The Anytime Rapture View Chart

tranquil

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Have you heard of child abuse? I think what you did could well be called "chart abuse" :wave:.

I think you need to make your own chart, not revamping mine, because what you did trying to adopt my chart to your thinking - looks like you have two parallel universes going on. One for what you label "faithful" and another for what you label "unfaithful". The result being total conflicts and confusion.

Get a program like Paintshop Pro. Learn how to use it (will take some time) and make your own chart(s). And then start a new thread, of your Revelation chart, reflecting your view.

But here is a better question

In your chart you put 'false messianic age'. If someone calls himself the Jewish messiah, doesn't that qualify him as having 'called himself God'? therefore, the man of sin calls himself God before the breaking the covenant in the middle of 7 years.

From the Jewish perspective, their position is that the messiah is not God. From the Christian perspective, the messiah is God.

According to 2 Thessalonians 2
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
The 'day of the Lord' arrives when the man of lawlessness calls himself God. (6th Seal/ 1st Trumpet)

The man who called himself the messiah confirms the covenant (Mosaic covenant, presumably). This covenant gets broken 3.5 years later. (from the start of the covenant is the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses).
 
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Douggg

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17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

The KJV reads differently.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


That verse is referring to a specific point in the Day of the Lord. In the 5th seal are the souls who have been martyred during the great tribulation calling out for Jesus to avenge their blood.

In the sixth seal, Jesus is revealed in heaven, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14, him having a sickle), garments dipped in blood of the martyred tribulation saints - about to avenge their deaths.
 
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Douggg

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In your chart you put 'false messianic age'. If someone calls himself the Jewish messiah, doesn't that qualify him as having 'called himself God'?
No, the Jews don't believe that the messiah is anything but a man.

From the Judaism 101 site...

"The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought."
 
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Douggg

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The 'day of the Lord' arrives when the man of lawlessness calls himself God. (6th Seal/ 1st Trumpet)
The sixth seal is near the end of the 7 years. I show it at the bottom of my chart.

Differently, the person's claim to be God (the Transgression of Desolation) takes place several years before the sixth seal event.

One of the reason's I made this chart is because verbiage alone is inadequate in communicating these complex timeline issues.


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Douggg

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The man who called himself the messiah confirms the covenant (Mosaic covenant, presumably). This covenant gets broken 3.5 years later. (from the start of the covenant is the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses).
I agree in principle. He breaks the covenant a little before the exact midpoint.

I agree the beginning of the testimony time of the two witnesses coincides with the day the false messiah confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant. By him making a big speech from the temple mount.
 
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tranquil

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The KJV reads differently.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


That verse is referring to a specific point in the Day of the Lord. In the 5th seal are the souls who have been martyred during the great tribulation calling out for Jesus to avenge their blood.

In the sixth seal, Jesus is revealed in heaven, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14, him having a sickle), garments dipped in blood of the martyred tribulation saints - about to avenge their deaths.

The 5th Seal martyrs are not killed during the great tribulation, they are martyrs from throughout the centuries.

From your point of view, why are they not raptured? Why will you get raptured and not them?

We will be protected by being gathered.
Rev 3
10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.
The people of Revelation 7, the 144,000 & the great multitude are 'coming out of the great tribulation'.

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

If the great tribulation starts at the 5th Seal, why were they not raptured?

People are protected starting at the 1st Trumpet, the 'gathering'.
 
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Douggg

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The 5th Seal martyrs are not killed during the great tribulation, they are martyrs from throughout the centuries.

From your point of view, why are they not raptured? Why will you get raptured and not them?
The rapture takes place before the great tribulation. Them in the fifth seal are martyred after the great tribulation begins.

They either became Christians after the rapture takes place. Or were Christian before the rapture, but who mocked the notion of the rapture to escape the great tribulation, and were not taken, imo.

If the great tribulation starts at the 5th Seal, why were they not raptured?

People are protected starting at the 1st Trumpet, the 'gathering'.
The great tribulation does not start at the 5th seal, but before. The seals don't pinpoint the beginning of the great tribulation. The riders on the black horse and pale horse ride during the great tribulation.

I show those riders on my chart, on the great tribulation line of 1335 days. The great tribulation begins when the AoD is placed in the temple on day 1185 on the chart.

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nolidad

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Confirming of the covenant (it not a signing btw) for 7 years is not the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The rapture has to take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection, and 1Thessalonians5:2-3 saying peace and safety before the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

I didn't say who the 7 year 70th week is for. btw, it is not tribulation period. That is a misnomer got started by the pre-trib holders. Shortened for....pre-tribulation (period). But what they really mean is pre-70th week.

Most of the first portion of the 70th week, will be a false messianic age - will not be tribulation. Which exposes the flaw in the pre-trib terminology. They still could be right in their pre-70th week timing, but also could be wrong because they don't tie the rapture to the beginning of the Day of the Lord, at least not properly.

The 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem. The Day of the Lord will begin when the Jews, Israel, will be saying peace and safety, thinking they have entered the messianic age.

The rapture can happen any time between now and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. It may be pre-trib (pre-70th week) or it may not. It has to happened within the blue shaded area. The rapture could happen today, in the next few seconds.

You should read the minor prophets and compare their terminology of the 70 the week with the NT writers. They are near identical.

I Agree the rapture takes place before the 70th week begins.

Actually he whole 70th week of Daniel is a time of tribulation! It is the 2nd half (after the antichrist rises from the dead ands the prophet issues the mark) that is called the great tribulation.

The 1st 5 seals are pre-trib events. It is the antichrist going out to conquer the 3 of the ten world rulers. The other three horsemen are the normal results of war.
 
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nolidad

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@ nolidad Make a chart nolidad of the pre-trib rapture view featuring the beginning of the Day of the Lord, and start a thread. 2Thessalonians2:4 is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

To you it is, but the bible has it pegged when the Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel, and we call it signing, because nearly all treaties, pacts and covenants are signed by rulers!
 
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Douggg

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To you it is, but the bible has it pegged when the Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel, and we call it signing, because nearly all treaties, pacts and covenants are signed by rulers!
What is your textual proof that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is the beginning of the Day of the Lord ?
 
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Douggg

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Actually he whole 70th week of Daniel is a time of tribulation! It is the 2nd half (after the antichrist rises from the dead ands the prophet issues the mark) that is called the great tribulation.
Actually not. What takes place before the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, that makes the time of the 7 years up to that point - tribulation?
 
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keras

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Actually not. What takes place before the 2Thessalonians2:4 act, that makes the time of the 7 years up to that point - tribulation?
Right, the first half of the final 7 years before Jesus returns, will be a peaceful time. The GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls only starts after the Temple is desecrated. As Daniel 9:27 & 11:30-31 tell us.

Douggg, the main reason why I have to reject your chart, is your placement of the Sixth Seal.
Basically, you have violated the Words of Jesus in Revelation, to shift that world changing event to just before the Return.
The Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, is described in over 100 prophesies. It is the event that will commence all the end times.

The Sixth Seal will happen before the 7 year treaty is made and also the G/M attack must happen before then, as well.
Please look and consider carefully, this logical and scriptural sequence.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg, the main reason why I have to reject your chart, is your placement of the Sixth Seal.
Basically, you have violated the Words of Jesus in Revelation, to shift that world changing event to just before the Return.
No I have not.

On my chart, where the sixth seal is placed, at the end of the 1290 days, is annotated as corresponding to Matthew 24:29.

And the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven as corresponding to Matthew 24:30a.

Here are those verses...

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [the 1290 days] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Revelation 6:12-14]

30a And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [Revelation 6:15-16] and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and 30b they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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Douggg

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The Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, is described in over 100 prophesies. It is the event that will commence all the end times.
Where you are making a mistake is in your understanding of the breath of the Day of the Lord. Once it begins, it goes into eternity, and never ends.

The end times began when the Jews came out of the nations, and Israel became a nation again in the land in 1948.

The Day of the Lord begins, after the 7 years begin, and in the middle part of it when the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice activity, and then goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.
 
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keras

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On my chart, where the sixth seal is placed, at the end of the 1290 days, is annotated as corresponding to Matthew 24:29.
But the Sixth Seal, Revelation 6:12-17 and Jesus Return, Matthew 24:29-31, are two separate events.
Proved by how the sun and moon will be darkened at the Return, but at the SS, it will shine 7 times brighter, Isaiah 30:26 and the moon bright blood red.
Revelation 6:15-16 is not a 'sign' of the Lord, it is how everybody can see the approaching mass of flaming ejecta from the sun and are consequently terrified.
Jeremiah 6:24-26 News of them [the coming disaster] has reached us and our hands hang limp, agony grips us, like a woman in labour. Do not go outside for terror is spread all around. In an instant, the despoiler is upon us.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 Every man grips his sides and every face turns pale. How awful is that Day. It is a time of trouble for the descendants of Jacob, but some will be rescued out of it.

Ezekiel 7:17 Every hand hangs limp, fright will cause their knees to be wet with urine.

Ezekiel 21:5-7a All shall know that I, the Lord has drawn My sword.... groan bitterly until you collapse. All hearts will melt, all hands hang limp, all courage will fail.
Where you are making a mistake is in your understanding of the breath of the Day of the Lord. Once it begins, it goes into eternity, and never ends.
Your wrong belief.
Several prophesies make it clear that the Day of the Lords fiery wrath is just a single day. Zechariah 3:9, Isaiah 29:5-8, Revelation 18:8
There is another Day; The great Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:14
 
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keras

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Verbiage alone is inadequate to convey complicated timeline issues like the end times events.
You don't realize that many people, esp women cannot comprehend charts. Your "chart' just looks like so much scribble to them.
Here is a sequence of events starting from where we are now. [Which your 'chart' doesn't do.]
Complete with proper explanations and scriptural support:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3, +
It will be the Sixth Seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Deuteronomy 32:34-43
It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27
Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10
They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

Soon after this, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- Christian Israelites who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21

The regathering of Christian Israel, all those who have kept faithful. Matthew 24:30-31
The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus and His resurrected saints.

The final attack against the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21

The Great White Throne judgement, and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation chapters 20:11-15 & 21:1-7
 
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Douggg

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But the Sixth Seal, Revelation 6:12-17 and Jesus Return, Matthew 24:29-31, are two separate events.
Proved by how the sun and moon will be darkened at the Return, but at the SS, it will shine 7 times brighter, Isaiah 30:26 and the moon bright blood red.
The description in the text of Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 are the same.

Regarding how the sun becomes 7 times brighter and the moon darkening - is like asking me how God can make a tree?

In Revelation 16:8-9 addresses the issue of the sun. Followed by darkness in Revelation 16:10-11. In Revelation 6:12 at the time of the shakening of the powers of heaven the moon becomes as blood.
 
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Douggg

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You don't realize that many people, esp women cannot comprehend charts. Your "chart' just looks like so much scribble to them.
esp women cannot comprehend charts? just looks like so much scribble to them?


Complete with proper explanations and scriptural support:
Put it all on a timeline chart. Get a woman to help you, if your run into problems on charting.
 
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keras

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The description in the text of Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 are the same.
Are you blind?
Matthew 24:29... the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give any light.....
Revelation 6:12...the sun turned black and the moon red as blood....
Regarding how the sun becomes 7 times brighter and the moon darkening - is like asking me how God can make a tree?
But we do know just how the Sixth seal can and will happen. I have shown it on this forum, why can't you understand it?
In Revelation 16:8-9 addresses the issue of the sun.
The Fourth Bowl is plainly another event from the Sixth seal. Mixing them up is quite wrong.
But we see that you have no qualms about making scripture suit your notions.
Put it all on a timeline chart. Get a woman to help you, if your run into problems on charting.
I am not a misogynist. I just know that a chart is confusing for some people and simply doesn't provide all the information required.

I provided a plain list of events, detailing what is prophesied to happen. Are you unable to address or refute it?
 
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