Covenant with Abraham - In Essence, a Christian Covenant?

ralliann said:

2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

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The covenant spoken of in Deu 5 is the Law of Moses, not the Abrahamic covenant of faith in the gospel. The choosing spoken of in Deu 7 based on the oath which he swore to the forefathers is the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (the covenant of faith).

Gup20 said:

The covenant spoken of in Deu 5 is the Law of Moses, not the Abrahamic covenant of faith in the gospel.

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Exactly why I posted it. The sinai covenant was not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or the patriarchs.

Gup20 said:

The choosing spoken of in Deu 7 based on the oath which he swore to the forefathers is the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (the covenant of faith).

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Yep, i would only say it is the covenant of mercy Which, law is the law of faith.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith

ralliann said:

Exactly why I posted it. The sinai covenant was not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or the patriarchs.

Yep, i would only say it is the covenant of mercy Which, law is the law of faith.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith

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I thought so, but there wasn't a lot of included commentary... just wanted to make sure I was tracking.

As to calling it the law of faith... I'm ok with that since the Bible certainly calls it that. However, that name can muddy the waters with people who are already confused between the covenants of faith and the law. I think Paul says it that way to drive home that faith has the same force and is on the same level to affect man's righteousness as The Law of Moses.

Gup20 said:

I thought so, but there wasn't a lot of included commentary... just wanted to make sure I was tracking.

As to calling it the law of faith... I'm ok with that since the Bible certainly calls it that. However, that name can muddy the waters with people who are already confused between the covenants of faith and the law. I think Paul says it that way to drive home that faith has the same force and is on the same level to affect man's righteousness as The Law of Moses.

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I am not so sure I am quite grasping what you mean in saying this.

" same force and is on the same level to affect man's righteousness as The Law of Moses"

But here are some verses to ponder.

Human righteousness......To be seen of men, the nations round about.

De 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.


De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.


The inheritance is by Gods righteousness

De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

It's obvious that by the time of Deut.9, something had changed among the children of Israel, causing them to become rebellious and "stiffnecked" against God. That did not apply to Abraham who believed God's Promise and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Thus there has always... been a difference between the righteousness by Faith attributed to Abraham's Faith on the Promise vs. Israel's later assumed false righteousness by the law.

That problem still exists among orthodox Jews today with their thinking that keeping the law is what Abraham's righteousness was about.

Davy said:

It's obvious that by the time of Deut.9, something had changed among the children of Israel, causing them to become rebellious and "stiffnecked" against God. That did not apply to Abraham who believed God's Promise and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Thus there has always... been a difference between the righteousness by Faith attributed to Abraham's Faith on the Promise vs. Israel's later assumed false righteousness by the law.

That problem still exists among orthodox Jews today with their thinking that keeping the law is what Abraham's righteousness was about.

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I see it as their righteousness was law that if they kept men could find no accusation against them. Men cannot see the heart of a man like God does. Also this too leads to God not being blasphemed. But the righteousness that brings the promises to pass is according to Gods power might wisdom and in short....God's faithfulness to his oath...faithfulness to Abraham.

ralliann said:

I see it as their righteousness was law that if they kept men could find no accusation against them. Men cannot see the heart of a man like God does. Also this too leads to God not being blasphemed. But the righteousness that brings the promises to pass is according to Gods power might wisdom and in short....God's fithfulness to his oath...faithfulness to Abraham.

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So do you believe the righteousness God attributed to Abraham involved the keeping of God's law?

Davy said:

So do you believe the righteousness God attributed to Abraham involved the keeping of God's law?

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The law of faith, yes. Abraham did what God told him to do didn't he? Abraham did those things didn't he?

ralliann said:

The law of faith, yes. Abraham did what God told him to do didn't he? Abraham did those things didn't he?

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Abraham's Faith has nothing to do with the 'idea' nor 'concept' of law, period. If it did, then it would not be 'faith', and thus belief on God's Promise would be by the law.

Obviously you don't want to recognize the difference between God's Grace, which is what God gave Abraham because of his Faith, and not because He obeyed God in anything.

Davy said:

Abraham's Faith has nothing to do with the 'idea' nor 'concept' of law, period. If it did, then it would not be 'faith', and thus belief on God's Promise would be by the law.

Obviously you don't want to recognize the difference between God's Grace, which is what God gave Abraham because of his Faith, and not because He obeyed God in anything.

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You are wrong in your accusation of me....
The law of faith vs law of works...….
Abraham kept the law of faith, not the law of works
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Gen26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
You have no idea what I believe.
Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob had for law of Moses. They were not even given the covenant of works.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Is that enough for you to have a cordial conversation?

The covenants of Law & faith are the two covenants by which one can be declared righteous.

People claim that Abraham kept the law, but it was not the law of Moses that he kept.

the law of Moses wouldn’t come for hundreds of years. Perhaps he did the things that God commanded him to do... however that isn’t what made him righteous. The Bible is explicit that his righteousness came by faith.

Davy said:

So do you believe the righteousness God attributed to Abraham involved the keeping of God's law?

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Hello, just to jump in here...the Righteousness Abraham received as a result of his faith is the nature of Gods law (in mind)...first we need to get taught first so we know, then we understood and acted out...that how the process of obtaining Righteousness through faith..(through wisdom and understanding)

Gup20 said:

The covenants of Law & faith are the two covenants by which one can be declared righteous.

People claim that Abraham kept the law, but it was not the law of Moses that he kept.

Genesis 26:5 (NASB) because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
​

the law of Moses wouldn’t come for hundreds of years. Perhaps he did the things that God commanded him to do... however that isn’t what made him righteous. The Bible is explicit that his righteousness came by faith.

Nehemiah 9:7-8 (NASB) 7 "You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham. 8 "You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.​

Psalm 32:1,2 (NASB)
1 [[A Psalm of David, Maschil.]] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.​

Romans 4:3-7 (NASB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.​

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Absolutely agreed...thanks

pasifika said:

Absolutely agreed...thanks

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This is why it says "the WAGES of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. If faith were a work, then the "wage" of faith would be eternal life. But it's not a wage, it's a gift.

Salvation is inherited, not earned. An heir does not earn their inheritance, but they are given it because of the kinship to the father.


So the requirement for salvation is to be qualified as an heir, not to earn it.


The way we qualify for this inheritance is to have the same faith (without works) that Abraham had. Those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had.

Gup20 said:

This is why it says "the WAGES of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. If faith were a work, then the "wage" of faith would be eternal life. But it's not a wage, it's a gift.

Salvation is inherited, not earned. An heir does not earn their inheritance, but they are given it because of the kinship to the father.

[Isa 49:8 NASB] 8 Thus says the LORD, "In a favorable time I have answered You, And in a day of salvation I have helped You; And I will keep You and give You for a covenant of the people, To restore the land, to make [them] inherit the desolate heritages;

[Zec 8:12 NASB] 12 'For [there will be] peace for the seed: the vine will yield its fruit, the land will yield its produce and the heavens will give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these [things.]

[Mat 19:29 NASB] 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

[Heb 1:14 NASB] 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

[Mat 25:34 NASB] 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

[Heb 6:12 NASB] 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

[Heb 9:15 NASB] 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were [committed] under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.​

So the requirement for salvation is to be qualified as an heir, not to earn it.

[Col 1:12 NASB] 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.​

The way we qualify for this inheritance is to have the same faith (without works) that Abraham had. Those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith...
16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Gal 3:6-9, 29 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

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Hello Gup, thank you.... so if eternal life is a gift then also makes our faith a gift from God as well?

pasifika said:

Hello Gup, thank you.... so if eternal life is a gift then also makes our faith a gift from God as well?

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I know that idea is common amongst Calvinists, but I don't believe that is the correct interpretation of Ephesians 2:8. No, faith isn't the gift... the Holy Spirit and Salvation are the gift. Faith is how we become qualified for human adoption and thereby qualified as heirs. When we have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had we are considered the descendants of Abraham.


In the pattern of Abraham, the archetype for faith, we see that he believed and then was sealed with circumcision. Circumcision is Old Testament foreshadow for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The context of Ephesians 2:8 is Ephesians 1:13 which says that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER faith, not before faith. Romans 2:28-29 says that the Holy Spirit in us is "circumcision of the heart." Galatians 3:14 says that we receive the promise of the spirit through faith.... not faith through the promise of the Spirit. So the gift is the Holy Spirit, not faith.

Further, that in Romans 4 we are told repeatedly that Abraham was made righteous for his faith WHILE uncircumcised (or prior to being indwelled with the Holy Spirit in New Testament vernacular).


So we see here in Romans 4:16 the echoing of what is stated in Ephesians 2:8 but without the possibility of confusing faith as the gift. Here, we see that righteousness is the gift.


Since death came by sin, reason tells us that life comes by righteousness. The Bible even seems to use life and righteousness as synonymous.


Righteousness and life are the definition of salvation.


So when Ephesians 2:8 says "we are saved by grace through faith; it is the gift of God" we know that righteousness and the Holy Spirit are life, and that life is our salvation. So the "gift" from Ephesians 2:8 is not faith, but rather being "saved" is the gift.

If I said "You are given cash by compassion through electronic transfer. This gift is from me." we would know that "cash" is the gift, not "electronic transfer". Electronic transfer is HOW the gift of cash arrived... it is not the gift itself. The sentence structure is the same in Ephesians 2:8.

pasifika said:

Hello, just to jump in here...the Righteousness Abraham received as a result of his faith is the nature of Gods law (in mind)...first we need to get taught first so we know, then we understood and acted out...that how the process of obtaining Righteousness through faith..(through wisdom and understanding)

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So, are you saying you too believe Abraham's righteousness that God attributed to him was from following the law? Careful how you decide to jump.

Davy said:

So, are you saying you too believe Abraham's righteousness that God attributed to him was from following the law? Careful how you decide to jump.

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Faith is the Righteousness of the law Abraham follow..

Gup20 said:

I know that idea is common amongst Calvinists, but I don't believe that is the correct interpretation of Ephesians 2:8. No, faith isn't the gift... the Holy Spirit and Salvation are the gift. Faith is how we become qualified for human adoption and thereby qualified as heirs. When we have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had we are considered the descendants of Abraham.

[Gal 3:14 NASB] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 4:11] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

In the pattern of Abraham, the archetype for faith, we see that he believed and then was sealed with circumcision. Circumcision is Old Testament foreshadow for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The context of Ephesians 2:8 is Ephesians 1:13 which says that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER faith, not before faith. Romans 2:28-29 says that the Holy Spirit in us is "circumcision of the heart." Galatians 3:14 says that we receive the promise of the spirit through faith.... not faith through the promise of the Spirit. So the gift is the Holy Spirit, not faith.

Further, that in Romans 4 we are told repeatedly that Abraham was made righteous for his faith WHILE uncircumcised (or prior to being indwelled with the Holy Spirit in New Testament vernacular).

[Rom 4:9-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

So we see here in Romans 4:16 the echoing of what is stated in Ephesians 2:8 but without the possibility of confusing faith as the gift. Here, we see that righteousness is the gift.

[Rom 5:17 NASB] 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

Since death came by sin, reason tells us that life comes by righteousness. The Bible even seems to use life and righteousness as synonymous.

[Gal 3:21 NASB] 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.​

Righteousness and life are the definition of salvation.

[Rom 5:10 NASB] 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

So when Ephesians 2:8 says "we are saved by grace through faith; it is the gift of God" we know that righteousness and the Holy Spirit are life, and that life is our salvation. So the "gift" from Ephesians 2:8 is not faith, but rather being "saved" is the gift.

If I said "You are given cash by compassion through electronic transfer. This gift is from me." we would know that "cash" is the gift, not "electronic transfer". Electronic transfer is HOW the gift of cash arrived... it is not the gift itself. The sentence structure is the same in Ephesians 2:8.

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hello, so you’re saying that faith is the result of those gifts (Holy Spirit, salvation) that qualify us for adoption?

pasifika said:

hello, so you’re saying that faith is the result of those gifts (Holy Spirit, salvation) that qualify us for adoption?

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Faith is belief. Mere belief. I know that Calvinists think that man needs God's help to have faith, but I don't see this in scripture. I am saying that salvation (righteousness) and the Holy Spirit are an indirect (but reliable) result of man's faith first qualifying him for human adoption into the family of Abraham because of God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness he was given.

The Bible says,


Since man is capable of knowing good and evil (many suppose man is only capable of knowing evil), he can choose to believe things without external support.

Additionally, scripture is quite explicit on man's ability to make the choice to believe without God making the choice for him.


Here we see that 3 times God tells us that the choice between life and death, the blessing or the curse is a choice that he has set before us. He says this choice is not made in heaven, and that it is not too difficult for us, nor out of our reach. He says we do not need help from heaven to make the choice. It is near to us. The Apostle Paul equates this very passage from Deuteronomy 30 with the righteousness which comes by faith (which we should have suspected given verse 6 which talks about circumcision of the heart).


So here we see Paul say that the righteousness based on faith follows what we see in Deuteronomy 30 - that it is a decision God sets before man, and that man does not need God to make the decision for him... and that it is not too difficult for man to make the decision to believe. In fact, he says DO NOT SAY that man needs God to make the decision for him. In other words, faith is not something which God gives us, nor is it too difficult for us to do. Faith originates in man, whilst the gospel comes from God.


God originally preached the gospel to Abraham, giving him the human choice to believe or not believe. Abraham was not filled with the Holy Spirit, nor did God cause him to believe. Once Abraham made the choice to believe the gospel, he was credited with righteousness. Abraham will be the only person who was ever made righteous directly for his faith. Christ gave up his righteousness and became a curse for us. Christ's righteousness was given in a 1:1 exchange with Abraham. The rest of us inherit that righteousness from our father Abraham (we are not given it directly for our faith like Abraham was). If we have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had, we are considered Abraham's descendants and heirs of Christ's righteousness according to the promise God made Abraham to give it to his descendants. By this law of inheritance is Christ's righteousness multiplied to the many.