What is the "great tribulation"?

Nathan Arrand

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I am looking at 2 verses particularly. Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14

The words "great tribulation" seem to conjure up, to me, from what I've read, falling stars from heaven, mountains and islands shaking, tsunamis, earthquakes, meteors hitting earth etc.
However when I look at the verses around these two verses, "great tribulation" seems to infer great, severe, brutal persecution and martyrdom for believers and not "natural" disasters.

Let me explain a little more specifically.

Matthew 24:21 "great tribulation" - the verses around this suggest, to me, that when the abomination of desolation comes, believers must flee, hide, escape because of worldwide, severe, spine chilling tribulation and martyrdom. That is the great tribulation.

Revelation 7:14 "great tribulation" - This verse seems to refer back to the fifth seal, the martyrs under the altar who were wearing WHITE robes (Revelation 6:9-11). I say this because John asks "Who are these people robed in WHITE, and where did they come from?" The reply - believers coming out of the great tribulation (Revelation 7:13,14). Also in Revelation 7:16 these believers who came out of the great tribulation had not been killed by earthquakes, tsunamis, falling stars etc but they died from hunger, thirst etc (7:16) - could be from hiding, locked in prison etc

Please, any guidance as to what the "Great Tribulation" actually refers to?

Thank you.
 

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I am looking at 2 verses particularly. Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14

The words "great tribulation" seem to conjure up, to me, from what I've read, falling stars from heaven, mountains and islands shaking, tsunamis, earthquakes, meteors hitting earth etc.
However when I look at the verses around these two verses, "great tribulation" seems to infer great, severe, brutal persecution and martyrdom for believers and not "natural" disasters.

Let me explain a little more specifically.

Matthew 24:21 "great tribulation" - the verses around this suggest, to me, that when the abomination of desolation comes, believers must flee, hide, escape because of worldwide, severe, spine chilling tribulation and martyrdom. That is the great tribulation.

Revelation 7:14 "great tribulation" - This verse seems to refer back to the fifth seal, the martyrs under the altar who were wearing WHITE robes (Revelation 6:9-11). I say this because John asks "Who are these people robed in WHITE, and where did they come from?" The reply - believers coming out of the great tribulation (Revelation 7:13,14). Also in Revelation 7:16 these believers who came out of the great tribulation had not been killed by earthquakes, tsunamis, falling stars etc but they died from hunger, thirst etc (7:16) - could be from hiding, locked in prison etc

Please, any guidance as to what the "Great Tribulation" actually refers to?

Thank you.
The great tribulation and abomination (a metaphor Jesus used comparing the event similar to the one Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple by 161 bc) Happened in AD 70. Jesus said it was the worst tribulation ever or ever to be. It was Jewish only.

Christians, however, have great tribulation for the entire New Covenant era as mentioned in Revelation.
 
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Nathan Arrand

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Hi, thanks for the thoughts.

I struggle with Matthew 24:20 referring to AD70 because Jesus was asked 2 questions by His disciples.
1. When will these things be (destruction of the temple)
2. What is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age.

How did I separate out which question Jesus was answering?
1. He would probably answer the first question first and the second after he had answered the first
2. I note the use of "this" meaning the closer event and "that" being the more distant event. The Scriptures also use "these" and "those", referring to the earlier event and the later/more distant event

If we read Matthew 24 - verse 2 "these things", verse 4 "these things", verse 6 "these things", verse 8 "these things". Then we come to verse 16 "those things", verse 19 "those things", verse 21 "that time", verse 22 "those days" x 2, verse 29 "those days".

So from my analysis the "great tribulation" fits into "those days/that time/those days etc all meaning the second question - "What is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" So I cannot see it being 70 AD but the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

Am I misreading how Jesus answered their 2 questions?

Thanks.
 
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Our battle against this world and the great Babylon trying to rob us of our faith and taking us in exile because of our sins. The world trying to get us to be with their anti-Christs instead of true Christ.

The great tribulation is first and foremost spiritual, like the whole book of Revelation is in particular, and occurs within our own inner world of being. The great tribulation is typified by much depression and inner persecution after true faith living within our hearts. Where religious, world taught rules and regulations control us, instead of walking in the freedom of our Lord. However the end result is that we step in God's Rest as we overcome the world and its ways and live a life of freedom with Christ as King of The Heart.

i share you a poem i wrote when i survived the great tribulation in my life and found peace with the Son of God for all of my troubled existence.

Peace.

Armageddon.

In my inner world life died everywhere,
famine taking what sword had left behind.
Brim and hailstones flattening what stood up,
no escape from the carnage I could find.

Awed I saw Jesus the evil fight,
turning my world into a battleground.
I saw billows of smoke rising up high,
rolling thunder through my world rebound.

I watched as scorpions paraded my soul,
stinging those godless in their lust.
Massive grasshoppers devouring all my good,
fierce horses trampling me to dust.

I saw much of my greenery burn-up,
fleets of cargo ships sadly perish.
Daily trade coming to an abrupt hold,
ungodly rulers wrong to cherish.

I saw the Dragon reigning his subjects,
watched the numbered die like flies.
I heard the false prophet's constant lying,
demons smearing God's love with lies.

It was the blood drinking prostitute,
which flabbergasted me the most.
Unfaithfulness killing God's chosen,
with fiery death she was deposed.

I saw my world's kingdom going down,
ruling Babylon fall in one day.
With two thirds of my world wiped out,
I watched true Peace coming to stay.

And so watching God's own safely at home,
I finally let my tears run dry.
Seeing Jesus arising on the clouds,
I joined the Hallelujah cry.
 
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Dave L

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Hi, thanks for the thoughts.

I struggle with Matthew 24:20 referring to AD70 because Jesus was asked 2 questions by His disciples.
1. When will these things be (destruction of the temple)
2. What is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age.

How did I separate out which question Jesus was answering?
1. He would probably answer the first question first and the second after he had answered the first
2. I note the use of "this" meaning the closer event and "that" being the more distant event. The Scriptures also use "these" and "those", referring to the earlier event and the later/more distant event

If we read Matthew 24 - verse 2 "these things", verse 4 "these things", verse 6 "these things", verse 8 "these things". Then we come to verse 16 "those things", verse 19 "those things", verse 21 "that time", verse 22 "those days" x 2, verse 29 "those days".

So from my analysis the "great tribulation" fits into "those days/that time/those days etc all meaning the second question - "What is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" So I cannot see it being 70 AD but the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

Am I misreading how Jesus answered their 2 questions?

Thanks.
This is from my personal studies and I think it will help you to position when and what happens.

I believe Matthew 24 gives several views of the same events leading up to the end. Just as the Gospels give four views of the same events. I divided the passage accordingly.

Matt. 24

First division from the time spoken until end of world 1-14

“Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains. “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. But the person who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:1–14) (NET).

Second division. The Great Tribulation, Jerusalem’s destruction fulfilled in 70 AD. Matthew 24:15–22

““So when you [present audience] see the abomination of desolation—spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. The one on the roof must not come down to take anything out of his house, and the one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:15–22) (NET)

Third division; After Jerusalem's destruction (the Great Tribulation). Christian focus continues. Christian tribulation remains until the end. Matthew 24:23–28

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Remember, I have told you ahead of time. So then, if someone says to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe him. For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” (Matthew 24:23–28) (NET)

Fourth division; Earth’s final days 29-51

““Immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But as for that day and hour no one knows it—not even the angels in heaven—except the Father alone. For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding grain with a mill; one will be taken and one left. “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom the master finds at work when he comes. I tell you the truth, the master will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave should say to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he begins to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with drunkards, then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 24:29–51) (NET)

This is also in the Mark 13 and Luke 17 parallel accounts.
 
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Nathan Arrand

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The great tribulation and abomination (a metaphor Jesus used comparing the event similar to the one Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple by 161 bc) Happened in AD 70. Jesus said it was the worst tribulation ever or ever to be. It was Jewish only.

Christians, however, have great tribulation for the entire New Covenant era as mentioned in Revelation.

Another reason I struggle with Matthew 24:21 referring to AD 70 is Matthew 24:29.
This reads "Immediately after the tribulation of those days; The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken".

Firstly it reads "immediately after" - I am asking, did stars fall from the sky and celestial powers shaken immediately after the events of 70AD? Perhaps we don't know?

Secondly, Matt 24:29 referring to the sun being darkened, moon not shedding its light, stars falling from the sky, celestial powers shaken etc lines up more or less exactly with Revelation 6:12-13 (the sixth seal)

If Matthew 24:21 "great tribulation" of persecution and martyrdom is followed immediately with the sun darkened, moon not shedding its light, stars falling from the sky, celestial powers shaken this seems, to me, to line up perfectly with the fifth and sixth seal in Revelation (martyrdom- 5th seal and sun/moon/stars - 6th seal). They happen in the same order and follow each - one after the other.

That links in Matthew and Revelation together?

My thoughts!
 
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Nathan Arrand

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Our battle against this world and the great Babylon trying to rob us of our faith and taking us in exile because of our sins. The world trying to get us to be with their anti-Christs instead of true Christ.

The great tribulation is first and foremost spiritual, like the whole book of Revelation is in particular, and occurs within our own inner world of being. The great tribulation is typified by much depression and inner persecution after true faith living within our hearts. Where religious, world taught rules and regulations control us, instead of walking in the freedom of our Lord. However the end result is that we step in God's Rest as we overcome the world and its ways and live a life of freedom with Christ as King of The Heart.

i share you a poem i wrote when i survived the great tribulation in my life and found peace with the Son of God for all of my troubled existence.

Peace.

Armageddon.

In my inner world life died everywhere,
famine taking what sword had left behind.
Brim and hailstones flattening what stood up,
no escape from the carnage I could find.

Awed I saw Jesus the evil fight,
turning my world into a battleground.
I saw billows of smoke rising up high,
rolling thunder through my world rebound.

I watched as scorpions paraded my soul,
stinging those godless in their lust.
Massive grasshoppers devouring all my good,
fierce horses trampling me to dust.

I saw much of my greenery burn-up,
fleets of cargo ships sadly perish.
Daily trade coming to an abrupt hold,
ungodly rulers wrong to cherish.

I saw the Dragon reigning his subjects,
watched the numbered die like flies.
I heard the false prophet's constant lying,
demons smearing God's love with lies.

It was the blood drinking prostitute,
which flabbergasted me the most.
Unfaithfulness killing God's chosen,
with fiery death she was deposed.

I saw my world's kingdom going down,
ruling Babylon fall in one day.
With two thirds of my world wiped out,
I watched true Peace coming to stay.

And so watching God's own safely at home,
I finally let my tears run dry.
Seeing Jesus arising on the clouds,
I joined the Hallelujah cry.
 
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Dave L

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Another reason I struggle with Matthew 24:21 referring to AD 70 is Matthew 24:29.
This reads "Immediately after the tribulation of those days; The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken".

Firstly it reads "immediately after" - I am asking, did stars fall from the sky and celestial powers shaken immediately after the events of 70AD? Perhaps we don't know?

Secondly, Matt 24:29 referring to the sun being darkened, moon not shedding its light, stars falling from the sky, celestial powers shaken etc lines up more or less exactly with Revelation 6:12-13 (the sixth seal)

If Matthew 24:21 "great tribulation" of persecution and martyrdom is followed immediately with the sun darkened, moon not shedding its light, stars falling from the sky, celestial powers shaken this seems, to me, to line up perfectly with the fifth and sixth seal in Revelation (martyrdom- 5th seal and sun/moon/stars - 6th seal). They happen in the same order and follow each - one after the other.

That links in Matthew and Revelation together?

My thoughts!
You are reading the Jewish tribulation into the Christian tribulation.
 
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Nathan Arrand

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This is from my personal studies and I think it will help you to position when and what happens.

I believe Matthew 24 gives several views of the same events leading up to the end. Just as the Gospels give four views of the same events. I divided the passage accordingly.

Matt. 24

First division from the time spoken until end of world 1-14

“Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains. “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. But the person who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:1–14) (NET).

Second division. The Great Tribulation, Jerusalem’s destruction fulfilled in 70 AD. Matthew 24:15–22

““So when you [present audience] see the abomination of desolation—spoken about by Daniel the prophet—standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. The one on the roof must not come down to take anything out of his house, and the one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:15–22) (NET)

Third division; After Jerusalem's destruction (the Great Tribulation). Christian focus continues. Christian tribulation remains until the end. Matthew 24:23–28

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Remember, I have told you ahead of time. So then, if someone says to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe him. For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” (Matthew 24:23–28) (NET)

Fourth division; Earth’s final days 29-51

““Immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “But as for that day and hour no one knows it—not even the angels in heaven—except the Father alone. For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding grain with a mill; one will be taken and one left. “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom the master finds at work when he comes. I tell you the truth, the master will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that evil slave should say to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he begins to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with drunkards, then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 24:29–51) (NET)

This is also in the Mark 13 and Luke 17 parallel accounts.

Thanks for your thoughts.
I know God is not a God of confusion. God is a God or order (Isaiah 28:26, 1 Corinthians 14:40 etc).
If Jesus' disciples asked two questions surely we can divide Jesus' reply into 2 parts - one answering His first question and the other answering His second question.
I know I am simple, but that is how I would see Jesus' reply.
 
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Thanks for your thoughts.
I know God is not a God of confusion. God is a God or order (Isaiah 28:26, 1 Corinthians 14:40 etc).
If Jesus' disciples asked two questions surely we can divide Jesus' reply into 2 parts - one answering His first question and the other answering His second question.
I know I am simple, but that is how I would see Jesus' reply.
The post on Matthew 24 I sent makes it all unmistakably clear.
 
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Nathan Arrand

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You are reading the Jewish tribulation into the Christian tribulation.

What about "these" things and "those" things.
2 Questions.
First question is "these" things. Jewish hardtimes
Second question is "those" things. Christian hardtimes
 
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Dave L

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What about "these" things and "those" things.
2 Questions.
First question is "these" things. Jewish hardtimes
Second question is "those" things. Christian hardtimes
It's all in my post. Notice Matthew reads straight through as in any bible. It's my subheadings that make it clear.
 
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Much appreciated.

I see there are many thoughts as to what the "great tribulation" refers to.
The most common understanding is that the great tribulation is tied to the time of the end and comes on the whole world. When you read Zach 14 you will note that the mount of olives is split in two to make a way of escape from the surrounding armies. A future event. Those armies are destroyed by God not man. It is my understanding that the great tribulation takes place during the reign of the beast. Who will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation in the world. The beast and his armies are destroyed by Jesus,(not man). The bowl judgments in revelation are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. When the appointed time comes, for the beasts reign has been shortened to 42 months, the Lord comes for the great battle of God almighty.

Rev 16:15 - A coming of the Lord.
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."
 
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Nathan Arrand

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It's all in my post. Notice Matthew reads straight through as in any bible. It's my subheadings that make it clear.

You have 4 parts.

I am very simplistic, like an ordinary fisherman, except a humble builder. I am also semi-retired so am getting on in years and from a third world country.

As a non-complicted simpleton I would have two parts to Jesus' exposition:

My first part is the answer to the disciples first question. Jesus answered it, firstly, then Jesus answered their second question, which is the second part of Jesus' talk.
I know where the differentiation occurs because Jesus changed from "these" things which were in close timeline to "those" things which were at the end of the age.
This happens in all the gospel accounts where it is recorded. You can also use the words "this" for the close timeline and "that" for the distant timeline to add further clarification.

The subheading of the first part is "When will the temple building be thrown down?" as per the disciples first question, and my second subheading would be "What is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" as per their second question.

The second subheading occurs from Matthew 24:15.

Sorry, I struggle with 4 parts and subheadings different to the questions asked.

Shalom and peace and blessing to you.
 
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You have 4 parts.

I am very simplistic, like an ordinary fisherman, except a humble builder. I am also semi-retired so am getting on in years and from a third world country.

As a non-complicted simpleton I would have two parts to Jesus' exposition:

My first part is the answer to the disciples first question. Jesus answered it, firstly, then Jesus answered their second question, which is the second part of Jesus' talk.
I know where the differentiation occurs because Jesus changed from "these" things which were in close timeline to "those" things which were at the end of the age.
This happens in all the gospel accounts where it is recorded. You can also use the words "this" for the close timeline and "that" for the distant timeline to add further clarification.

The subheading of the first part is "When will the temple building be thrown down?" as per the disciples first question, and my second subheading would be "What is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" as per their second question.

The second subheading occurs from Matthew 24:15.

Sorry, I struggle with 4 parts and subheadings different to the questions asked.

Shalom and peace and blessing to you.
Write something up and post it. Also, consider where Jesus says great tribulation "never has been" nor "ever shall be". "Ever shall be" removes it from the end of the world back to Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was indeed the most horrible tribulation ever if you read Josephus' history of it.
 
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Nathan Arrand

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The most common understanding is that the great tribulation is tied to the time of the end and comes on the whole world. When you read Zach 14 you will note that the mount of olives is split in two to make a way of escape from the surrounding armies. A future event. Those armies are destroyed by God not man. It is my understanding that the great tribulation takes place during the reign of the beast. Who will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation in the world. The beast and his armies are destroyed by Jesus,(not man). The bowl judgments in revelation are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. When the appointed time comes, for the beasts reign has been shortened to 42 months, the Lord comes for the great battle of God almighty.

Rev 16:15 - A coming of the Lord.
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

Thank you for your comments. I do appreciate your help. I need to settle one thing at a time. May I ask a question please?

My first question is WHAT is the "great tribulation"? Is it severe persecution/martyrdom on believers by whoever (beast, antichrist etc), or is it the catastrophes we read about in Matthew 24:29 and through large sections of Revelation or both together/all combined? Add to that is it a past event or a future event. Your thread says it is a future event which is how I read the scriptures.

Thank you.
 
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Nathan Arrand

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Write something up and post it. Also, consider where Jesus says great tribulation "never has been" nor "ever shall be". "Ever shall be" removes it from the end of the world back to Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was indeed the most horrible tribulation ever if you read Josephus' history of it.

Thanks. I agree it was a horrible period for the Jews.
I had to look at the scripture you quoted Matthew 24:21 "For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again!"

I don't see why it removes it from the end times back to AD70. I don't see why "that time" could not refer to the end times.

I would be curious to know, is there any record in history (Josephus etc), to your knowledge, that "immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not shed its light, the stars will fall from the sky and the celestial powers will be shaken". Did this happen in AD70 or immediately after - any record? Matthew 24:29 says "immediately after" - making it clear there was no long gap.

That would be very interesting to know because I have heard of nothing. That would be a help if you found anything. Thanks.
 
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Dave L

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Thanks. I agree it was a horrible period for the Jews.
I had to look at the scripture you quoted Matthew 24:21 "For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again!"

I don't see why it removes it from the end times back to AD70. I don't see why "that time" could not refer to the end times.

I would be curious to know, is there any record in history (Josephus etc), to your knowledge, that "immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not shed its light, the stars will fall from the sky and the celestial powers will be shaken". Did this happen in AD70 or immediately after - any record? Matthew 24:29 says "immediately after" - making it clear there was no long gap.

That would be very interesting to know because I have heard of nothing. That would be a help if you found anything. Thanks.
The Great Christian lasts until the end of the world. No chance of "or ever will be" after that.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi, thanks for the thoughts.

I struggle with Matthew 24:20 referring to AD70 because Jesus was asked 2 questions by His disciples.
1. When will these things be (destruction of the temple)
2. What is the sign of your coming and of the end of the age.

How did I separate out which question Jesus was answering?
1. He would probably answer the first question first and the second after he had answered the first
2. I note the use of "this" meaning the closer event and "that" being the more distant event. The Scriptures also use "these" and "those", referring to the earlier event and the later/more distant event

If we read Matthew 24 - verse 2 "these things", verse 4 "these things", verse 6 "these things", verse 8 "these things". Then we come to verse 16 "those things", verse 19 "those things", verse 21 "that time", verse 22 "those days" x 2, verse 29 "those days".

So from my analysis the "great tribulation" fits into "those days/that time/those days etc all meaning the second question - "What is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" So I cannot see it being 70 AD but the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

Am I misreading how Jesus answered their 2 questions?

Thanks.
You are right that 70 AD is not the great tribulation. These things are lining up right now. There is a huge volume of passages that describe the before and after picture of the earth and specifically Israel after these events. The abomination of desolation is still future. The man of sin in 2 Thess 2 is not revealed yet. He is the same as the beast if Rev 13 and the pompous one in Dan 7. Study yourself and lay out on a grid all the specifics mentioned. This creates cohesive timeline and if you look at current events is sure looks we are on that path.
 
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