Why did Jewish Christianity die out in the first few centuries of the church?

Ronit

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^^^ This ^^^

It's sad because you guys have to put up with persecution and prejudice even from your own genetic family for believing in Yeshua. And then to make things even harder you have to deal with regular antisemitic stereotypes and persecution from other groups.

But just remember that :

If You Are Reproached For The Name Of Christ, Blessed Are You,
For The Spirit Of Glory And Of God Rests Upon You.

On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.
• 1 Peter 4:14




Also, on a side note in Eastern Orthodoxy you can definitely see a real visual connection to The Old Testament Priests especially with the priestly vestments and use of incense :


incense.jpg


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I think the Orthodox church is beautiful. In fact my high school crush was a Serbian Orthodox :)
 
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Ronit

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I think the Orthodox church is beautiful. In fact my high school crush was a Serbian Orthodox :)
In fact I've pondered a bit. If I had to go to a church building I would want to go to an Eastern Orthodox :) So Shalom my Bretheren In Christ
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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dqhall

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Yes they did. But I just thought that the description you gave may have left a wrong impression of what happened.
I only remembered parts of Josephus’ writings. You are right about bad leadership being at fault. I can imagine Jewish Christians in the Diaspora got bullied after the fall of Jerusalem.

Nero had already started executing Christians before the war. One of the oldest church buildings known was built at Dura-Europas in Syria founded c. 230-250 AD. It was along the Euphrates in the Parthian empire outside of Roman jurisdiction.
 
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ralliann

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^^^ This ^^^

It's sad because you guys have to put up with persecution and prejudice even from your own genetic family for believing in Yeshua. And then to make things even harder you have to deal with regular antisemitic stereotypes and persecution from other groups.

But just remember that :

If You Are Reproached For The Name Of Christ, Blessed Are You,
For The Spirit Of Glory And Of God Rests Upon You.

On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.
• 1 Peter 4:14




Also, on a side note in Eastern Orthodoxy you can definitely see a real visual connection to The Old Testament Priests especially with the priestly vestments and use of incense :


incense.jpg


%25D0%2591%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B7%25D1%258B%25D0%25BC%25D1%258F%25D0%25BD%25D0%25BD%25D1%258B%25D0%25B9.jpg



.
.
These things are why I am looking to a more historical Church. The priesthood aspect reflects more of the Apostolic (Jewish) aspect of the original Church.
 
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ralliann

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I only remembered parts of Josephus’ writings. You are right about bad leadership being at fault. I can imagine Jewish Christians in the Diaspora got bullied after the fall of Jerusalem.

Nero had already started executing Christians before the war. One of the oldest church buildings known was built at Dura-Europas in Syria founded c. 230-250 AD. It was along the Euphrates in the Parthian empire outside of Roman jurisdiction.
Well I got a lot of information reading Rabbi Joseph Telushkin. I found him to be quite refreshing and thoughtful in his honesty about these things. it's called Jewish literacy. A big volume but worth the read. He even examined Josephus being considered a traitor for calling on the rebels to surrender. Was it Jeremiah that did the same? Anyway one of the old testament prophets did the same when Israel came under Judgement to be taken captive to Babylon. He said that the Rabbis say the difference is that Jeremiah called to them from inside the walls, Josephus was from outside the walls. It was just a refreshing read with his honesty.
 
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dqhall

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It hasn’t been a Jewish sect for millennia.
Jesus and his disciples were
Well I got a lot of information reading Rabbi Joseph Telushkin. I found him to be quite refreshing and thoughtful in his honesty about these things. it's called Jewish literacy. A big volume but worth the read. He even examined Josephus being considered a traitor for calling on the rebels to surrender. Was it Jeremiah that did the same? Anyway one of the old testament prophets did the same when Israel came under Judgement to be taken captive to Babylon. He said that the Rabbis say the difference is that Jeremiah called to them from inside the walls, Josephus was from outside the walls. It was just a refreshing read with his honesty.
History students may prefer Josephus to Telushkin for his valuable descriptions. Josephus gave a favorable description of Jesus and John the Baptist. God may have kept Josephus alive for a reason. I do not trust rabbis who claim Jesus blasphemed. I have looked into rabbinical commentary to get an idea about the context of the times of Jesus. I read “Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus,” by Joachim Jeremias.

You made a good point about the non-violence of Jeremiah. For his dissent Jeremiah was imprisoned in a cistern.
 
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ralliann

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Jesus and his disciples were

History students may prefer Josephus to Telushkin for his valuable descriptions. Josephus gave a favorable description of Jesus and John the Baptist. God may have kept Josephus alive for a reason. I do not trust rabbis who claim Jesus blasphemed. I have looked into rabbinical commentary to get an idea about the context of the times of Jesus. I read “Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus,” by Joachim Jeremias.

You made a good point about the non-violence of Jeremiah. For his dissent Jeremiah was imprisoned in a cistern.
Oh I have Josephus and I do look things up. But I do like to see what Judaism says about things as well. Let me give you an example of Telushkin which I wouldn't get from josephus.
Telushkin actually said that in the time of the destruction of the temple that Josephus was probably loved by the people, and Rabbi zakkai was probably hated to the point that many wanted him dead for what he did. Zakkai today is credited with saving Judaism and requesting Yavneh and it's sages from the Emperor. Not to spare Jerusalem and the temple. The kicker here is (even though he does not say it outright) it is Zakkai that supposedly escaped the city by stealth (or deceit) gained favor with the Emperor for prophesying he would be the next Emperor. He and the sages are the compilers of the Talmud and Talmudic Judaism, we see today. So basically Telushkin was admitting that he thought Josephus having done this act was the true version, and the Talmudic version a crock. I like having confirmation like that from the other side.
To me its kind of a check on any of my own biases to hear from the other side like that.
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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How can the house of Israel be non-Jewish?

Please understand that the MODERN geographic nation in the Middle East called Israel, IS NOT the "Israel mentioned in Scripture".

The "post Abrahamic covenant" Hebrew nation has always "Scripturally" been referred to as the "House of Israel", or the "12 Tribes of Israel". Abraham had a Hebrew son named Isaac, Isaac had a Hebrew son Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to Israel. Jacob/Israel had 12 Hebrew sons/tribes

The Jewish religion was a sect that organized out of the Hebrew nation.

But the Jewish religion became so focused on adhering to the "letter: of the "Law, that they completely lost perspective of the "Spirit" of the "Law".

As I understand it anyway,
Respectfully,
Lee
 
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hedrick

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I've just been reading a book by James Dunn, "Neither Jew nor Greek." He deals with this question. He speaks of how it happened than why:

The parting was slow. Even in the 4th Cent it was apparently common for Christians to celebrate the Sabbath and join in Jewish passover celebrations. The split occurred from the leadership down, not the people up.

The separation was on both sides. Narrowing standards of acceptability and calling people heretics occurred in both communities, starting in the 2nd Cent.

The final break was at the time of Constantine, in the West. In the East Jewish Christianity continued, and that was the form of Christianity when Islam get started.

While he didn't give a clear answer on why (and it's possible that a single clear answer isn't possible) the clear implication is that it was institutional pressures, the desired to clearly define one's own community as opposed to the other guy. That kind of dynamic was certainly visible during the Reformation, particularly between Reformed and Lutheran.

I should comment that there were theological reasons also, but in some sense they were self reinforcing. As the Jewish background of the NT was lost, interpretations that might have been normal in the first century now looked wrong.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Please find NT scripture that shows that only the descendants of Judah are called Jews. Would be good to show that no other Israelites were consider Jews. You need to show they thought this.

Benjamites and Levites were also called "Jews", not because of their tribal identity but because they were associated with the house of Judah and because they worshipped God according to the Jewish leadership and sects; the Sanhedrin, Levites, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. The other Israelite tribal descendants living in the region were certainly not Jews and didn't consider themselves such. In fact there was enmity between the Jews and those that remained of "the house of Israel". The Jews called them 'dogs'.
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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What would be a "Hebrew" Christian?

The King James Version, of the translation of the ancient Hebrew texts, which we know as "The Bible", has stood the test of time and scrutiny as one the most accurate translations of the ancient Hebrew texts.

If one does a computer Bible word search in the KJV Bible, one will find that the "word" "Christian" mentioned only 3 times. The first mention is used to describe Jesus' twelve disciples.

As was mentioned earlier by OLDWISEGUY, Scripture states that Jesus was sent only to the "lost sheep of the House of Israel". Because of this, ALL of Christ's disciple's could trace their genetic lineage to one of Jacob's/Israel's 12 sons. None were gentiles.

Acts 11
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


The second mention is in Acts 26 where Paul(disciple of Jesus to the gentiles) was in chains and has been brought before King Agrippa to determine if Paul is worthy of being put to death according to charges made BY THE JEWISH religion.

Acts 26
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.


The third mention is in 1 Peter 4:16, where Peter, the DISCIPLE on whom Christ stated HE would build HIS church, expounds upon the attributes of a TRUE "Christian/disciple of Christ".

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


By Peter's definition of a TRUE "Christian", perhaps the real question should be, "How many "ANY" Christians are there really out there?"

Something to consider?
Lee
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Benjamites and Levites were also called "Jews", not because of their tribal identity but because they were associated with the house of Judah and because they worshipped God according to the Jewish leadership and sects; the Sanhedrin, Levites, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. The other Israelite tribal descendants living in the region were certainly not Jews and didn't consider themselves such. In fact there was enmity between the Jews and those that remained of "the house of Israel". The Jews called them 'dogs'.
Where do you get this idea from? Where are those from the tribe of Levi calls Jews but from the tribe of Rueben called "dogs" in the Bible? We are talking New Testament please. Were the Pharisees from a particular blood line? The whole of Israel, north and south, went into captivity so the geographic separation was eliminated. But I would like to see where the tribe of Judah, Benjamine and Levi called the others "dogs" in the NT and it is shown that it is because they were of those tribes.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Where do you get this idea from? Where are those from the tribe of Levi calls Jews but from the tribe of Rueben called "dogs" in the Bible? We are talking New Testament please. Were the Pharisees from a particular blood line? The whole of Israel, north and south, went into captivity so the geographic separation was eliminated. But I would like to see where the tribe of Judah, Benjamine and Levi called the others "dogs" in the NT and it is shown that it is because they were of those tribes.

After Israel was divided the southern kingdom, "the house of Judah" which included Benjamin and Levi went into Babylonian captivity in about 585 B.C. The northern kingdom, "the house of Israel" went into Assyrian captivity around 720 B.C., 135 years later.

Paul, who was a Benjamite, called himself "a Jew of the Jews", meaning that was his extreme religious persuasion. The Levites comprised the working priesthood (Aaronic) and were also considered to be Jews for the same reason.

The Jews considered all Gentiles unclean, therefore 'dogs'. They held their lost cousins in the same disdain and had nothing to do with them.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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A lot of "Christians" in quotes don't like us. A lot of "Jews" don't like us. Sometimes it's like the ugly stepchild syndrome. But It's something you move past with the grace of God
I think calling not being liked "persecution" is really going too far. There are believers who are tortured and murdered for their faith. Being "not liked" does not qualify as persecution when one compares them. (I knew a Christian who claimed she was persecuted from others but when I got to observe her interacting I noticed that she was really obnoxious and selfish. That was likely the reason she was "persecuted" so I am careful about assuming too much when someone calls being not liked "persecution.")
 
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Dorothy Mae

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After Israel was divided the southern kingdom, "the house of Judah" which included Benjamin and Levi went into Babylonian captivity in about 585 B.C. The northern kingdom, "the house of Israel" went into Assyrian captivity around 720 B.C., 135 years later.

Paul, who was a Benjamite, called himself "a Jew of the Jews", meaning that was his religious persuasion. The Levites comprised the working priesthood (Aaronic) and were also considered to be Jews for the same reason.

The Jews considered all Gentiles unclean, therefore 'dogs'. They held their lost cousins in the same disdain and had nothing to do with them.
None of that answers my question. I asked where in the Bible you have quotes in the New Testament where only those of that tribe were called Jews and the others were all called "dogs.*
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Jesus and his disciples were
They lived millenia ago, which was my original statment. Christianity has not been called a Jewish sect for mellenia. Your statement proves my point.
History students may prefer Josephus to Telushkin for his valuable descriptions. Josephus gave a favorable description of Jesus and John the Baptist. God may have kept Josephus alive for a reason. I do not trust rabbis who claim Jesus blasphemed. I have looked into rabbinical commentary to get an idea about the context of the times of Jesus. I read “Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus,” by Joachim Jeremias.

You made a good point about the non-violence of Jeremiah. For his dissent Jeremiah was imprisoned in a cistern.
Thanks for the information.
 
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Ronit

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I think calling not being liked "persecution" is really going too far. There are believers who are tortured and murdered for their faith. Being "not liked" does not qualify as persecution when one compares them. (I knew a Christian who claimed she was persecuted from others but when I got to observe her interacting I noticed that she was really obnoxious and selfish. That was likely the reason she was "persecuted" so I am careful about assuming too much when someone calls being not liked "persecution.")
Wow! Well you have a right to your Opinion!
 
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