The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

Josheb · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
If the Ruach Ha'Kodesh is leading you; you will not stray from the law.

You do know there are no extra points for using Hebrew in an English-speaking forum, yes? Especially not when referencing texts written in Aramaic and Greek, You understand this, right?

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Josheb said:
ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

When this was written the NT wasn't even cannon. It was speaking of the TaNaK.

pasifika · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
No it wasn't dear friend your post was claiming I was taking scripture out of context and making claims I never said (strawman). This was proven false by showing context showing that through the law is the knowledge of what sin is. Of course God's law is in force today if there was no law there would be no knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTREOUSNESS as shown in the new covenant scriptures *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 8:1-4. etc etc.

Let's follow your interpretation of the scriptures through...

1. If there is no Law we have no knowledge of what sin is.
2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is then we do not know we are sinners in need of a Saviour
3. If we have no need of a Saviour we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and lost.

The scripture is then fulfilled "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" ROMANS 2:12.

Can you see where your interpretation of the scriptures is leading you dear friend? This is why JESUS said to the Scribes and Pharisees "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick but go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." MATTHEW 9:12-13

How are you going to know your sick if you have no mirror? God's LAW is the mirror that leads us to the great Physician and leads us to the cross so we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25 and faith does not abolish God's law it establishes it *ROMANS 3:31.

Hope this helps.

God's law is in the mind of every humans... Romans 7:25

Josheb · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
Some how there were scales on my eyes when I read past this little gem for all these years.

(CLV) Mt 5:48
You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It's like a missing bookend.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

Christianity has long understood the reciprocal nature of sin:

We sin because we're sinful and we're sinful because we sin.

Sin is both a disposition and and act. This is one of the reasons the Jewish leaders failed to understand both John the baptizer and Jesus.

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

Josheb said:
You do know you don't get any points for using Hebrew in an English-speaking forum, yes? Especially not when referencing texts written in Aramaic and Greek, You understand this, right?

\

Maybe you don't realize that I'm not looking for points from men. I don't use Pagan words to describe that which is kadosh. Maybe those who use Pagan words will start using Hebrew words, if they see them in context enough to learn what they mean.

Shalom

Josheb · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God....

Yes, but the Law of Moses was written. So was Tanakh. Who and what is Paul referencing in Romans 10:13-14?

Josheb · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually dear friend all lawlessness is sin (Compare 1 JOHN 3:4 with other parrallel translations).

Which is exactly and identical to part of what I posted. You just quoted me doing so.

LoveGodsWord said:
Lawlessness means without law (disobedience to God's law). The bible definition of sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 Commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 and not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23. So yes dear friend if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we commit sin. This is shown by PAUL also in ROMANS 7:7.

You are not addressing the other very relevant content of that post. You are therefore not furthering the conversation. That's not very friendly.

Law-breaking is not the only measure of sin. Thinking law-breaking is the only means of sin leads to an incomplete understanding of sin. An incomplete understanding of sin, in turn, leads to an incomplete understanding of both human condition and need and the work of Christ.

YouAreAwesome · Apr 25, 2020

Kaon said:
Why would the Most High renege on His agreements? Why would the Most High make law "unfit" for man?

Because God never wanted the law, the people did.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

Josheb said:
Great argument but two points are worth making.

First, the third premise in the "syllogism" should read, "3. If we have no knowledge of needing a Savior we have no salvation..."

Second, the same guy who declared he would not know sin were it not for the law also wrote,

Romans 2:12-16
"12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

So the written law is not necessary to know you've sinned. God's law is written on the human heart. Creation itself is moral and there are consequences for sin both temporally and eternally. Just a few sentences earlier Paul had written all men.

"suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Rom. 1:18-20). That part about "since the creation" would be before any written ever word existed.

Actually the scriptures your providing do not say or support the idea anywhere that I can see that a knowledge of God's LAW is not required to understand what sin is. PAUL makes it very clear in...

ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

So there is no confusion as to what PAUL is saying...

ROMANS 7:7 [7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

PAUL is saying here that through God's LAW (10 commandments) we have a knowledge of what sin is. JAMES agrees with PAUL here..

JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. Now if you COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

and JOHN agrees with both PAUL and JAMES here...

1 JOHN 3:4 [4], WHOEVER COMMITS SIN TRANSGRESSES ALSO THE LAW: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

ROMANS 2:12-13 that you provided earlier also supports all the above scripture by saying

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12] FOR ALL WHO HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW WILL ALSO PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW, AND ALL WHO HAVE SINNED UNDER THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; [13] for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

While ROMANS 2:14-16 is showing that it is not an outward observance of the LAW but an inward heart experience that is acceptable to God. PAUL is not saying here that GENTILES are keeping God's LAW he is showing in ROMANS 2 and ROMANS 3 that all both JEW AND GENTILE are all under sin and no one does good and no one us justified by the deeds of the law but we are all one in Christ justified by Faith. *ROMANS 2:12-13; ROMANS 3:9-30. Paul goes on however and closes by saying and making it perfectly clear that Faith does not abolish Gods LAW it establishes Gods LAW..

ROMANS 3:31 [31], DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

pasifika said:
Hello LGW, why do we need to know sin if like sin is our master? Christ is what we need to know and everything that is Not of that knowledge is sin...The law only show us our sins...well we do not need to know sin because we already infected by it But we need to know our Savior so we can know how to get saved...

JESUS is the living Word of God dear pasifika. We know JESUS as we seek him through his Word and we as believe and follow it. If we have no law according to the scriptures we have no knowledge of what sin is as it is written in ROMANS 2:12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law and through the law is the knowledge of sin *ROMANS 3:20. God's LAW leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith and free to walk in God's Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12. This is all summed up in 1 JOHN 5:3-4 and MATTHEW 22:36-40.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Because God never wanted the law, the people did.

Oh goodness. Scripture please.. you mean God never wanted a King?

pasifika · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
If the Ruach Ha'Kodesh is leading you; you will not stray from the law.

What law? The law that requires faith or the law that requires work?

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Because God never wanted the law, the people did.

LOL!

(CLV) Jn 14:6
Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me.

==================================================
THE WAY
==================================================

(CLV) Ex 18:20
You will warn them with the statutes and the laws and make known to them the way in which they shall go and the deeds which they shall do.

(CLV) Dt 10:12
And now, Israel, what is Yahweh your Elohim asking of you, save to fear Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love Him and to serve Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul,

(CLV) Jos 22:5
But observe meticulously to keep the instruction and the law that M woses the servant of Yahweh enjoined on you: to love Yahweh your Elohim and to walk in all His ways, to observe His instructions, to cling to Him and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) 1Ki 2:3
You will keep the charge of Yahweh your Elohim to walk in His ways, to observe His statutes and His instructions, His ordinances and His testimonies as written in the law of Moses, so that you may act intelligently in all that you do and everywhere that you turn around,

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Mal 2:8
Yet you withdraw from the way. You cause many to stumble at the law. You ruin the covenant of Levi, says Yahweh of hosts.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

==================================================
THE TRUTH
==================================================

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

(CLV) Mal 2:6
The law of truth, it came to be in his mouth, and iniquity, it was not found on his lips. In peace and in uprightness he walked with Me, and turned many back from depravity.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

==================================================
THE LIFE
==================================================

(CLV) Jb 33:30
To restore his soul from the pit, To enlighten him with the light of the living.

(CLV) Ps 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light shall we see light.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life

===============================================
THE LIGHT
==================================================

(CLV) Jn 8:12
Again, then, Jesus speaks to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He who is following Me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life."

(CLV) Jb 24:13
They are among those revolting against the light; They neither recognize its ways Nor dwell in its tracks.

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 51:4
Attend to Me, My people, And, My folk, give ear to Me! For a law shall go forth from Me, And My judgment for a light of the peoples.

(CLV) 2Co 6:14
Do not become diversely yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what communion has light with darkness?

(CLV) 1Jn 1:7
Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.

==================================================
THE WORD
===============================================

(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

Josheb said:
Which is exactly and identical to part of what I posted. You just quoted me doing so.

You are not addressing the other very relevant content of that post. You are therefore not furthering the conversation. That's not very friendly.

Law-breaking is not the only measure of sin. Thinking law-breaking is the only means of sin leads to an incomplete understanding of sin. An incomplete understanding of sin, in turn, leads to an incomplete understanding of both human condition and need and the work of Christ.

Your making strawman arguments dear friend no one is arguing about. Who ever said that only breaking God's 10 Commandments is sin? Not me and if I didn't make such an argument why are you pretending that I am? I posted that sin is defined in God's Word as both breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing God's Word *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 14:23

HARK! · Apr 25, 2020

pasifika said:
What law? The law that requires faith or the law that requires work?

Would you like the truth that hurts, or the truth that makes you free?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

Josheb said:
Yes, but the Law of Moses was written. So was Tanakh. Who and what is Paul referencing in Romans 10:13-14?

Your kind of all over the place here dear friend my answer to your question with the scriptures provided was in reference to your claims about Abraham as you wrote..

Josheb said: ↑ How then was Abraham saved? The gospel was preached to him and he was justified by faith and made righteous but he had no written word.

Which was replied with.. Before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God *GENESIS 3:1-3; 9; 11-19 8:15; 9:8; 24:7; 31:11 etc). God's people were saved in exactly the same way that we are today although the process is different of course (no more sin offerings that pointed to JESUS) and that is by faith *see HEBREWS 11 as it is written ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MAY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS. *GENESIS 26:5

.............

ROMANS 10:13-14 [13], For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.[14], How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The scripture in GENESIS 26:5 shows that ABRAHAM had the "spoken Word of God" before the written Word of God that came latter. Have a look at the Hebrew word used in LAWS you will see it is Torah. Abraham also offered burn't offerings for atonement of sin *see LEVITICUS 1:4 which fortold of the coming of JESUS the true sin offering that takes away the sins of the world.

Hope this is helpful

literaryjoe · Apr 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them.

I wonder if you would be willing to acknowledge that the claim "This is ... the theology of Christ and His apostles." is rather astonishingly audacious? What if you were to say, "The following is what I understand Christ and the apostles to be saying..."?

I also stumble on the claim, "This is not really controversial Christian theology..." because, well, it is controversial. In order to demonstrate, I have chosen to quote just a few trustworthy and well-known Christian scholars.

Donald Bloesch, for example, observed:

“[T]heir stringent separation of law and gospel prevents them from acknowledging the unity and complementarity of law and gospel. …
Paradoxically hand in hand with the opening to works–righteousness is an antinomian strand that views Christians in the church age or age of grace as under the gospel only and not also under the law. The law is something that is done away with, though the moral teachings of Jesus in the New Testament continue to have force." (Donald G. Bloesch. The Last Things: Resurrection, Judgment, Glory. InterVarsity Press, 2004. 96–97.)

You see, Bloesch recognizes that historic Christianity has always believed:

…the Christian is saved by grace alone but for the purpose of living a holy life. Our responsibility is not simply to receive and believe but to take up the cross and follow Christ in costly discipleship." (Ibid, 97)

J.I. Packer, points out in his book, Growing in Christ, that:

"the love-or-law antithesis is false, just as the down-grading of law is perverse. Love and law are not opponents but allies, forming together the axis of true morality. Law needs love as its drive, else we get the Pharisaism that puts principles before people and says one can be perfectly good without actually loving one’s neighbor…. And love needs law as its eyes, for love (Christian agape as well as sexual eros) is blind. To want to love someone Christianly does not of itself tell you how to do it. Only as we observe the limits set by God’s law can we really do people good." (Crossway Books, 1996. p 232)

Later in the same book, Packer highlights the key to maintaining a proper perspective on the Law is to:

"Keep two truths in view. First, God’s law expresses his character. It reflects his own behavior; it alerts us to what he will love and hate to see in us. It is a recipe for holiness, consecrated conformity to God, which is his true image in man. And as such (this is the second truth) God’s law fits human nature. As cars, being made as they are, only work well with gas in the tank, so we, being made as we are, only find fulfillment in a life of law-keeping. This is what we were both made and redeemed for." (Ibid, 279, 280)

With this same perspective in mind, John Calvin remarked,

"If it cannot be denied that it [the Law] contains a perfect pattern of righteousness, then, unless we ought not to have any proper rule of life, it must be impious to discard it." (Institutes of the Christian Religion, II, vii, 13.)

Sinclair Ferguson reminds us of the traditional Christian view:

"This is why…the law of God is seen to play such an important role in sanctification. Its three functions or uses are well known: to convict of sin, to restrain evildoers and to instruct believers." (Christian Spirituality: Five Views of Sanctification. InterVarsity Press, 1988. 68-69.)

Lest anyone be tempted to think this is a strictly Reformed view, let's turn to John Wesley, well known as an Arminian theologian:

"I am afraid this great and important truth is little understood, not only by the world, but even by many whom God hath taken out of the world, who are real children of God by faith. Many of these lay it down as an unquestioned truth, that when we come to Christ, we have done with the law; and that, in this sense, “Christ is the end of the law to every one that believeth.” “The end of the law:” so he is, “for righteousness,” for justification, “to every one that believeth.” Herein the law is at an end. It justifies none, but only brings them to Christ; who is also, in another respect, the end or scope of the law, — the point at which it continually aims. But when it has brought us to him it has yet a farther office, namely, to keep us with him. For it is continually exciting all believers, the more they see of its height, and depth, and length, and breadth, to exhort one another so much the more, —

Closer and closer let us cleave
To his beloved Embrace;
Expect his fullness to receive,
And grace to answer grace."
(Sermon 34)

You see, the valid question is not if the law of God (from Genesis to Revelation) continues to instruct the redeemed, but how it is to do so.

The Westminster Confession, the London Baptist Confession, and the 39 Articles of Religion all agree that:

"The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral."

So, if brothers and sisters in Christ would like to disagree over which God-given instructions qualify as "moral" this is understandable, as nothing in Scripture specifically designates: this is moral, this is not. But, if a brother or sister suggests that the law of God has been in any way done away with: they are very, very much on controversial ground.

I believe I have worked out a helpful way of recognizing the prescriptive nature of all God's laws (in that they show us what His character would do in a given situation) without making the mistake of attempting to wholesale adopt teaching that includes both enduring principles and specific case-sensitive instructions, but that would be the topic of another post.

pasifika · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
JESUS is the living Word of God dead pasifika. We know JESUS as we seek him through his Word and we as believe and follow it. If we have no law according to the scriptures we have no knowledge of what sin is as it is written in ROMANS 2:12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law and through the law is the knowledge of sin *ROMANS 3:20. God's LAW leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith and free to walk in God's Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12. This is all summed up in 1 JOHN 5:3-4 and MATTHEW 22:36-40.

Hope this is helpful.

Hello LGW, yes Jesus is the living Word of God. So let us hear him from his own breath..love one another... that's all because the one who love knows God and God lives in them. Simple...even an ordinary man can understand it and follow it.

Josheb · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
When this was written the NT wasn't even cannon. It was speaking of the TaNaK.

Yep. It's likely the epistolary was also in reference, but you're correct: Paul is speaking of the OT.

Which means the Tanakh is inspired by God and profitable for training in righteousness of the ekklesia, making us adequate and equipped for every good work.

Josheb · Apr 25, 2020

HARK! said:
Maybe you don't realize that I'm not looking for points from men. I don't use Pagan words to describe that which is kadosh.

No, you use the words of adulterous and idolatrous covenant-breakers.

The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

Christian

שמע

Well-Known Member

Christian

שמע

Christian

Christian

☝✌

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

שמע

Well-Known Member

שמע

Well-Known Member

Vintage

Well-Known Member

Christian

Christian

Similar threads