The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

Zao is life

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I wonder if you would be willing to acknowledge that the claim "This is ... the theology of Christ and His apostles." is rather astonishingly audacious? What if you were to say, "The following is what I understand Christ and the apostles to be saying..."?

I also stumble on the claim, "This is not really controversial Christian theology..." because, well, it is controversial. In order to demonstrate, I have chosen to quote just a few trustworthy and well-known Christian scholars.

Donald Bloesch, for example, observed:

“[T]heir stringent separation of law and gospel prevents them from acknowledging the unity and complementarity of law and gospel. …
Paradoxically hand in hand with the opening to works–righteousness is an antinomian strand that views Christians in the church age or age of grace as under the gospel only and not also under the law. The law is something that is done away with, though the moral teachings of Jesus in the New Testament continue to have force." (Donald G. Bloesch. The Last Things: Resurrection, Judgment, Glory. InterVarsity Press, 2004. 96–97.)​

You see, Bloesch recognizes that historic Christianity has always believed:

…the Christian is saved by grace alone but for the purpose of living a holy life. Our responsibility is not simply to receive and believe but to take up the cross and follow Christ in costly discipleship." (Ibid, 97)​

J.I. Packer, points out in his book, Growing in Christ, that:

"the love-or-law antithesis is false, just as the down-grading of law is perverse. Love and law are not opponents but allies, forming together the axis of true morality. Law needs love as its drive, else we get the Pharisaism that puts principles before people and says one can be perfectly good without actually loving one’s neighbor…. And love needs law as its eyes, for love (Christian agape as well as sexual eros) is blind. To want to love someone Christianly does not of itself tell you how to do it. Only as we observe the limits set by God’s law can we really do people good." (Crossway Books, 1996. p 232)​

Later in the same book, Packer highlights the key to maintaining a proper perspective on the Law is to:

"Keep two truths in view. First, God’s law expresses his character. It reflects his own behavior; it alerts us to what he will love and hate to see in us. It is a recipe for holiness, consecrated conformity to God, which is his true image in man. And as such (this is the second truth) God’s law fits human nature. As cars, being made as they are, only work well with gas in the tank, so we, being made as we are, only find fulfillment in a life of law-keeping. This is what we were both made and redeemed for." (Ibid, 279, 280)​

With this same perspective in mind, John Calvin remarked,

"If it cannot be denied that it [the Law] contains a perfect pattern of righteousness, then, unless we ought not to have any proper rule of life, it must be impious to discard it." (Institutes of the Christian Religion, II, vii, 13.)​

Sinclair Ferguson reminds us of the traditional Christian view:

"This is why…the law of God is seen to play such an important role in sanctification. Its three functions or uses are well known: to convict of sin, to restrain evildoers and to instruct believers." (Christian Spirituality: Five Views of Sanctification. InterVarsity Press, 1988. 68-69.)​

Lest anyone be tempted to think this is a strictly Reformed view, let's turn to John Wesley, well known as an Arminian theologian:

"I am afraid this great and important truth is little understood, not only by the world, but even by many whom God hath taken out of the world, who are real children of God by faith. Many of these lay it down as an unquestioned truth, that when we come to Christ, we have done with the law; and that, in this sense, “Christ is the end of the law to every one that believeth.” “The end of the law:” so he is, “for righteousness,” for justification, “to every one that believeth.” Herein the law is at an end. It justifies none, but only brings them to Christ; who is also, in another respect, the end or scope of the law, — the point at which it continually aims. But when it has brought us to him it has yet a farther office, namely, to keep us with him. For it is continually exciting all believers, the more they see of its height, and depth, and length, and breadth, to exhort one another so much the more, —

Closer and closer let us cleave
To his beloved Embrace;
Expect his fullness to receive,
And grace to answer grace."

(Sermon 34)​

You see, the valid question is not if the law of God (from Genesis to Revelation) continues to instruct the redeemed, but how it is to do so.

The Westminster Confession, the London Baptist Confession, and the 39 Articles of Religion all agree that:

"The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral."​

So, if brothers and sisters in Christ would like to disagree over which God-given instructions qualify as "moral" this is understandable, as nothing in Scripture specifically designates: this is moral, this is not. But, if a brother or sister suggests that the law of God has been in any way done away with: they are very, very much on controversial ground.

I believe I have worked out a helpful way of recognizing the prescriptive nature of all God's laws (in that they show us what His character would do in a given situation) without making the mistake of attempting to wholesale adopt teaching that includes both enduring principles and specific case-sensitive instructions, but that would be the topic of another post.
Thank you for your post and for your points.

The New Covenant does not invalidate the Word of God. It re-affirms it (see Jeremiah 31:31-33). That's why Paul said,

Gal 3:19, 21-24 "Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand.

Is the Law then against the promises of God? Let it not be said! For if a law had been given which could have given life, indeed righteousness would have been out of Law. But the Scripture shut up all under sin, so that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under Law, having been shut up to the faith about to be revealed. So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith."


Nothing you say or which you quote changes the fact that Jesus and Paul made a summation of all the law, making it abundantly clear what laws they regarded as moral and eternally applicable, and how those laws were fulfilled only by Christ, and how they can be produced as CHRIST'S fruit only in those who abide in Christ and live by faith in Him and in His righteousness.

This thread is therefore not controversial Christian theology - but now I can say tongue-in-cheek that after your post, I can see that it's just as well I posted the thread in the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum!
 
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Zao is life

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Man will always be obligated to be righteous/obedient. This hasn't changed under the New Covenant. The matter is all about how that is achieved, with God, or without Him, which turns out to be impossible. The New Covenant is all about something new: establishing relationship/communion with God. This is essentially a union that Adam dismissed and rejected, and the union that we're to now come to embrace as we become reconciled with God again.
I agree and Jesus tells us how the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled by making the statement that all the Law and the prophets hang on two commandments, and Paul repeats what Jesus said earlier when he makes the same summation.

PS: The law regrading observances of days, months, new moons, feasts and sabbaths are not included in the Law Jesus and Paul teach us to obey.

I also can't understand why people feel they have to point out that when Jesus was talking about love for neighbor and for the brethren He was not talking about eros. It should be obvious to all He was not talking about that. Real love is pointing out to your brothers and sisters where they are at fault, even if it hurts. Real love is caring about and for people. It has nothing to do with eros. James gives us examples of real love when he talks about how works being produced by faith translates into actually helping those in need instead of just telling them to "go well, have faith and be fed", and how it translates into bridling the tongue, etc.
 
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Zao is life

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Well, the LORD does say the Old Covenant is "forever", right? And Jesus says not one part of the Law shall pass away. So, to me this means it is "forever".

It could only be forever if both parties to the covenant were faithful to their vows forever. God's elect promised to obey ALL that the LORD had commanded, and to be obedient, but they were not. So the covenant was broken by the "wife", and if the covenant was broken, so were all its commandments.

We forget that at first the ten commandments written by the finger of God on the tablets were smashed by Moses - the covenant was broken before it even started. But Moses interceded for the elect people and so God reconstituted the covenant - but with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, the entire generation of people who entered the wilderness perished in the wilderness. Only the children born in the wilderness entered the promised land - under the leadership of Joshua, who is a Biblical type of Jesus.

All these are types: Moses died in the wilderness and was not permitted to cross the Jordan, showing that the way into the Kingdom of God is not through obedience to Law (because the elect could not, and did not obey it) but by Christ, who could, and did obey it.

So I agree with what you say below, and you mention a very important point also which I have enlarged in your text:

But God's word says we in Jesus have a better covenant.

Hebrews 7:22

Hebrews 8:6

Hebrews 12:24

And, by the way, Hebrews 7:12 says we in Jesus do not have the Levitical priesthood which is part of the Old Covenant. Jesus is our High Priest of all so superior to what the "everlasting" Old Covenant has to offer and requires.

But the Old Covenant is part of God's word. And yes God uses the Levitical priesthood, that He established . . . as an object lesson to show what can't work.

And so - - - God's word says "All" of God's word is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" > in 2 Timothy 3:16. Any scripture, then, can be used by God to help you find out how to love and relate with God while loving any and all people in sharing with Him. There is God's love meaning of any scripture; because God gave it all, and "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16).

Our Apostle Paul has clearly said how the early scriptures have helped him to know he needed Jesus > Romans 7:7 > in this case, helping him know how to love, by telling him what is not love. The Old Covenant exposed how Paul had sin problems. We need to see how we are wrong, so this can help us get all which is right with God. There are various ways the early scriptures can help us see how we are wrong and need Jesus. So, by doing this, the early scriptures are helping us to find out how to share with God and love any and all people.

And there are various things in early scripture which can help us to appreciate God more, plus understand better how He desires for us to love and relate.

And this will have an everlasting result, by helping us discover and grow in God's everlasting love. So, I would say the early Covenant is everlasting in its ministry. More practically, it exposes how humans have cheated their own selves by cheating on the LORD. It is humble enough to show us how it could not work, because of depending so much on the free wills of humans. God did all His wonders, perfect punishing, so well taking care of the Jews . . . proving Himself so greatly.

Yet, that could not work, as much as it depended on the humans!!!! Depending on human capability . . . at all . . . was guaranteed to failure.

And God knew that. But now . . . depending on how God is able to use the early scriptures . . . the Old Covenant can succeed in its originally intended purpose and therefore its rightful interpretation. So, possibly among other things, the Law of Moses is meant as an object lesson, of how nothing could work . . . even God's own perfect Law and His perfect every activity reported in early scripture > none of that could work . . . without His Son Jesus. Only by having Jesus living in us can we please God and live His way and stay this way because of His own Son formed in us as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19.
 
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Zao is life

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LOL!



(CLV) Jn 14:6
Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me.

==================================================
THE WAY
==================================================

(CLV) Ex 18:20
You will warn them with the statutes and the laws and make known to them the way in which they shall go and the deeds which they shall do.

(CLV) Dt 10:12
And now, Israel, what is Yahweh your Elohim asking of you, save to fear Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love Him and to serve Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul,

(CLV) Jos 22:5
But observe meticulously to keep the instruction and the law that M woses the servant of Yahweh enjoined on you: to love Yahweh your Elohim and to walk in all His ways, to observe His instructions, to cling to Him and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) 1Ki 2:3
You will keep the charge of Yahweh your Elohim to walk in His ways, to observe His statutes and His instructions, His ordinances and His testimonies as written in the law of Moses, so that you may act intelligently in all that you do and everywhere that you turn around,

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Mal 2:8
Yet you withdraw from the way. You cause many to stumble at the law. You ruin the covenant of Levi, says Yahweh of hosts.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

==================================================
THE TRUTH
==================================================

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

(CLV) Mal 2:6
The law of truth, it came to be in his mouth, and iniquity, it was not found on his lips. In peace and in uprightness he walked with Me, and turned many back from depravity.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

==================================================
THE LIFE
==================================================

(CLV) Jb 33:30
To restore his soul from the pit, To enlighten him with the light of the living.

(CLV) Ps 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light shall we see light.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life

===============================================

THE LIGHT
==================================================

(CLV) Jn 8:12
Again, then, Jesus speaks to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He who is following Me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life."

(CLV) Jb 24:13
They are among those revolting against the light; They neither recognize its ways Nor dwell in its tracks.

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 51:4
Attend to Me, My people, And, My folk, give ear to Me! For a law shall go forth from Me, And My judgment for a light of the peoples.

(CLV) 2Co 6:14
Do not become diversely yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what communion has light with darkness?

(CLV) 1Jn 1:7
Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.

==================================================
THE WORD
===============================================

(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.


Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.

Except that he never taught us to obey Torah. He obeyed Torah on our behalf, taught us what it means, died for our transgressions, rose again from the dead and instructed us to abide in Him so that His fruit can be produced in us who walk not according to the flesh's attempts at obedience to Torah, but according to the Spirit.

Since Yahshua is the living Torah, you need to OBEY HIM.
 
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Swag365

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This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them.

Exo 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD has said will we do."

Exo 24:7-8 "And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

The elect had to make a promise of value in that covenant, therefore it was considered God's marriage-contract with Israel, and God (the "husband") promised Israel abundance of blessing in the land IF they obeyed ALL that God had commanded though Moses - but curses and exile from the land if they disobeyed - and because they are incapable of obeying, all that the law brings is curses and death.

Also, a marriage covenant is only "everlasting" until the 'wife' breaks the covenant, and as God said through Jeremiah, the "wife" had broken the covenant:

Both the ten Northern tribes and the tribe of Judah continuously broke the covenant,
but in His mercy God promised a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah which would NOT BE ACCORDING to the covenant He made with them at Sinai:

Jer 31:31-32 "Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, says the LORD."

"Though I was a husband unto them" is the same as saying that though God remained faithful to His vows, the "wife" had continuously been unfaithful, and had therefore broken the covenant - and so their new moons, sabbaths and feasts became utterly distasteful to God, to the point that God even calls Israel "Sodom and Gomorrah":

Isa 1:10-14 "Hear the word of the LORD, all of you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, all of you people of Gomorrah.

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

When all of you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."


UNFIT FOR PURPOSE:

The Covenant God made with Israel "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" had proved unfit for purpose in two ways:

1. It was unfit for purpose in terms of God having an everlasting covenant relationship with His elect; and
2. It was unfit for purpose to bring life and righteousness to God's elect:

Rom 7:12-14: "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."


The Law and the covenant at Sinai was unfit for purpose not because God was not faithful and capable, but because His elect were neither faithful nor capable.

THE TWO COVENANTS RATIFIED BY BLOOD - THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT

Blood has to do with sacrifice for sins and forgiveness for sins. The first covenant, given at Sinai, was ratified with blood:

Exo 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

Likewise the New Covenant was ratified by blood - but not with the blood of bulls and goats - with Christ's blood:

Mat 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

FOREVER

The New Covenant is everlasting, the old covenant is gone:

Heb 8:13 "In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away."

COMMANDMENTS IN THE LAW WHICH CONTAINED THE WORDS "EVERLASTING" AND "FOREVER"

.. are done away with and cease to exist - BECAUSE THEY WERE BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE AND THE COVENANT WHICH WAS BASED UPON THEM HAS BEEN REPLACED.

INSULTING THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT

It's an insult to God the Father and His Messiah who is Christ the Lord to seek to keep alive commandments (such as sabbath-keeping) which are part of the Old Covenant and have been done away with because the "wife" broke the covenant.

When God used the words "everlasting" and "forever" when He gave the Law and its commandments to His elect at Sinai, it's because HE was faithful and capable of keeping HIS vows - and IF (ONLY IF) the "wife" in that marriage-covenant had remained obedient and faithful, would that covenant INCLUDING ALL ITS COMMANDMENTS UPON WHICH IT WAS BASED, have remained "everlasting" and "forever".

So to the question: "Whatever happened to forever?" - those who belong to Christ know the answer - "forever" and "everlasting" in that covenant's commandments WAS BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE, and so the entire covenant needed replacing.

God would NEVER have first promised the New Covenant and Christ would NOT have come to shed His blood as a remission of sins if that covenant and those commandments were fit for purpose - but they are NOT fit for purpose.

Jesus said:

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

He said,

Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself."


Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

NOT A LICENSE TO SIN

DEAD TO THE LAW

Rom 7:6 "But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST HAVE DIED TO THE LAW BECAUSE CHRIST ABOLISHED IT IN HIS FLESH WHEN HE DIED:

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the Law of commandments contained in ordinances) so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, making peace between them;"

DEAD TO SIN:

Rom 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know all of you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So the apostle John could write,

1John 2:1-3 "My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments."

WHICH COMMANDMENTS?

1. LOVE THE BRETHREN

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

2. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

Matt 19:17-19 "And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

He said to Him, Which?

Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."


IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."


3. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES (IT'S PART OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR)

Matt 5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

HOW DO WE KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?

Jesus told us how:

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."


AGAIN, IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Turning away from grace back to the Law and commandments of Moses will cause you to fall from grace:

John 1:17 "For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

JESUS REPRESENTS US BEFORE GOD, AND HE PERFECTLY OBEYED THE LAW OF MOSES AND ITS COMMANDMENTS ON OUR BEHALF - BECAUSE GOD'S ELECT WAS INCAPABLE OF OBEYING THEM, AND BROKE THE COVENANT.

THE LAWS OF MOSES AND THEIR COMMANDMENTS ARE FOREVER UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. CHRIST'S BLOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE FOREVER FIT FOR PURPOSE.
This seems like an interesting topic but there is a lot of information to absorb all at once. Is it possible to summarize the overall point you desire to make, in a paragraph or two?
 
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expos4ever

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Why would the Most High renege on His agreements? Why would the Most High make law "unfit" for man?
You are framing this issue in a somewhat slanted manner. I could equally well ask this question: Why would the Most High not be able to undertake a plan for redemption of the cosmos that entails particular stages that have both a beginning and an end?

I suggest that, framed this way, it is not at all hard to understand why the Law of Moses has been retired.
 
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expos4ever

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Actually dear friend all lawlessness is sin (Compare 1 JOHN 3:4 with other parrallel translations). Lawlessness means without law (disobedience to God's law). The bible definition of sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 Commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 and not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23. So yes dear friend if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we commit sin. This is shown by PAUL also in ROMANS 7:7.
There are a number of problems here. First, a clarification: When the author of 1 John declares that sin is "lawlessness", you cannot simply assume that the "law" in question is the Law of Moses.

Here are your problems:

1. James 2:10-11 does not define sin as breaking any one of the 10 commandments:

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

All the author is claiming here is that if you violate one element of the Law of Moses, you are a transgressor of the Law of Moses. It certainly does not logically following that sin is defined exclusively relative to the Law of Moses.

2. Romans 14:23, equally, does not support the notion that sin is only defined relative to the Law of Moses. Here is the text:


But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Where do you get the idea that sin is being defined relative to the Law of Moses?

3. Romans 7:7 does indeed connect knowledge of sin to the Law of Moses, but Paul is talking about the past:

I would not have come to know sin except through the Law...

Paul quite clearly looks to the Spirit now, not the Law as he did in the past.
 
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expos4ever

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The fact of the NT is the OT laws and precepts are frequently and repeatedly applied to the NT ekklesia, both the Jewish convert and the Gentile.
The fact that Paul occasionally obeys the Law of Moses can be explained by:

1. Pragmatics: even if he believes, as I am sure that he does, that the time of the Law is over, he does not want to offend his fellow Jews.

2. Timing: while Paul does indeed believe the Law is coming to an end, it's end is marked out in time by the very recent work of Jesus: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Given that this has just happened, there is a confusing transition period and, for practical reasons, Paul sometimes defers to the Law of Moses.

I am not sure I understand your "justification" and "righteousness" argument: For Paul, I believe these two concepts cash out to the same thing. And even if they don't I don't see how this distinction bears on the matter of whether the Law still applies.

Yes, Paul and James appeal to the Old Testament. But I see no texts where they indicate that the Law of Moses still applies going forward.
 
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expos4ever

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ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The logically necessary conclusion of what you're arguing is that we don't need that which is inspired by God and profitable to make us adequate and equipped. Surely you don't believe that. (???)
The fact that all scripture is inspired by God and is useful does not mean every command and edict applies eternally. Scripture presents an evolving redemption narrative - things change. Surely you believe in the "old covenant - new covenant" distinction? Well, if we used your "all scripture is inspired...." text the way you are using it against my position, such a distinction would dissolve. IOW, using your implied argument, someone could say that all the provisions of the old covenant remain in force since "ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"

Surely you don't believe this, do you?
 
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expos4ever

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This seems like an interesting topic but there is a lot of information to absorb all at once. Is it possible to summarize the overall point you desire to make, in a paragraph or two?
While this question was not directed at me, let me try to very concisely summarize my take on why the Law of Moses is now retired.

The Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only (this is abundantly clear even though some will vigorously deny it) as part of a grand redemption plan. That plan reached its climax at the Cross, hence the Law of Moses is no longer needed. And the guiding role that the Law played is now the role of the Holy Spirit.
 
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(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
Context and knowledge of how the Jews used cosmic imagery imagery is needed:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

As I have argued in detail elsewhere, the Israelite culture was such that "end of the world" language was often used as a metaphor for socio-political change. So while a literal reading supports the notion of an eternal law, a Biblically-informed reading does not. This will always be covered up by those with an agenda to cast Jesus as declaring that the Law will still apply going forward.

And, interestingly, what does Jesus declare on the cross?

"It is finished"

To the attentive reader, the connection to "until all is accomplished" (above) should be an "a-ha" moment.

Now then, why does Jesus then advocate obedience to the Law in verse 19? Well, the Law has not yet come to an end until the Cross where Jesus declares "it is finished".

In someone else's words, Jesus is saying this: Far from wanting to set aside the law and the prophets, it is my role to bring into being that to which they have pointed forward, to carry them on into a new era of fulfillment.
 
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Adamina

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This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them.

JESUS REPRESENTS US BEFORE GOD, AND HE PERFECTLY OBEYED THE LAW OF MOSES AND ITS COMMANDMENTS ON OUR BEHALF - BECAUSE GOD'S ELECT WAS INCAPABLE OF OBEYING THEM, AND BROKE THE COVENANT.

THE LAWS OF MOSES AND THEIR COMMAnDMENTS ARE FOREVER UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. CHRIST'S BLOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE FOREVER FIT FOR PURPOSE.
Interesting post and I would say it is controversial and can be very complicated, especially for newer Christians [along with Jews] coming to Christ.

Luke 16 has a rather interesting parable concerning a Richman and Lazarus.
[Lazarus is only mentioned in Luke and John of the Gospels]

What is different about this parable/story is that it mentions actually names.
Along with the already mentioned names, it includes Moses [OC Law] and Abraham [NC Grace].

Without going into too much detail about it and derailing the thread, it has been viewed as "covenantal"......Law[Moses] vs Grace[Abraham/Jesus]. Have you and/or others notice that?

Ezekiel 17:2 Son of adam! propound thou a riddle and speak thou a proverb/parable unto house of Israel
Matthew 13:35
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying "I will open My mouth in parables, I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." [Psalms 78:2 Ezekiel 17:2]

Here A Little, There A Little - Here a little, there a little - Index

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity..............................

.................So the Messiah first spoke a trio of related parables (the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son) to those gathered around him. They were designed to show the tax collectors and sinners (as well as the Pharisees) that God was concerned for them and that He would seek out the lost and welcome them into His family when they repented and turned back to Him.

The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the kingdom of God:[/quote]

LUKE 16:
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."

23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down my tongue, that I am being anquished in this flame".
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
==================================
The author of this site actually views the House of Judah as the rich man. which consisted of the tribes of Judah, Levi and surprisingly, Benjamin [Saul/Paul's tribe].
It is one of the very few places where a person is actually shown suffering in the flame of "Hades".
Thoughts?
 
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Zao is life

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Interesting post and I would say it is controversial and can be very complicated, especially for newer Christians [along with Jews] coming to Christ.

Luke 16 has a rather interesting parable concerning a Richman and Lazarus.
[Lazarus is only mentioned in Luke and John of the Gospels]

What is different about this parable/story is that it mentions actually names.
Along with the already mentioned names, it includes Moses [OC Law] and Abraham [NC Grace].

Without going into too much detail about it and derailing the thread, it has been viewed as "covenantal"......Law[Moses] vs Grace[Abraham/Jesus]. Have you and/or others notice that?



Here A Little, There A Little - Here a little, there a little - Index



We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the kingdom of God:
LUKE 16:
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."

23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down my tongue, that I am being anquished in this flame".
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
==================================
The author of this site actually views the House of Judah as the rich man. which consisted of the tribes of Judah, Levi and surprisingly, Benjamin [Saul/Paul's tribe].
It is one of the very few places where a person is actually shown suffering in the flame of "Hades".
Thoughts?
"They have Moses and the prophets" immediately brings to mind what Jesus said elsewhere:

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

And in the parable, it ends with these words:

"And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.

And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead."

Jesus said,

Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Jesus said to those who did not believe Him,

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, and you will not come to Me that you might have life."

So I've always believed that the parable was about those who disbelieve Jesus' words and the gospel.
 
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literaryjoe

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Thank you for your post and for your points.

The New Covenant does not invalidate the Word of God. It re-affirms it (see Jeremiah 31:31-33). That's why Paul said,

Gal 3:19, 21-24 "Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand.

Is the Law then against the promises of God? Let it not be said! For if a law had been given which could have given life, indeed righteousness would have been out of Law. But the Scripture shut up all under sin, so that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under Law, having been shut up to the faith about to be revealed. So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

The New Covenant does, indeed, re-affirm God's Word, and does not change or invalidate it. It does not take a body of instruction about which it is said, "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever." (Psalm 119:160 ESV) and cause it to no longer serve for the instruction of those who believe, or no longer comprise the truth, or no longer endure. In the very passage you just quoted (Gal 3) Paul is clear to affirm: "the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void" (3:17). By "promise" Paul refers to the Abrahamic covenant, and by Law he refers to the Mosaic law, which his opponents at the time believed justified and included one in the promises of salvation. This is what Paul is arguing: the law cannot/does not/is not intended to justify. I am confident that we are in agreement on that point, at least.

But the New Covenant also does not change the contents of the covenant. The radical change, the manner in which the New Covenant was unlike the Old Covenant, is that it was now God who was/is responsible to write His law (the same law, not a different or truncated one) on the hearts of His people. While previously the people were responsible to keep their promise, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient" (Ex 24:7), and to "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your (plural) heart, and be no longer stubborn" (Deu 10:16), now God is responsible, for he promises, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jer 31:33). You may note that it is the same promise God has been making all along, since Gen 17:7, Ex 6:7, Lev 26:12, etc: "And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be my people." It may also be helpful to notice that everything God says and does is to restore the state of Eden: "I will walk among you." Everything new is old again, to turn a common phrase on its head.

This promise never varies, it is in fact, the meta-goal of God's redemptive acts in history. "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God." (Revelation 21:3 ESV)

Likewise, God's character never changes, and similarly our perpetual command never changes: "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children." (Ephesians 5:1 NIV) How shall we know what God's character is? The Law, the Gospels, and the Spirit: a description, an example, and the "finger of God," which is writing His laws on our heart, rather than on stone tablets. When a body of instruction moves from stone tablets (description) to living tablets (our hearts) it does not go away and is not replaced, but is now quickened, or enlivened.

Nothing you say or which you quote changes the fact that Jesus and Paul made a summation of all the law, making it abundantly clear what laws they regarded as moral and eternally applicable, and how those laws were fulfilled only by Christ, and how they can be produced as CHRIST'S fruit only in those who abide in Christ and live by faith in Him and in His righteousness.

It should be patently obvious that a summation does not replace or alter: it summarizes. Just as the 10 Words summarize the "613" commandments of the Mosaic Law, and just as Micah summarizes the entire law with "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?", so does Jesus summarize all God's law with the "2 Great Commandments" and Paul summarizes them with, "For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:9-10 ESV)

You will notice, I hope, that the "fulfilling" does not replace or change the commandments, but keeps them. To summarize makes something easier to understand, to evaluate, to comprehend, to live in accord with. It never replaces or changes something.

So when we read in Deuteronomy: "When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it." (22:8), we are to consider ourselves instructed by that. Not threatened by losing our salvation if we do not do so, but taught what God would do in the scenario that people use their roofs in the same manner as we use our porch, deck, or balcony.

Furthermore, we are instructed on good government: there is no penalty for not building a parapet around your roof, unless someone falls from it, and then one is held guilty for failing to have properly (as God would have) loved their neighbor.

But in saying that only Christ can perfectly fulfill God's law, we would agree, but it is also helpful to note that God's expectation is that the "righteous requirements" of His law will be walked out or fulfilled "in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Rom 8:4)

And, because it is biblical, I would also agree that the fruit of God's Spirit, which is present only in those who abide in Christ, is what produces the "good deeds" which we were created and subsequently saved in order to walk in. (Eph 2:10)

So where do we disagree? You have been presenting a case for a complicated reading of Scripture which attempts to describe how one can read the Bible so as to believe that certain of God's laws have been done away with, and we are only now instructed (essentially) by that which is repeated in the New Testament. I am hoping you will come to see that one doesn't have to work so hard to understand the Bible. The Scriptures are clear: be imitators of God, just like beloved children yearn to imitate their fathers.

Everything in Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, tells us something about God's character, and we--not for our salvation, but in gratitude for it, and by virtue of its enabling--now seek to do what Jesus would do in any given situation, and every situation in Scripture is pertinent to our attempt to imitate Him.

The question of how does x or y apply in my time and place is admittedly complex, but that is what we have an entire Body for, and that is why we have a Head and His Spirit within us.

So my advice to you would be (if you will forgive the presumption): IF you see anyone attempting to earn their salvation by doing right, share with them the good news that salvation is by grace through faith in accepting the perfect life of Christ applied to their benefit. BUT, if you see anyone attempting to more perfectly imitate their Savior by living as He did (observing the calendar He observed, eating only those foods He ate, etc.) out of their love for Him, bless them in their journey, and look to collaborate with them, as there are most certainly areas where you are more perfectly walking in the Spirit and areas where they are more perfectly walking in the Spirit, and we are both called to "exhort one another daily, and all the more as we see the Day approaching."
 
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Yes, Jesus often refers to the Law of Moses, because He was under the Law of Moses - but He sums all the law up for us as follows:

Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets:

Mat 22:37-39 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Matt 7:12 "Therefore all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, do even so to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Matt 11:13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

John 5:39-40 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, and you will not come to Me that you might have life."
Did those laws exist prior to the writing down of the Mosaic code? Was not the Law of Moses simply the codification of commands, precepts, and laws that already existed? Are these laws not simply an expression of the moral design and structures of creation?
 
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