all go punished because the price has been paid for ALL of them! And I was being conservative. Only God knows exactly how many sins he has died for but, it's a massive number.

Yet, nobody thanks him except for his sheep. Scripture doesn't say, but I really hope one day ALL of humanity will thank him for what he's done. Because, he didn't have to. He did it out of an act of love because God loved us beyond anything else he ever has made. It is beyond our comprehension just how much God loves us. Yet, who out here feels unloved? Like they're alone and nobody cares about them?

The Bible says that God cares about the TINNIEST of details in each and every human's life! So you could go to God with the tiniest of problem, and he would listen intently to your problem and care about it and about you, PERFECTLY! I don't know of any human being in existence that would be willing (Or able) to do that for another human being. We're greedy, selfish, and only care about numero uno.

Beanieboy · May 2, 2020

Goodhuman said:
Salvation (the christian one) is soul's transformation to new heavenly creature. If you make sin you lose it, your soul get transformed back to normal human (unsaved).

You no longer sin, then? Or did you lose your salvation

Beanieboy · May 2, 2020

SPF said:
The question isn't really whether or not a person can "lose" their Salvation. Nobody can lose their Salvation. The question is whether or not after a person has been forgiven, redeemed, and sealed with the Holy Spirit.... can they then commit apostasy and willingly choose to reject their Salvation. Nobody just "oops" and loses their Salvation.

I love when Christians tell people to Repent and Sin No More!!! but admit that they still sin sometimes, but the don't do it willingly.

Seriously?? You make a conscious choice to lie, and most people do it several times a day.

However, "not lying" isn't following Jesus as much as actively loving your neighbor is.

Do I think God cares that I "didn't kill anyone" and walking around like I'm holy? Or is he happier that I have gone grocery shopping for my elderly neighbors who couldn't go themselves.

Yes, we all stumble, but if I treat everyone I encounter as Christ himself, and offer them food if they are hungry, etc, I have followed him.If I don't, when he says, "I was hungry and you would not feed me" are you going to only be able to say..."and...and...never stole from you, so there's that..."

There is something I wonder about. When I was in my late teens, I was dealing with the realization of my sexual orientation. What I heard from the church is that I was an abomination, and that God himself hated me, and I should be put to death. So, the message conveyed, because I was already full of self loathing and shame, was that God hated me, I deserved to die, and became suicidal. 10 years later, I was working at a crisis line, and a 16 year old boy had a gun and was going to kill himself. He went to his priest and told h he was gay, and his priest told him it would be better if he were dead than gay, so I had to talk him down, and put the gun down.

So, when Judgement comes, such people will see how they misrepresented God, his love for us, and the sinful burden of implying or leading one to suicide, were condemning of a group of people, unfairly, imo, yet forgiving of themselves.

Do those people lose their salvation? Maybe, because anyone that would mislead someone so willingly had never really followed Christ - a goat, who says, "but didn't I work all these miracles in your name?"

Yep. And completely missed the point.

But I believe if one doesn't have salvation, that hell is where they are purified so they can enter Heaven. I don't believe you go to an eternity of hell.

Dorothy Mae · May 3, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Instead of this being yet another thread out of billions on how you can or cannot lose your salvation, let's take a look at what would have to happen for you to lose your salvation. To answer that question we have to examine how a person is saved.

This is disingenuine as this is another long piece one how you cannot lose salvation.

The bible says that we are are saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jeaus Christ which Paul describes the Gospel quite well in 1 Corrinthians 15:1-8). Other verses that say that we are saved by grace through faith are Ephesians 2:8-9, Roman's 10:9, John 3:16, Romans 1:16, John 5:24, 1 John 5:13, Titus 3:5, Acts 16:30-31, and there are more but I think cannot think of them at the moment).

Leave the faith, no longer believe and this no longer applies. Faith is not an once in the past event.

The Bible says that there is not one person who ever lived that cannot be saved (Isaiah 50;2).

The bible also says that when a person comes to Christ and places their faith in him that they are a new creation (2 Corrinthians 5:17). For a born again Christian to lose their salvation God would have to somehow undo our new creation. Something that NO verse in the Bible says that God will do.

New can also turn to evil and Jesus said that state of that man is worse than the unbeliever.

A Christian is redeemed and when they are born again they are born of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). They are declared Justified and Righteous to God (Roman's 5:1, 2 Corrinthians 5:21) For our salvation to be lost God would have to break his promise of one day redeeming us when our Lord returns and he would have go declare us unrighteous (even though we were bought by the perfect blood of Jesus Christ and this is an impossibility as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:12) Peter also calls our inheritance "reserved in heaven for us as an inheritance that can never blemish,perish, or fade away) so, this is impossible.

If you continue in sin, open rebellious defiant sin, there no longer remains a sacrifice.

Paul also talks about when we are born again we are marked with a seal by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Here you have to completely change the scritpure to fit your theology which is a real and consistant fruit of this theology. The verse does not say "marked with a seal (of some kind)but seal WITH the HS, who is a person who can be grieved or quenched, that is, a person who LEAVES.

for God to take away our salvation he would have to break this seal and break this security in Christ Which is the complete opposite of what a seal means in the Bible. See the seals of the tribulation scrolls in Revelation or click here for a definition of what a seal means in the Bible and where the word seal is used in the Biblehttps://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/seal/

As you did not see, the seal IS the HOly SPirit and seals, by the way, in the Bible and elsewhere CAN BE BROKEN.

Finally if a Christian could lose their salvation than Paul, Peter, and John lied to us and our Christian faith is built amongst a web of lies for the reasons I gave above. The apostle John talked nothing short of eternal security in Christ, Peter did, and so did Paul. Not only that but the writer of Hebrews did as well in Hebrews 10:10.

As you can see, they promised so such thing. You had twist the scripture or add to it to get this theology. That in itself shows something of the fruit of this theology.

ist (who many Christian's believe to be God in the Flesh) lied as well. Jesus promises in John 6:37-40 that not ONE of those the Father gives him will be lost. He again promises in John 10:9 that he is the gate and whoever enters through him WILL be saved. See the beginning of John 10 until John 10:9 to fully understand just what Christ is talking about here.

Judas was lost and was given to Christ. YOu assume every believer is given to Christ. There is not reason to think this.

He also says in John 10:28-30 that he gives his sheep (Born again Christians) Eternal life. He promises that nobody can take them out of Gods hand (not even themselves to claim that is to claim that somehow we are more powerful than God plus if somebody could freely walk out of Gods hand dont you think he would have mentioned it in his promise meant to comfort his believers?) He also says that his sheep will NEVER perish!

True but if you leave as the Bible says happens, "fall away from the faith" you left on your own. No one snatched you but you decided the price was too high as Jesus said would happen. YOu were given the gift of eteranl life and you threw it away. Happens.

In order for us to lose our salvation we would have to redefine what Eternal life means correct? Because idk the last time I heard the word Eternal it meant FOREVER!

Ah, we all die in this life so it is not now as far as the body goes. One would have redefine what death is to get to your position.

Not to mention in order to lose our salvation we would have to lose the Holy Spirit. Which God promised would be with us FOREVER (John 14:16) (! Again with that forever/eternal word... must be the meaning of forever has changed in the last 2,000 years...)

He promised that to the disciples and his word tells US not to act in such a way that the HS leaves us.

So to say that you can lose your salvation is calling God a liar and if you cannot trust God who can you trust? If we cannot trust scripture than who can we trust? Just like if Christ was never raised from the dead our faith is in vain if we do not and cannot trust the promises of God than our faith is in vain as well. God has NEVER failed go keep a promise yet, never has, and never will. When Jesus said in Revelation 3:5 that those who are victorious (Born again. John uses the same terminology in 1 John 5:4) he will NEVER erase them from the book of life (curses there's that never, eternal, forever word again!) but will acknowledge our name before God the Father and his Angel's as righteous! Tell me, if we can never be erased from the book of life and are declared righteous just... how can we lose our salvation again?

The Bible talks about people being blotted out of the book of life. ANd youneed to drop the if we do not believe as you do we are calling God a liar bit. It is really low.

These points and examples are just some of the verses in the bible that speak about the security of the born again believer.

In order for a "Christian" to "lose" their salvation is if they were never born again and had proper faith to begin with with and therefore were never saved. It takes the Holy Spirit to be saved, yes? I think we can all agree on that. A proper faith will always have repentance,works,dying bvb to self, and ultimately sanctification. If those things are absent from your life it's about time you started rethinking your faith. If all of those things are present in your life than have peace! You are saved and Hod has promised to give you a new body when he returns. We seek Jesus Christ as a way OUT of our sin problem not to remain living in sin forever.

I know this theology. The last bit means you yourself NEVER KNOW IF YOU ARE SAVED because if you fall away in ten years, you were not really saved today. That means that every OSAS can never know if they are saved until the end where they know they are dying and did not fall away.

Beanieboy · May 3, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
This is disingenuine as this is another long piece one how you cannot lose salvation.
Leave the faith, no longer believe and this no longer applies. Faith is not an once in the past event. New can also turn to evil and Jesus said that state of that man is worse than the unbeliever.If you continue in sin, open rebellious defiant sin, there no longer remains a sacrifice. Here you have to completely change the scritpure to fit your theology which is a real and consistant fruit of this theology. The verse does not say "marked with a seal (of some kind)but seal WITH the HS, who is a person who can be grieved or quenched, that is, a person who LEAVES.
As you did not see, the seal IS the HOly SPirit and seals, by the way, in the Bible and elsewhere CAN BE BROKEN.
As you can see, they promised so such thing. You had twist the scripture or add to it to get this theology. That in itself shows something of the fruit of this theology. Judas was lost and was given to Christ. YOu assume every believer is given to Christ. There is not reason to think this.
True but if you leave as the Bible says happens, "fall away from the faith" you left on your own. No one snatched you but you decided the price was too high as Jesus said would happen. YOu were given the gift of eteranl life and you threw it away. Happens.
Ah, we all die in this life so it is not now as far as the body goes. One would have redefine what death is to get to your position.
He promised that to the disciples and his word tells US not to act in such a way that the HS leaves us.
The Bible talks about people being blotted out of the book of life. ANd youneed to drop the if we do not believe as you do we are calling God a liar bit. It is really low.

I know this theology. The last bit means you yourself NEVER KNOW IF YOU ARE SAVED because if you fall away in ten years, you were not really saved today. That means that every OSAS can never know if they are saved until the end where they know they are dying and did not fall away.

I understand your reasoning, and while I am ok to agree to disagree, I am always left wondering:
Is there some intent on making people doubt their salvation, or feeling unsure as to whether they have somehow accidentally done something to make God turn away from them, or just doubt the Salvation of Christ itself?

I asked Jesus into my heart when I was about 6, but I was already Christian, remember talking to God as early as 4, long conversations for my age, was raised praying, so it came naturally. Then I asked Jesus into my heart again at about 8, you know, just in case it didn't take, or maybe Jesus was busy. Them again at 10. I was baptized with the HS at 18, speaking in tongues, and suddenly understood. God loves us, and you ask Jesus into your heart, he comes. He brings his love. But his love is pure. He doesn't leave any time you sin, or none of us would be saved.

We all consciously sin. We choose to lie, probably every day. The devil didn't make you do it. You rationized it: You wanted to save face, or you just didn't feel like going to work, and hey, you never take sick days, so what's a little lie? It was an exaggeration in the job interview, not a lie, not really.

That is Satan's temptation, and you are making a conscious choice.

But to make oneself feel better, you say that you follow all the commandments, yiu tithe 10%, go to church every Sunday. You thank God that you are not those* people, that tax collector over there!" who has his head bowed and says, "Forgive me, a lowly sinner."

Why does that sound so familiar?

I can't tell yiu how many times I have had a a Christian say or scream that I'm going to hell. What the Holy Spirit has taught me is the words have no power if I have faith.

And sadly, that's exactly the person the Spirit asks me to speak to, those a bit over confident in their righteousness, to the point of actually thinking they have the power to tell others who does and does not have salvation, and that their judgement will be harsh, just as their judgement of others was harsh.

Like walking into a lion's den.

Dorothy Mae · May 3, 2020

Beanieboy said:
I understand your reasoning, and while I am ok to agree to disagree, I am always left wondering:
Is there some intent on making people doubt their salvation, or feeling unsure as to whether they have somehow accidentally done something to make God turn away from them, or just doubt the Salvation of Christ itself?

That is NOT what I believe or anyone I know who rejects OSAS. It is not what the Bible teaches.

I asked Jesus into my heart when I was about 6, but I was already Christian, remember talking to God as early as 4, long conversations for my age, was raised praying, so it came naturally. Then I asked Jesus into my heart again at about 8, you know, just in case it didn't take, or maybe Jesus was busy. Them again at 10. I was baptized with the HS at 18, speaking in tongues, and suddenly understood. God loves us, and you ask Jesus into your heart, he comes. He brings his love. But his love is pure. He doesn't leave any time you sin, or none of us would be saved.

The problem might have been asking Jesus into your heart isn’t biblical. Repenting of sin is as well as being filled with the Holy Spirit is. Except the asking Jesus into heart part, your story resembles mine. I was talking to God as a child. I repented of sin at a young age but didn’t know about salvation. Then at 16 I was filled with the Holy Spirit. I don’t recall ever wondering if I was saved once I learned what it was.

We choose to lie, probably every day.

We don’t in the culture I live in.

The devil didn't make you do it. You rationized it: You wanted to save face, or you just didn't feel like going to work, and hey, you never take sick days, so what's a little lie? It was an exaggeration in the job interview, not a lie, not really.

God won’t allow me to do
that.

But to make oneself feel better, you say that you follow all the commandments, yiu tithe 10%, go to church every Sunday. You thank God that you are not those* people, that tax collector over there!" who has his head bowed and says, "Forgive me, a lowly sinner."

Why does that sound so familiar?

Who are you talking about?

I can't tell yiu how many times I have had a a Christian say or scream that I'm going to hell. What the Holy Spirit has taught me is the words have no power if I have faith.

Woah! What kind of christians are these?? Man are they off!! I wouldn’t even consider that accusation against you for an instant and think they are big time wrong!

And sadly, that's exactly the person the Spirit asks me to speak to, those a bit over confident in their righteousness, to the point of actually thinking they have the power to tell others who does and does not have salvation, and that their judgement will be harsh, just as their judgement of others was harsh.

May He mightily bless you.

Like walking into a lion's den.

I bet. I’m not one of those and admire you’re willingness to do that. Those kind won’t be fun to talk to at all.

Please know I appreciate your testimony. Rarely do I talk to someone who started to walk
with God as a child.

Beanieboy · May 3, 2020

After I wrote that, my family called me on Zoom, and I kept thinking, "oh, no!! I wrote "you" as in the general you, but to say "one" seems clunky, overly formal and stiff, but was worried you personally would read it and think it was an atrack or judgement on you, personally, which it wasn't. And you responded in love. Thank you for that. I'm impressed, and hope it wasn't misunderstood.

The story was the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, in which Christ honors the tax collector, who humbles himself before God, but not the Pharisee, whose self righteousness boasts to God, and condemns the tax collector. For the people of the time, i would be like Christ honoring a thief but condemning a self righteous priest.

And I wonder if we are arguing semantics, because I don't get up every day, thinking, "I'm going to go sin. Bwah hah hah haaaaah." I can't imagine why someone with the idea to rob people as a professional thief or in a gang, would really care about religion or salvation.

But I do, however, stumble. Have I lied to save face because I was embarrassed to admit to truth to a friend? Yes, but part of "repentance" for me was not simply asking God for forgiveness, but going to that friend, admitted that I lied, ask him for forgiveness, explain why I did it, and then tell him I won't do it again.

But because I occasionally stumble, I need Christ. If I lived a pure Christ-like life, I would demand others to be perfect like me, and condemn them when they are human and make mistakes, and not be able to relate, so, not really granting forgiveness. This was the problem in the parable of the Pharisee and the tac collector. The Pharisee went boastfully before God, was very proud of how holy he perceived himself, and let others know how holy he was, to the point of condemning others that didn't meet his misguided standard of obedience and holiness. Christ only honors the tax collector, who humbles himself before God, and asks for forgiveness he knows he doesn't deserve.

For the people of the time, it would be like Christ condemning a self righteous priest, but honoring a thief. His disciples were shocked by the story.

Samaritans were thought to be worse than the "sinners," and when the man is beaten, the Levite and priest, possibly honoring the commandment of cleanliness on their way to Temple, pass over the beaten man, while the "sinner," the Samaritan, helps a total stranger, pays for a room in an in and cares for the man. So, while the Levite and priest were obedient to the Law, they didn't love their neighbor as themselves. They followed the law to a fault of understanding the call to love their neighbor as themselves takes priority. And knowing that, those who taught the Scripture were the first to condemn Christ for healing in the Sabbath, or accuse him of healing by power of Satan. They knew the law. They usedit to burden and condemn others, and probably easily forgave themselve, and loved being thought holy by the people. Christ called them out.

I don't see people as sinners, as sin itself, but in know I, too have faults I need to work on, I can humble myself, and see others as my neighbor, on the same level, even humble myself before them.

But the question I was trying to understand is, understanding how one would evangelize "God loved us in creation, we sinned, he sent Christ to us, we killed him, a d Christ's sacrifice paid the price giving us salvation and eternal life in heaven.

Or you may lose it..

If I were a person coming to Christ, it would make me question if the resurrection would assure me salvation, or if God would turn on me for some rule, known or unknown, that I broke. I would live in fear and doubt. I would have difficulty having a strong faith feeling like one misstep, and God will shrug indifferently at Judgement and give me a "rules are rules" and condemn me to hell. And it would make me question a God that wouldn't be at least as forgiving as I am.

What it would entail to lose your salvation.

Well-Known Member

See in the dark

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Contributor

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is Love

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Similar threads