Whatever Happened to Forever?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 28, 2020

HARK! said:
No longer? It never was. See Genesis, and Exodus.

Actually it's throughout the Torah; and don't forget Ruth.

Then why do you insist Jesus is only for Israel??

HARK! · Apr 28, 2020

NBB said:
So Hark in your gospel you have to become a jew and do the law to be saved? that is nuts...
Who believies in him, shall be saved, jew or not.

There is a difference between converting to Judaism and coming into the family of Israel in Messiah.

We don't obey him for what we can get out of him. We obey him because we love him.

I we believe is him, our actions will show it. We'll follow him.

HARK! · Apr 28, 2020

visionary said:
Jerusalem fails in many aspects.

Revelation 17:4 ...'And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.' Israel nor any of its religious components wear red scarlet robes.

Revelation 17:15 ...'And he saith unto me, the waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.' ... So the waters represent the people and nations around the world. And if you sit upon something, then you are being supported by that object. So this is a church that has worldwide support from all different people and nations. Not something that Israel or Judaism has.

Revelation 17:2 ...'the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.' Wine being the doctrines. Judaism is not the largest faith in the world. There is only two religions that hold sway over the nations of the world, and the non religious atheists' of communism. But since the harlot is "religious" with control over nations, it does narrow the playing field as to who Revelation is talking about.

Israel, while guilty of many things, is not identified by the above things that God revealed in Revelation as characteristics of the harlot. Revelation 17:5 ...'And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.'

These are very astute observations; yet there is another fact which becomes increasingly difficult to argue; that is the timeline:

The temple fell in 70 C.E.

The bulk of traditional sources date the book to the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian (AD 81–96), which evidence tends to confirm.[4]

Book of Revelation - Wikipedia

Since it was written after the fall; it either prophesizes of what is to come; or it's just plain kooky, by not only being cryptic about what just happened, but presenting it in future tense.

HARK! · Apr 28, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Then why do you insist Jesus is only for Israel??

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

NBB · Apr 28, 2020

HARK! said:
There is a difference between converting to Judaism and coming into the family of Israel in Messiah.

We don't obey him for what we can get out of him. We obey him because we love him.

I we believe is him, our actions will show it. We'll follow him.

I understand there is an 'spiritual' israel like the bible says. But christians are not required to circumcise and do all that. I don't know even if people from israel are required by God to do it, i really don't.

HARK! · Apr 28, 2020

NBB said:
I understand there is an 'spiritual' israel like the bible says. But christians are not required to circumcise and do all that. I don't know even if people from israel are required by God to do it, i really don't.

We are called to circumcision as we are called to baptism. These are acts of belief

.
(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

NBB · Apr 28, 2020

HARK! said:
We are called to circumcision as we are called to baptism. These are acts of belief

.
(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

You probably have an answer ready for this but, Paul says gentiles christians shouldn't get circumsiced. And i think this is clear.

HARK! · Apr 28, 2020

NBB said:
You probably have an answer ready for this but, Paul says gentiles christians shouldn't get circumsiced. And i think this is clear.

Paul circumcised Timothy.

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

NBB · Apr 28, 2020

HARK! said:
Paul circumcised Timothy.

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

That doesn't reduce the other words he said to nothing wouldn't you think.

NBB · Apr 28, 2020

Circumsicion is something for the descendants of Abraham, not for gentiles, the bible says is a sign for the jews, and i even don't know if jews are actually required by God to do it in this age.

HARK! · Apr 28, 2020

NBB said:
Circumsicion is something for the descendants of Abraham, not for gentiles,

All those of Abraham's bloodline are of Israel. YHWH's covenant is with Israel.

(CLV) Ro 9:6
Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;

(CLV) Ro 9:7
neither that Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac shall your seed be called."

(CLV) Ro 9:8
That is, that the children of the flesh, not these are the children of God, but the children of the promise is He reckoning for the seed.

One doesn't have to be of Abraham's bloodline to be Abraham's seed

For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

(CLV) Ga 3:29
Now if you are Christ's, consequently you are of Abraham's seed, enjoyers of the allotment according to the promise.

NBB said:
the bible says is a sign for the jews,

There were no Jews when YHWH made this covenant with Abraham.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

NBB said:
and i even don't know if jews are actually required by God to do it in this age.

Jews are no different than Pagans if they are not in the covenant that YHWH makes exclusively with Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Dorothy Mae · Apr 28, 2020

HARK! said:
There is a difference between converting to Judaism and coming into the family of Israel in Messiah.

We don't obey him for what we can get out of him. We obey him because we love him.

I we believe is him, our actions will show it. We'll follow him.

What is obedience to you?

Jan001 · Apr 28, 2020

visionary said:
Jerusalem fails in many aspects.

Revelation 17:4 ...'And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.' Israel nor any of its religious components wear red scarlet robes.

Revelation 17:15 ...'And he saith unto me, the waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.' ... So the waters represent the people and nations around the world. And if you sit upon something, then you are being supported by that object. So this is a church that has worldwide support from all different people and nations. Not something that Israel or Judaism has.

Revelation 17:2 ...'the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.' Wine being the doctrines. Judaism is not the largest faith in the world. There is only two religions that hold sway over the nations of the world, and the non religious atheists' of communism. But since the harlot is "religious" with control over nations, it does narrow the playing field as to who Revelation is talking about.

Israel, while guilty of many things, is not identified by the above things that God revealed in Revelation as characteristics of the harlot. Revelation 17:5 ...'And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.'

The priests who served the temple in Jerusalem wore the scarlet robes.

Exodus 39:1
[ Making the Vestments for the Priesthood ] And of the blue and purple and scarlet stuff they made finely wrought garments, for ministering in the holy place; they made the holy garments for Aaron; as the Lord had commanded Moses. 2 And he made the ephod of gold, blue and purple and scarlet stuff, and fine twined linen.

Jews from every nation were dwelling in Jerusalem. Yet these Jews all heard what was being said in their own native languages.

Acts 2:4-6
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Revelation 17:1
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters,

Revelation 17:15
And he said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

Much of the Book of Revelation was written to the early Christians to show them what must soon take place.

Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

The harlot was not Israel. The harlot was the great city Jerusalem (because of her evil religious leaders) and it was destroyed in 70 A.D. for its abominations. We know this for sure because Scripture shows us that this great city is where our Lord was crucified. The harlot Jerusalem was destroyed because her religious leaders rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. The harlot Jerusalem was destroyed because she (her religious leaders) murdered God's prophets and wise men and saints.

Matthew 23:29-35
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Mark 8:31
[ Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection ] And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Revelation 11:1-8
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if any one would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Jan001 · Apr 28, 2020

HARK! said:
All those of Abraham's bloodline are of Israel. YHWH's covenant is with Israel........

There were no Jews when YHWH made this covenant with Abraham. ..........

Jews are no different than Pagans of they are not in the covenant that YHWH makes exclusively with Israel.

There were no Israelites when God made His covenant with Abraham.

visionary · Apr 28, 2020

Jan001 said:
The priests who served the temple in Jerusalem wore the scarlet robes.

Exodus 39:1
[ Making the Vestments for the Priesthood ] And of the blue and purple and scarlet stuff they made finely wrought garments, for ministering in the holy place; they made the holy garments for Aaron; as the Lord had commanded Moses. 2 And he made the ephod of gold, blue and purple and scarlet stuff, and fine twined linen.

Jews from every nation were dwelling in Jerusalem. Yet these Jews all heard what was being said in their own native languages.

Acts 2:4-6
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Revelation 17:1
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters,

Revelation 17:15
And he said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

Much of the Book of Revelation was written to the early Christians to show them what must soon take place.

Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

The harlot was not Israel. The harlot was the great city Jerusalem (because of her evil religious leaders) and it was destroyed in 70 A.D. for its abominations. We know this for sure because Scripture shows us that this great city is where our Lord was crucified. The harlot Jerusalem was destroyed because her religious leaders rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. The harlot Jerusalem was destroyed because she (her religious leaders) murdered God's prophets and wise men and saints.

Matthew 23:29-35
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Mark 8:31
[ Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection ] And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Revelation 11:1-8
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if any one would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

70 AD Jerusalem down... 80-90 AD Revelation written.... that doesn't work

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
What is obedience to you?

Following Yahshua's example.

HARK! · Apr 29, 2020

Jan001 said:
There were no Israelites when God made His covenant with Abraham.

Correct. The covenant of Abraham is perpetuated through Israel.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 29, 2020

visionary said:
70 AD Jerusalem down... 80-90 AD Revelation written.... that doesn't work

Except it was written in 60 something AD. When Jesus said SOON, he meant soon and not millennial later.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 29, 2020

HARK! said:
Following Yahshua's example.

Pretty vague. Lots claim that one. How do you measure this in your life?

visionary · Apr 29, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Except it was written in 60 something AD. When Jesus said SOON, he meant soon and not millennial later.

The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE.
Book Of Revelation | Apocalypse! FRONTLINE | PBS
Book of Revelation - Bible Survey | GotQuestions.org

Whatever Happened to Forever?

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Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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