Circumcision of the Heart

Mercy74 · Apr 25, 2020

pinacled said:
For the sons and daughters seeking to both temper and sharpen iron.
Remember always that there is certain cherub positioned at the east gate patiently waiting.
While there is an ox to the west.
An eagle to the north.
And a hidden treasure to the south.

Spiritual armor such as sword will need be tempered at the east gate where a flaming sword guards the way.

Blessings Always

David was truly circumcised in his heart; his loyalty to his father-in law King Saul.
"Circumcision in the flesh" used to pay a dowry for marriage into the royal family.

1 Samuel 18:27
David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

pinacled · Apr 25, 2020

Mercy74 said:
David was truly circumcised in his heart; his loyalty to his father-in law King Saul.
"Circumcision in the flesh" used to pay a dowry for marriage into the royal family.

1 Samuel 18:27
David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

in no way does a philistine have anything to do with tempering a sword.
Nor a heart and sword

pinacled · Apr 25, 2020

Mercy74 said:
Abraham was truly circumcised in his heart, for this cause he circumcised his son Isaac on the 8th day. Abraham even circumcised every male in his household. David was truly circumcised in his heart, he protected his father's sheep from the lion or the bear. David slew the lion or bear with his bare hands, we know circumcision or "cutting of the foreskin" in the flesh is performed by human hands (Colossians 2:11).

1 Samuel 17:34-36
But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this UNCIRCUMCISED Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.

Notice how David compared the uncircumcised Philistine with the lion or bear with a beard. It is interesting that David seized the beast by its hair.

Hair is important in relation to moon phases.
And purity of understanding given a certain preisthood

pinacled · Apr 25, 2020

Mercy74 said:
Abraham was truly circumcised in his heart, for this cause he circumcised his son Isaac on the 8th day. Abraham even circumcised every male in his household. David was truly circumcised in his heart, he protected his father's sheep from the lion or the bear. David slew the lion or bear with his bare hands, we know circumcision or "cutting of the foreskin" in the flesh is performed by human hands (Colossians 2:11).

1 Samuel 17:34-36
But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this UNCIRCUMCISED Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.

Notice how David compared the uncircumcised Philistine with the lion or bear with a beard. It is interesting that David seized the beast by its hair.

The account given by the prophet shmuel is an example lesson of exploitation..

Who was David attempting to please?

"Love thine enemy ... "
Is important to remember concerning circumcision of the heart

pinacled · Apr 25, 2020

Mercy74 said:
David was truly circumcised in his heart; his loyalty to his father-in law King Saul.
"Circumcision in the flesh" used to pay a dowry for marriage into the royal family.

1 Samuel 18:27
David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

Have you ever wondered if David returned a sword to the philistines/king?..
Perhaps there is more to consider concerning armor ..

Blessings Always

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.

Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:

(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

pinacled · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.

Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:

(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

Before calling the Talmud a mere tradition.
Focus on the topic without preconceived notions.
The sign given to Avrhm was not circumcision..

Yeshua wrote The Torah

Blessed be The Holy One

pinacled · Apr 25, 2020

pinacled said:
in no way does a philistine have anything to do with tempering a sword.
Nor a heart and sword

Where to temper a sword is for those that desire Truth.
While David perhaps kept the sword and armor of his enemy for a moment in time.
I imagine a realization is given to all who hear in the spirit.

A preferable armor is the same that conquers both giants and death alike.

What need is there to keep spoils of war?

AbbaLove · Apr 26, 2020

Circumcision Of The Heart ... is like a strong foundation, a critical cornerstone and a key capstone to building and maintaining one's trust/faith in the LORD GOD (John 10:30, John 20:28, 1 John 5:20). Only possible by tabernacling with His abiding SPIRIT guiding us along life's journey. Yet, is there even one Bible translation that has "Circumcision of the Heart" in its glossary ?

If someone has found an article, book or youtube that you prefer over this JFJ link please do post ...

Circumcision of the Heart

Has anyone come across another source they can recommend as possibly more representative of Messianic Judaism's insight into "Circumcision Of The Heart" as first recorded in the Torah and later expounded upon by Jeremiah and the apostle Paul (Jeremiah 4:1-4, Romans 2:25-29).

This thread was long overdue as a keystone for more harmonizing heart-to-heart discussion. Even more so between the LORD'S Seven Feasts from the Feast of Pesach through the Feast of Tabernacles.

Thanks to pinacled for thread
(walking with the Shekinah)

pinacled · Apr 27, 2020

pinacled said:
Where to temper a sword is for those that desire Truth.
While David perhaps kept the sword and armor of his enemy for a moment in time.
I imagine a realization is given to all who hear in the spirit.

A preferable armor is the same that conquers both giants and death alike.

What need is there to keep spoils of war?

[The religious observance that God the Father considers pure and faultless is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being contaminated by the world.]

What gain is there in spoils of war.
As is found in the beauty of instruction throughout the Torah and Prophets.
Being in the world and not of it pertains to a valuable lesson.

Deuteronomy 12; Deuteronomy 20; Numbers 21:1-3; Numbers 31:1-18; Numbers 32; Numbers 33:50-56; Deuteronomy 9; Joshua 7:1-15; Joshua 9; Joshua 11; Joshua 23; Judges 2:11-23; 1 Samuel 15:10-26; Deuteronomy 7:1-6; Deuteronomy 31:1-8; Zechariah 12:9; Jeremiah 1:10; Jeremiah 51:15-23 - New International Version - NIV - Bible Study Tools

Blessings Always

pinacled · Apr 27, 2020

pinacled said:
Hair is important in relation to moon phases.
And purity of understanding given a certain preisthood

28 Bible verses about East And West

pinacled · Apr 28, 2020

I'm wondering if there are any readers here recall the whole armor to be in likeness to priestly garments.
If so there is much to found concerning treasures of the heart.
While twelve stones were accrued as a breastplate.
There are two hidden till the appropriate time.
Read shemot closely.
Exodus
Hard of heart reminds this old ox of hard of hearing

Blessings Always.

LookuntoYeshua · Apr 28, 2020

pinacled said:
I'm wondering if there are any readers here recall the whole armor to be in likeness to priestly garments.
If so there is much to found concerning treasures of the heart.
While twelve stones were accrued as a breastplate.
There are two hidden till the appropriate time.
Read shemot closely.
Exodus
Hard of heart reminds this old ox of hard of hearing

Blessings Always.

כט וְנָשָׂא אַהֲרֹן אֶת-שְׁמוֹת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּחֹשֶׁן הַמִּשְׁפָּט, עַל-לִבּוֹ--בְּבֹאוֹ אֶל-הַקֹּדֶשׁ: לְזִכָּרֹן לִפְנֵי-יְהוָה, תָּמִיד. 29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
ל וְנָתַתָּ אֶל-חֹשֶׁן הַמִּשְׁפָּט, אֶת-הָאוּרִים וְאֶת-הַתֻּמִּים, וְהָיוּ עַל-לֵב אַהֲרֹן, בְּבֹאוֹ לִפְנֵי יְהוָה; וְנָשָׂא אַהֲרֹן אֶת-מִשְׁפַּט בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל עַל-לִבּוֹ, לִפְנֵי יְהוָה--תָּמִיד. {ס} 30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD; and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually. {S}

visionary · Apr 30, 2020

Here is the true circumcision of the heart.
Acts 28:27
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It is prophesied that the Gentiles will be converted, will have the circumcision of the heart that encompasses their life in harmony with what God requires.
Isaiah 60:5
Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

To experience this circumcision of the heart is an awesome experience. It changes your life forever, and your life is His to have and to hold from that day forward. His Will be done.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

visionary · Apr 30, 2020

A lot of posts are about the buying and selling aspect regarding circumcision being fostered on believers. It is like the temple sales of lambs, pigeons etc with shekels. It upsets our Lord to hear or see this misuse, or misunderstanding regarding the purpose, the real meaning, and the outward sign. It also reminds me of how much imitation is out there.

In one case, the lack of knowledge regarding God and on the gifts of God creates a marketplace for scammers.

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

You may not think that this case is related to the discussion, but it is on the bigger scale. Misuse or abuse of God's name, gifts, signs, and purposes lead to a whole new industry of whoredom.

pinacled · Apr 30, 2020

visionary said:
Here is the true circumcision of the heart.
Acts 28:27
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It is prophesied that the Gentiles will be converted, will have the circumcision of the heart that encompasses their life in harmony with what God requires.
Isaiah 60:5
Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

To experience this circumcision of the heart is an awesome experience. It changes your life forever, and your life is His to have and to hold from that day forward. His Will be done.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Proverbs 20

The hearing ear and the seeing eye —
Adonai made them both.

Mercy74 · Jun 5, 2020

pinacled said:
in no way does a philistine have anything to do with tempering a sword.
Nor a heart and sword

David brought back only the "foreskin" as a dowry for marriage into the royal family.

Colossians 2:11
When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.

Matthew 6:1
“Watch out! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven.

HARK! · Jun 5, 2020

pinacled said:
What Does the Bible Say About Rise Up?

Matthew 12:42
“The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

Thera · Jun 5, 2020

visionary said:
Here is the true circumcision of the heart.
Acts 28:27
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Where circumcision is used as an analogy in the bible, it seems to refer to the removal of a hindrance to function. Whether the removal of a veil from over the eyes, a blockage from within the ears, a stony hardening from around the heart, or as in the literal meaning, the snipping off an impediment to a male's capacity to procreate. The old man is removed, the sinful nature is put off, the uncleanness made clean, the creature reborn as new.

When Jesus died, the temple veil was torn in two - the barrier between God and man removed. Possibly similar to Old Testament circumcision, where a foreskin was a barrier to an Israelite's covenant with God.

visionary said:
It is prophesied that the Gentiles will be converted, will have the circumcision of the heart that encompasses their life in harmony with what God requires.
Isaiah 60:5
Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

To experience this circumcision of the heart is an awesome experience. It changes your life forever, and your life is His to have and to hold from that day forward. His Will be done.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

The irony is that many of those uncircumcised in flesh became circumcised in heart, and many of those circumcised in flesh were still uncircumcised and dead in heart.

visionary said:
A lot of posts are about the buying and selling aspect regarding circumcision being fostered on believers. It is like the temple sales of lambs, pigeons etc with shekels. It upsets our Lord to hear or see this misuse, or misunderstanding regarding the purpose, the real meaning, and the outward sign. It also reminds me of how much imitation is out there.

I didn't quite understand this, but if you mean those who are trying to push the outward sign as still having religious importance, I agree. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value - what counts is faith expressing itself through love.

I do think there may be health benefits to many of God's commands, including circumcision, but this is different to spiritual significance.

Mercy74 · Jun 7, 2020

pinacled said:
in no way does a philistine have anything to do with tempering a sword.
Nor a heart and sword

David circumcised his enemy removed the "foreskin" and brought it back to his father-in-law King Saul; Israel was one nation. Shall you follow the example of King David, so that you may be truly called the son of David like Yeshua? You must cut away or off the "sinful nature" or foreskin of sin from your enemies; this is pure love.

Circumcision of the Heart

Mercy Messianic Judaism

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Circumcism Of The Heart

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ציאקאק

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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