The new covenant ?

Davy

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Did Paul called himself a Jew?

You tell me...

Acts 22:3
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

KJV
 
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ralliann

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This is certainly a topic worth discussing.

I think we should consider the Hebrew meaning for words when discussing Old Testament.

Sojourner = toshab; A dweller, esp. as a native citizen, and a tempory inmate or mere lodger, resident alien:- foreigner, inhabitant, stranger.

Stranger = geyr; a foreigner:- Alien, sojourner, stranger.

Sojourneth = guwr; To turn aside from the road (for a lodging or any other purpose) sojourn (as a guest) to shrink, fear (as in a strange place) also to gather for hostility (as be afraid) abide, assemble, be afraid, dwell, fear, gather (together) inhabitant, remain, stand in awe.

We can have the discussion about God and whether HIS intent regarding HIS Words, "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.", was only speaking to humans with Hebrew DNA or not later.

But the point of my post on this thread is to ask about what "works of the Law" Paul is referring to when speaking about forgiveness or justification. How can we understand what "Works of the LAW" were being pushed onto the new converts for atonement if we don't look at the Law God gave the Levites for atonement?

Right now I think it prudent to understand what LAW was "ADDED" and what was it ADDED to, in Gal. 4.

One thing is for certain. Abraham was forgiven his sins. But not by the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" ADDED 430 years later.
A lot of these things need to be visited. Just like you say above about Abe's sins being for given. I am not convinced that would even be a proper concept to apply. Was Abrahams sin even taken into account prior to the law?
Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Or the notion of breaking a command without having any guilt (accountability). Such is the case with the priests working in the temple?
Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

And another term for stranger is those which are strangers of the priest priesthood, and from going within the temple itself. All other tribes not of Levi or sons of Aaron.
stranger=zuwr
02114 זור zuwr zoor
a primitive root; v; [BDB-266a, BDB-266b] {See TWOT on 541}
AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77
1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated
Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
Ex 30:9 Ye shall offer no strange <02114> incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.
Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange <02114> fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Le 22:12 If the priest’s daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things. {a stranger: Heb. a man a stranger }
Le 22:13 But if the priest’s daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father’s house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father’s meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.
Nu 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange <02114> fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest’s office in the sight of Aaron their father.
Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.
Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest’s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
 
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You tell me...

Acts 22:3
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

KJV

Here is what that means in English, " “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today."
 
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pescador

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A lot of these things need to be visited. Just like you say above about Abe's sins being for given. I am not convinced that would even be a proper concept to apply. Was Abrahams sin even taken into account prior to the law?
Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Or the notion of breaking a command without having any guilt (accountability). Such is the case with the priests working in the temple?
Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

And another term for stranger is those which are strangers of the priest priesthood, and from going within the temple itself. All other tribes not of Levi or sons of Aaron.
stranger=zuwr
02114 זור zuwr zoor
a primitive root; v; [BDB-266a, BDB-266b] {See TWOT on 541}
AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77
1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated
Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
Ex 30:9 Ye shall offer no strange <02114> incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.
Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange <02114> fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Le 22:12 If the priest’s daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things. {a stranger: Heb. a man a stranger }
Le 22:13 But if the priest’s daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father’s house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father’s meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.
Nu 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange <02114> fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest’s office in the sight of Aaron their father.
Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.
Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest’s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Since Scripture was written in the common languages of their time: ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, why can't you write your post in common English instead of mixing today's English with early 17th Century English? Also, why are you lifting verses out of context? No scripture was ever written in unconnected bits and pieces (there were no chapters and verses in the originals); and what is <02114> supposed to mean? It doesn't mean a darn thing when you just cut-and-paste a lot of meaningless stuff. If you have something to say, why not just say it?
 
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pasifika

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You tell me...

Acts 22:3
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

KJV
Okay got it. Thanks
 
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ralliann

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Since Scripture was written in the common languages of their time: ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, why can't you write your post in common English instead of mixing today's English with early 17th Century English? Also, why are you lifting verses out of context? No scripture was ever written in unconnected bits and pieces (there were no chapters and verses in the originals); and what is <02114> supposed to mean? It doesn't mean a darn thing when you just cut-and-paste a lot of meaningless stuff. If you have something to say, why not just say it?
I have nothing more to say to you. I tried but aint goin here
 
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pescador

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I have nothing more to say to you. I tried but aint goin here

At last, common English! By "aint" and "goin", I assume you meant "ain't" and "goin'". See, modern English is not too complicated; just keep working at it.
 
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Studyman

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A lot of these things need to be visited. Just like you say above about Abe's sins being for given. I am not convinced that would even be a proper concept to apply. Was Abrahams sin even taken into account prior to the law?
Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

That is a good question.

Was there sin in the world in Abraham's time?

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen. 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

It would be hard to make the case that sin didn't exist in the world before Abraham, if the Scriptures are the source. Sin was most certainly imputed to both Adam and Eve, and Cain, and the world of Noah's time. HAM even "looked on the nakedness of his father" that him and his 2 brothers knew was a sin.

Gen. 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

So there can be no doubt sin was imputed and the Law worketh God's wrath long before Abraham was even born. Since all men have sinned, and Abraham wasn't even called until he was 75 years old, it is perfectly Biblical to believe that HE sinned in his life, and that his sin was forgiven. Wouldn't this be the very definition of "Imputing Righteousness"? If he was not guilty of sin and not in need of atonement, then there would be no reason for him to be "Justified" either by belief/Faith in God, or by the Atonement Laws added 430 years later.

Or the notion of breaking a command without having any guilt (accountability). Such is the case with the priests working in the temple?
Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

This is part of the point I was making in the first place. Abraham had God's Statutes, Laws and Commandments, but not the Levitical Priesthood. The Levite Priests you speak of here didn't have an inheritance with the rest of Abraham's Children. The Laws you speak of are part of the Covenant God made with Levi on Israels behalf 430 years after Abraham.


And another term for stranger is those which are strangers of the priest priesthood, and from going within the temple itself. All other tribes not of Levi or sons of Aaron.
stranger=zuwr
02114 זור zuwr zoor
a primitive root; v; [BDB-266a, BDB-266b] {See TWOT on 541}
AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77
1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated
Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

Yes, this is true. No other human besides a Levite by blood could participate in the Priesthood duties, or even read from the "Book of the Law". No one but a Levite could even touch the Ark of the Covenant.


Ex 30:9 Ye shall offer no strange <02114> incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.
Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange <02114> fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

Lev. 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.


Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Le 22:12 If the priest’s daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things. {a stranger: Heb. a man a stranger }
Le 22:13 But if the priest’s daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father’s house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father’s meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.
Nu 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange <02114> fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest’s office in the sight of Aaron their father.
Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.
Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest’s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

So yes, the Priesthood had a different inheritance, and was given Specific Laws that no other human could perform. Including performing Sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins "til the Seed should come".

That is why the Priesthood Laws had to change in order for Jesus to take over these Priesthood duties. He was a Stranger and according to the Covenant God made with Levi, He could not partake of the Priesthood unless there was a "change in the law".

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; (Stranger to the Priesthood) of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Levi had a Priesthood Covenant with God given on Mt. Sinai, 430 years after Abraham. Abraham had God's Laws, but not this "ADDED" LAW. But the Levites corrupted God's Covenant.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32:26-28)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

So what did the Christ do?

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Levites who Corrupted the Covenant God made with them on Mt. Sinai on Israels behalf) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

No more Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement and no more requirement to go to a Levites Priest to hear the Word of God.

A New Priesthood Covenant with Jesus as our High Priest.
 
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ralliann

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That is a good question.

Was there sin in the world in Abraham's time?

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen. 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

It would be hard to make the case that sin didn't exist in the world before Abraham, if the Scriptures are the source. Sin was most certainly imputed to both Adam and Eve, and Cain, and the world of Noah's time. HAM even "looked on the nakedness of his father" that him and his 2 brothers knew was a sin.
Thanks for your response. I am just gonna run some of my thoughts by you is all. So I won't be addressing your whole post. Just looking at some things here.

Yes sin did exist or as scripture says... but not imputed.. Not sure what imputed means, but I think it means called to account yes?
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Just some food for thought. I am going to be very narrow in my point about being punished for sin. There is IMO a distinction made in dieing a natural death that all men die. So that is what I think vs 14 speaks of in Adam. But their is also dieing in your sins, where your "sin" causes God to take your life as a result (cutting your life short).
I think in Abrahams time before the law and before it is imputed, that men were indeed called to account for sin.

***Clearly God is going to call into account sin here in this instance.
Here are somethings I am noticing here...
1. Justice and judgement
2. God is the Judge of all the earth
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham continues to speak to God concerning destroying the city and ends with ten in the city.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

We know only Lot and his daughters escaped out of the city.
But notice that God is going down there to see if the GREAT CRY he heard was indeed true. Yet only Lot and his house were righteous in the city, not even ten people.
Nobody was left in the city to cry unto God, that was yet alive. Yet it was A GREAT CRY, as though many were crying out to God.
This makes me think of this...
Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Was it all the righteous that had been slain, their blood was crying out to God?
I do not see this as imputation, this is something different don't you think?
Like this?
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

And see here
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant: or, testament }



















.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The original religion God gave to Israel through Moses was NOT... to Jews of the "house of Judah" only. God offered His covenant to ALL the children of Israel, not just the Jews of the southern kingdom.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) says the name 'Jew' came from the tribe of Judah, and it is the name the remnant that returned from the 70 years Babylon captivity used, as also the strangers dwelling among them in Judea did. I believe that label began earlier though, prior to the their going captivity to Babylon. I believe it began sometime after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17.

The Two Kingdoms:
1. "house of Judah" or "kingdom of Judah" under Solomon's son Rehoboam; capital city at Jerusalem and only included the southern lands of Judea = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and eventually Levi, and also some small numbers that refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship and instead trekked south to join with Judah.

2. "house of Israel", or "kingdom of Israel" under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. Capital city at Samaria in the northern lands. This was made up of ten tribes of Israel, the majority of Israelites.

God removed the ten northern tribes of the "kingdom of Israel" first. Only the house of Judah was left in Judea. About 120 years after that, He removed the Jews captive to Babylon for 70 years, and only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem. Thus their claim to be the only Israel since the ten tribes have been lost. During that Babylon captivity is when Judah mixed greatly with the Canaanites (Ezra 9). That is when their leaven traditions crept in, which is where Judaism originates.

You never answered my question.

You said: "Thus 'Judaism' is a JEWISH religion of the Jews, NOT the original religion God gave to all Israel through Moses."

Yeshua Himself was a Jew from Judah...So is Yeshua part of the original religion God gave to all Israel at Sinai??
 
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Davy

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You never answered my question.

You said: "Thus 'Judaism' is a JEWISH religion of the Jews, NOT the original religion God gave to all Israel through Moses."

Yeshua Himself was a Jew from Judah...So is Yeshua part of the original religion God gave to all Israel at Sinai??

Yeah, I showed you. You simply choose not to listen, even as you're not willing to listen now. You cannot see.

You can't use some silly idea that just because Christ was born of the tribe of Judah, that the old covenant God gave Israel through Moses wasn't accepted by Him. Christ rejected the religion of man called Judaism, which is about the traditions of the Jews that came out of the Babylon captivity. That is where the Babylonian Talmud came from, and that is what Judaism follows.
 
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Davy

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="Davy, post: 74929824, member: 404357"]Paul isn't teaching the law there in Romans 3 either. I choose to NOT skip these verses that you did skip...

I didn't skip those verses, you did. They are relevant to the Scripture that you did post, and are even essential to the flow, especially Paul''s phrase "the righteousness of God without the law".


I'm not skipping any Scriptures.

Well you did, no use in denying it now.

I understand the doctrine you are promoting. That Abraham was righteous "without" the Word of God, even before God gave him a commandment, instruction, told him to change his ways etc. I understand that you have been convinced that Abraham was righteous "without" God's Word, Law, Command, etc.

If that's what you think, then that explains why you originally left out those previous Romans 3 verses. The old covenant was not given to Abraham, there was NO covenant made when Abraham believed by Faith on God's Promise. The Gospel Promise was always FIRST, before the giving of the law through Moses. That is what I have ALWAYS said. But you obviously keep TRYING to change what I said, which shows your dishonest character.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yeah, I showed you. You simply choose not to listen, even as you're not willing to listen now. You cannot see.

You can't use some silly idea that just because Christ was born of the tribe of Judah, that the old covenant God gave Israel through Moses wasn't accepted by Him. Christ rejected the religion of man called Judaism, which is about the traditions of the Jews that came out of the Babylon captivity. That is where the Babylonian Talmud came from, and that is what Judaism follows.

I see just fine and what I saw was you evading the question...and no that was the question to YOU since He was a JEW and YOU said "Judaism is the Jewish religion of Jews, not the original religion Moses got at Sinai"...well, Yeshua was a Jew.
 
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Studyman

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Thanks for your response. I am just gonna run some of my thoughts by you is all. So I won't be addressing your whole post. Just looking at some things here.

Yes sin did exist or as scripture says... but not imputed.. Not sure what imputed means, but I think it means called to account yes?
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Jam. 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

When was there a time in Paul's life that there was no Law of God? Can the same not also be said for Abraham and Sodom? Is sin imputed to those who are "without" God definition of sin? But what about after God has shown it to them?

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Is this what Paul is speaking about when he said "But the Commandment came and I died"?

Just some food for thought. I am going to be very narrow in my point about being punished for sin. There is IMO a distinction made in dieing a natural death that all men die. So that is what I think vs 14 speaks of in Adam. But their is also dieing in your sins, where your "sin" causes God to take your life as a result (cutting your life short).
I think in Abrahams time before the law and before it is imputed, that men were indeed called to account for sin.

I do not believe God's Law didn't exist in Abraham's time. I understand that he practiced a religion, the religion of his father. But he was "called" out of that life unto another like we all have. Just because Paul and Abraham were "without God's Law" for part of their life, doesn't mean God's Law didn't exist IMO.

***Clearly God is going to call into account sin here in this instance.
Here are somethings I am noticing here...
1. Justice and judgement
2. God is the Judge of all the earth
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham continues to speak to God concerning destroying the city and ends with ten in the city.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

We know only Lot and his daughters escaped out of the city.
But notice that God is going down there to see if the GREAT CRY he heard was indeed true. Yet only Lot and his house were righteous in the city, not even ten people.
Nobody was left in the city to cry unto God, that was yet alive. Yet it was A GREAT CRY, as though many were crying out to God.
This makes me think of this...
Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Was it all the righteous that had been slain, their blood was crying out to God?
I do not see this as imputation, this is something different don't you think?
Like this?
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

And see here
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant: or, testament }

It is written that the Holy Scriptures are "Examples" written for "our admonition".

That the things that happened to those examples, happened for us, not them.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Abel was a righteous prophet of God.

Luke 11: 50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Therefore he had the spirit of Christ in him. It wasn't Abel that Cain hated, in was the Christ in Able. Truly they hated the Christ before they hated His Children.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

You referenced Heb. 12 in your last sentence. This chapter is all about the "examples" or "compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses", written for our admonition.

Examples Abel didn't have.

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Heb. 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, (another example Abel didn't have) who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Thank you for the upbeat, sincere reply. It certainly is "food for thought".
 
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ralliann

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Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Jam. 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

When was there a time in Paul's life that there was no Law of God? Can the same not also be said for Abraham and Sodom? Is sin imputed to those who are "without" God definition of sin? But what about after God has shown it to them?

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Is this what Paul is speaking about when he said "But the Commandment came and I died"?
I myself have thought that Paul was speaking about becoming an adult as bar mitzvah. Becoming a son of the commandments. Taking on the yoke of the kingdom, or whole law.
Some scripture to express this notion
the faith of a child?
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Babes are circumcised as a work of (faith) their fathers.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

I think Paul here may be speaking of from his birth he was not subject to any yoke, being a babe (circumcision 8 days old). But as he grew he became subject to at least one command to obey and honour his parents.
The child is disciplined and trained up by his parents. He is not subject to Gods discipline until he reaches the age of accountability before God to keep the whole law.
So as he became an adult and held to account before God in his own right, Prior to that he was accountable to his parents. Since God commands children this one command. As he grows becomes accountable to more, until all.
Keeping it short and to the point.
 
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ralliann

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Yeah, I showed you. You simply choose not to listen, even as you're not willing to listen now. You cannot see.

You can't use some silly idea that just because Christ was born of the tribe of Judah, that the old covenant God gave Israel through Moses wasn't accepted by Him. Christ rejected the religion of man called Judaism, which is about the traditions of the Jews that came out of the Babylon captivity. That is where the Babylonian Talmud came from, and that is what Judaism follows.
Actually it is the traditions of the sect of the Pharisees Jesus spoke of. Which sect also sat in the seat of moses as Judges in the high court (Sanhedrin) . Which court ruled
with the the authority of the priests (Sadducees).
 
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Studyman

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I myself have thought that Paul was speaking about becoming an adult as bar mitzvah. Becoming a son of the commandments. Taking on the yoke of the kingdom, or whole law.
Some scripture to express this notion
the faith of a child?
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Babes are circumcised as a work of (faith) their fathers.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

I think Paul here may be speaking of from his birth he was not subject to any yoke, being a babe (circumcision 8 days old). But as he grew he became subject to at least one command to obey and honour his parents.
The child is disciplined and trained up by his parents. He is not subject to Gods discipline until he reaches the age of accountability before God to keep the whole law.
So as he became an adult and held to account before God in his own right, Prior to that he was accountable to his parents. Since God commands children this one command. As he grows becomes accountable to more, until all.
Keeping it short and to the point.

Interesting perspective.

But didn't the Christ of the Bible tell both Paul and Abram to "deny themselves", leave their father and follow him? So Spiritually Speaking, when was Paul or Abram a "babe in Christ"? Was it when they were 2 years old? Or was it after God pointed out to them that they were following "another voice" as Eve was deceived into following?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

"children, obey your parents in the Lord"

Also Paul makes a point on circumcision as well.

Rom. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Duet 10:Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

I love how you posted those scriptures together. And i agree that we start as babes, then grow in wisdom and understanding. But do you think the Scriptures imply this happens only if the child learns obedience by the things he suffers? If the child hears the instruction, but rebels and refuses to be a "doer" of the instruction, then how can he grow? If the same child "Rebels to the end" as opposed to "Endure to the end", what will come of that child?

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not a good place to be.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Like Abram :)

“So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"

And again;

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Great reply ralliann, truly makes those " who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory" think about HIS Word in a better "Light".

Thank you for the discussion.
 
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ralliann

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Interesting perspective.
Thanks but one that I am not sure is correct lol. But the view I have of the passage is also due to the surrounding passages. How I am looking at those I don't think you agree with. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding terms or things you have said so far. So that is why I have been very narrow in my responses. LOL if I attempted to address your other comments I am afraid the post would have been enormous enough to nauseate us both. Plus I am not sure I would have addressed then well enough to be all that clearly written to weave it to these points I am now. But will say this I think Paul was speaking as a Jew under the law of Moses specifically. Since as I mentioned before, I think there is a difference between the death men die in Adam (all men from Adam), and the death men die as a direct condemnation and judgement of sin, cutting his life short.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Here is what I am talking about.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Even though we do not sin like Adam did we die.
How did Adam sin? God gave him a direct command which he disobeyed (lacking faith in the punishment)

Adam's life doesn't seem to have been cut short, rather he was cut off from living forever. The death all men die
.But didn't the Christ of the Bible tell both Paul and Abram to "deny themselves", leave their father and follow him?
Acts tells us of Abraham
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.

Abrahams father and brother (and nephew lot) all went together to Charran. His brother died there...How he ended up with his nephew Lot.

4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
Thank you for the discussion as well
 
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Davy

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Actually it is the traditions of the sect of the Pharisees Jesus spoke of. Which sect also sat in the seat of moses as Judges in the high court (Sanhedrin) . Which court ruled
with the the authority of the priests (Sadducees).

You can go back farther than that in Bible history, surely...

Return of a remnant of the house of Judah to Jerusalem from the 70 years Babylon captivity:

Ezra 2:58-59
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
KJV

Ezra 8:20
20 Also of the Nethinims, whom David and the princes had appointed for the service of the Levites, two hundred and twenty Nethinims: all of them were expressed by name.
KJV

Ezra 2:61-62
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
KJV

Canaanites that tricked Joshua into making a pact not to destroy them:

Josh 9:25-27
25 And now, behold, we are in thine hand: as it seemeth good and right unto thee to do unto us, do.
26 And so did he unto them, and delivered them out of the hand of the children of Israel, that they slew them not.
27 And Joshua made them that day hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation, and for the altar of the LORD, even unto this day, in the place which he should choose.
KJV


The leftover Canaanites which Israel was not able to destroy per God's command:

1 Kings 9:20-21
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
KJV

The Nethinims were temple servants, given to the Levitical priesthood to handle menial tasks. The Nethinims were the leftover Canaanites that dwelt among Israel. By the time of the Babylon captivity, some of them had become priests among Israel. 1 Chronicles 2:55 reveals the Kenites which were a people from the land of Canaan, became the scribes of Israel. Is it any wonder then, that the scribes and many of the Pharisees hated Jesus???



 
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