THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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FineLinen

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As has been shown earlier dear friend I have not failed anything. I have simply shared Gods' Word. I am not sure if you are having a hard time following or not. As posted earlier the point being made is that
aidios, aiōnios plural or singular is not relavant to my argument

As a matter of fact it is very much relevant. It is not possible to translate aiōnios as eternal. The foundation for the adjective is rooted in the noun which is aion and can be clearly shown to be age lasting as in ages.

Kolasis aionion -Matthew 25:46-

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”

“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:

“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”

Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:

“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:

“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”

The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:

“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”

Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”

It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”

Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,

“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,

“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”

It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.

The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”

The Concordant Version (1930):

“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:

“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”

Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,

“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976

has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”

Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has

"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”

The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”
 
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FineLinen

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To Destroy =

“The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free.

Now this word ‘destroy’ does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect.

When Christ took the keys from the prison keeper he, Satan, lost all power and authority. Christ made his office of no effect (Heb. 2:14 & 15).

While prophets of doom forecast calamity and destruction, the mind of Christ speaks and lights our world with the vision of universal restoration and reconciliation.

Paul told of a great victory where every knee would bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Paul did not say that only a small number will bow and confess, but he said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. And no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. What a glorious day that will be when every foot steps forth in the river of life up to the ankle, and from the ankle up to the knee.

Every knee shall bow!

We are not an accident!

We are not a mistake!

No one has been overlooked by the Creator.

All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.

When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river.” -Don Bruce-
 
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LoveGodsWord

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As a matter of fact it is very much relevant. It is not possible to translate aiōnios as eternal. The foundation for the adjective is rooted in the noun which is aion and can be clearly shown to be age lasting as in ages.

Kolasis aionion -Matthew 25:46-

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”

“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:

“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”

Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:

“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:

“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”

The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:

“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”

Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”

It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”

Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,

“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,

“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”

It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.

The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”

The Concordant Version (1930):

“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:

“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”

Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,

“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976

has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”

Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has

"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”

The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

What a load of nonsense and waffle dear FINE. Let's humour you for a bit as I can see your still trying to blow smoke screens not relevant to the points being made to you. Let leave out to word "eternal" and use for example "age" so does this change the meaning that the scripture is conveying and that all translation agree on that at the second coming the wicked will be destroyed and are you triyng to argue that every greek scholar and translater has it wrong and has incorrectly translated 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and only your interpretation is not in error?

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS OF 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9

New International Version
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

New Living Translation
They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

English Standard Version
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New American Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

New King James Version
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Christian Standard Bible
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from his glorious strength

Contemporary English Version
Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.

Good News Translation
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength

International Standard Version
Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power

NET Bible
They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

New Heart English Bible
who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For they will be paid in judgment: eternal destruction from the face of our Lord and from the glory of his power,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power.

New American Standard 1977
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James 2000 Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American King James Version
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

American Standard Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Darby Bible Translation
who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

English Revised Version
who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Webster's Bible Translation
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Weymouth New Testament
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

World English Bible
who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Young's Literal Translation
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

............

As posted earlier eternal (αἰώνιον; aiōnion) destruction (ὄλεθρον; olethron) is not changed in the overall conext to the meaning of the scripture which is the destruction of the wicked at the second coming.

Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances and the teachings of men that lead us away from the Word of God as there is no more second chances at the second coming dear Fine.

Also do not forget dear friend that the CONTEXT of 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 is 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10 which is God's "VENGENCE" and punishment to the wicked. No more smoke screens please dear friend. Come outside and smell the fresh air of God's Word and drink of his living waters.

Hope this helps
 
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LoveGodsWord

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To Destroy =

“The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free.
Now this word ‘destroy’ does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect.

Nonsense dear Fine, your drinking from polluted waters that are not the water of life that JESUS leads his sheep to drink. Where did I ever say annihilate? If I never made such claims why pretend that I have? This as well is simply more smoke that needs to be blown away dear friend.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G3639
DESTRUCTION ὄλεθρος; olethros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy ; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3639: ὀλέθριος
ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (in secular authors also of three term., as in Wis. 18:15) (ὄλεθρος), from (Homer), Herodotus down, destructive, deadly: δίκην, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Lachmann text
STRONGS NT 3639: ὄλεθροςὄλεθρος, ὄλεθρον (ὄλλυμι to destroy (perhaps (ὀλνυμι) allied to Latinvulnus)), from Homer down, rain, destruction, death: 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 1 Timothy 6:9; εἰς ὄλεθρον τῆς σαρκός, for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed, 1 Corinthians 5:5 (see παραδίδωμι, 2); equivalent to the loss of a life of blessedness after death, future misery, αἰώνιος (as 4 Macc. 10:15): 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (where L text ὀλέθριον, which see), cf. Wis. 1:1
 
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Actually no dear friend that is not true your mixing up free will with God's power to save a sinner.

God's will to save sinners overcomes sinners' will to reject God. Again, you need to disclose what you understand the total victory of Christ to be, a matter of which I remain unclear.

Let's test your interpretation of the scriptures. Mankind has no free will.

No, my point was that man's exercise of his alleged 'free will' under Adam leads to death, because his will is overborne by sin, the world and the devil. This is the recurrent theme throughout the scripture of Israel's failure, and why indeed a saviour was needed. Because man can't get to God by the law. I'm not even going to debate this point, it's so fundamental. You think you're a righteous Christian, well the Pharisees thought they were doing it right too.

So the scriptures you gave speak of the power of heaven that's given to believers to overcome by grace, faith and love. So God loves us first and we respond accordingly.

Is there any reason your only part quoting me here dear friend? How do your words posted here address the scriptures in the post you are quoting from? I asked you in this section of the post do you know these scriptures and what do you think they mean? As posted in the post you are quoting from you avoided answering this question and started talking about something entirely off topic to what you were quoting from. Never mind if you did not know the scriptures or did not want to answer the question just say so. You have "free will" to do as you please. As shown through the scriputres earlier which shows how you mix up free will with God's power for salvation. As posted to someone else earlier God is a God of love and mercy but he is also a God of justice and judgement and this is the reason why he sent JESUS to die on the cross for our sins and is where we see God's great love for us both personally and collectively. If God was not a God of judgement and Justice JESUS would not have had to come to pay man's penalty for sin so that we can receive Gods' Gift of eternal life and reconciliation. I see God's love in all of this, even in his justice don't you?

Idk what we were saying. Bottom line is, to know Him is to love Him. So if you don't love Him, it's because you don't know Him. Solution? He reveals who He is, and then the heart melts like wax, the sinner is born again by fire and the Spirit, the knee bends and the tongue confesses. Purification and healing can start.

Not really dear Shrewd. The above are your words and not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures subject matter here is in relation to continuing in known unrepentant sin after we have received a knowledge of the truth of God’s Word.

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

This entire book/ sermon is preached to Hebrew Christians who are considering abandoning the faith and reverting to the Torah. The passage in question is an example of prophetic rhetoric. This can be seen by the reference to Deut 32:35-36:

'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.' "For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.

So retribution that leads to restoration, aka corrective punishment. Retributive language for a restorative purpose. God is passionate, and Paul's speaking the language of passion to ppl who understood it. Also seen here:

Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts, The Mighty One of Israel, declares, "Ah, I will be relieved of My adversaries And avenge Myself on My foes. "I will also turn My hand against you, And will smelt away your dross as with lye And will remove all your alloy. "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."
(Isa 1:24-26)

Say to those with anxious heart, "Take courage, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance; The recompense of God will come, But He will save you." Then the eyes of the blind will be opened And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer, And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy. For waters will break forth in the wilderness And streams in the Arabah. (Isa 35:4-6)

So I daresay, unlike the humble modern protestant, the ancient Hebe had some knowledge that God's wrath (although a fearful thing) was ultimately corrective (because He loves us). Further to this, as we see later in Hebrews, Paul explains in prose as to what he's saying here in Ch.12:4-11, a passage editorially described as 'God disciplines His Children', and concludes: "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (v.11)

Again, Paul concludes the chapter with 'for our God is a consuming fire' (Heb 12:29), referencing Deut 4:24, wherein God warns Israel of the consequences of idolatry, leading them into great distress etc, and then:

For the LORD your God is a merciful God; He will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which He swore to them by oath (Deut 4:31)

This consuming fire theme is expounded in other scriptures, such as Jer 5:3 and Zeph 5:8-9, which clarify that the fire of God's wrath is to destroy the sinful rubbish and produce repentance. Surely it's not pleasant, but it's there to destroy the sin and deliver the sinner transformed.

And what covenant was that? Could it be the covenant with Abraham that all the nations of the world shall be blessed (Gen 22:18), guaranteed by the new covenant (Heb 7:22), and delivered in Revelation, where the nations after being given over to the tribulation will it says worship God (Rev 15:4), and after being consumed by heavenly fire (Rev 20:9) and/or cast into the Lake of Fire (20:15), then emerge to walk in the light of the New City and bring their gifts (21:24-26), and then receive healing from the tree of life (22:2)?

So before you rush enthusiastically into casting God as the 'Reject me and I'll dump you' type, maybe have a little think about true love, and how covenantal love works. That's where trust and belief start.
 
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FineLinen

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What a load of nonsense and waffle dear FINE. Let's humour you for a bit as I can see your still trying to blow smoke screens not relevant to the points being made to you. Let leave out to word "eternal" and use for example "age" so does this change the meaning that the scripture is conveying and that all translation agree on that at the second coming the wicked will be destroyed and are you triyng to argue that every greek scholar and translater has it wrong and has incorrectly translated 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and only your interpretation is not in error?

As a matter of fact there are translators of koine who are dead on in their translation of aionios and aidios, like Rotherham & YLT, and my dear friend Jonathan Mitchell whose translation has taken him over 22 years.

Everything our Father Abba does results in permanence of change & transformation.

The radical ALL!

What is the meaning of propitiation?

What it is not = the appeasing of an angry deity.

Our word for today is hilaskomai.

The ghastly idea of propitiating an angry deity was used by the Greeks in making the gods propitious & something to be earned first. It is foreign in the N.T. & Septuagint Scriptures!

Hilaskomai actually means reconciliation, a covering as in the words kaphar & kopher, IOW our Father Abba’s Mercy Seat.

His love & grace reaching out to enfold us into Himself.

“He is the at-one-ment for our sins & NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the whole world.”

Hilasmos = atonement

We have a Priest-Friend in the Presence of Abba. He has solved the sin problem for good, not only ours, but the sins of the whole/pas world.

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!
 
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James A

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IS OUR SALVATION DETERMINED BEFORE THE 2ND COMING OR AFTER?

It depends. God through His timeless nature knows who are saved even before the foundation of Earth was laid. (Eph 1:4). However, for humans, this will be secret until the Judgement day. There is nothing wrong about us being confident in Lord that we will be saved but I would not take it for granted.
 
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James A

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It depends. God through his timeless nature knows who are saved even before the foundation of Earth was laid. (Eph 1:4). However, for us humans, this will be secret until the Judgement day. There is nothing wrong about us being confident in Lord that we will be Saved but I would not take it for granted.
 
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Nonsense dear Fine, your drinking from polluted waters that are not the water of life that JESUS leads his sheep to drink. Where did I ever say annihilate? If I never made such claims why pretend that I have? This as well is simply more smoke that needs to be blown away dear friend.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G3639
DESTRUCTION ὄλεθρος; olethros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy ; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3639: ὀλέθριος
ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (in secular authors also of three term., as in Wis. 18:15) (ὄλεθρος), from (Homer), Herodotus down, destructive, deadly: δίκην, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Lachmann text
STRONGS NT 3639: ὄλεθροςὄλεθρος, ὄλεθρον (ὄλλυμι to destroy (perhaps (ὀλνυμι) allied to Latinvulnus)), from Homer down, rain, destruction, death: 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 1 Timothy 6:9; εἰς ὄλεθρον τῆς σαρκός, for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed, 1 Corinthians 5:5 (see παραδίδωμι, 2); equivalent to the loss of a life of blessedness after death, future misery, αἰώνιος (as 4 Macc. 10:15): 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (where L text ὀλέθριον, which see), cf. Wis. 1:1

Good protestants always want to be as literal as possible with scripture, especially the rhetorical and figurative parts.

If you begin with the idea of a god who abandons creation, then you're going to rope together some writings apparently in support.

But what does Jesus mean when he says 'Lest a grain of wheat fall to earth and die, it produces no fruit (Jn 12:24), and Paul saying 'Die to self live to Christ'? Peter explains: 'He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.' (1 Pet 2:24).

So death and destruction of the sinful self. Why? In order to bring forth the new man in Christ.

It's not rocket surgery mate.

So again, in Olethros as its used we have a reference to destruction of the sinful parts of man. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

It's the same story, man rejects God and follows idols, consequences ensue (tribulation/ wrath of God), and man cries out for help. God loves man, so He doesn't abandon him, but fixes him in what can be a very arduous and painful process of sanctification/ purification.

And for those who still don't want it - let them be vile still, how long do you think they can hold out? God's irresistible grace will slowly but surely drag them in. The Hound of Heaven never misses, He's got the words of life, the water of life, life abundant, life aeonian. So who wants to hang out in the pigsty forever?
 
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So, Still no answer to my questions in post #253?

Really?


I'll ask again.....

Why do we "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" if everyone is going to be in heaven anyway?

Why evangelize?
Why give testimony?
Why witness to people?
Why let our lives shine like Christ?
Why pray for our lost loved ones?
Why even have churches and pastors and missionaries?

Why.... we're all just going to all be there in the end anyway....

Well, I preach the gospel because it's good news. No matter how you dress it up, threatening ppl with eternal damnation ain't good news, it's spiritual abuse and psychological manipulation. And should be illegal even under common law imho.

I evangelise because I want ppl to be free from their bondage to sin and glorify God. This can only happen if they trust in God. It's just not possible to trust someone who you believe might torture you forever.

I give testimony in an effort to plant the seed that God is good beyond measure. Because that's my testimony.

Can we let our lives shine like Christ when we're traversing land an sea just to make new converts into the same sons of hell we are? That kind of rubbish preaching would have been rejected by Jew (who knew of God's jealous passion) and Greek (who'd spot the clumsy artifice a mile off).

I pray for all to come to a knowledge of God and know the truth, which will set them free, and cast off the shackles of fear and the power of death.

Churches and missionaries are to glorify God and bring the Kingdom to earth. Not for granting indulgences in the form of credit points towards afterlife fire indemnity.

Ppl gain entry to the New Jerusalem (that's heaven on earth, if you prefer) once listed in the Lamb's Book of Life, which occurs upon purification (Rev 21:27). So a process of renewal needs to occur in order for reconciliation to take place, and that process might be painful. What's so hard to understand? Why else would the nations walk by it's light, the Pearly Gates never close, the Spirit and the Bride say 'Come get the water', the leaves of the tree be to heal the nations?

Bro, you're unfortunately on the horns of a pagan heresy there. Every pagan deity and its dog threatens unbelievers with damnation. We don't just say our God is the same but bigger smh. THERE IS NONE LIKE HIM:
13 Bible verses about No One Is Like God
 
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None of that is controversial except that you think it also applies to the dead.

Jesus raises the dead. Death and hades give up their dead to be judged. They are judged to be in need of life (ie their names are not in the Lamb's Book). So they are cast into the LoF for purification in order to receive life.
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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Jesus raises the dead. Death and hades give up their dead to be judged. They are judged to be in need of life (ie their names are not in the Lamb's Book). So they are cast into the LoF for purification in order to receive life.
Since I don’t know Greek can you elaborate this word in Hebrews 9:27 “κρίσις” please?

I also have more questions if you are willing to answer.
 
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Since I don’t know Greek can you elaborate this word in Hebrews 9:27 “κρίσις” please?

I also have more questions if you are willing to answer.

Seems we share a 'critical' lack of Greek. But I don't think there's any real magic to it. Man dies, then he's judged. God's judgments save, because salvation's His right arm, they're righteous judgments, they 'set things right'.
Strong's Greek: 2920. κρίσις (krisis) -- a decision, judgment

Implies separating sin from the sinner. Cause He loves the sinner, hates the sin. And He is the Great Physician who is able to cure leprousy, blindness, lameness, even death. And He loves it, the God of life. Making any sense?
 
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Seems we share a 'critical' lack of Greek. But I don't think there's any real magic to it. Man dies, then he's judged. God's judgments save, because salvation's His right arm, they're righteous judgments, they 'set things right'.
Strong's Greek: 2920. κρίσις (krisis) -- a decision, judgment

Implies separating sin from the sinner. Cause He loves the sinner, hates the sin. And He is the Great Physician who is able to cure leprousy, blindness, lameness, even death. And He loves it, the God of life. Making any sense?
How do you see the wedding garment described in Matthew 22:1-14?

When you die to yourself, it’s fine to cast off the whole of the old because you’re redefined as the new creation. But in hades a person can’t be defined by their name, their family relations, their friendships, their house or possessions, none of that remains.

So what is the core essence of “the sinner” that will be saved if none of the old man remains?
 
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God's will to save sinners overcomes sinners' will to reject God. Again, you need to disclose what you understand the total victory of Christ to be, a matter of which I remain unclear.



No, my point was that man's exercise of his alleged 'free will' under Adam leads to death, because his will is overborne by sin, the world and the devil. This is the recurrent theme throughout the scripture of Israel's failure, and why indeed a saviour was needed. Because man can't get to God by the law. I'm not even going to debate this point, it's so fundamental. You think you're a righteous Christian, well the Pharisees thought they were doing it right too.

So the scriptures you gave speak of the power of heaven that's given to believers to overcome by grace, faith and love. So God loves us first and we respond accordingly.



Idk what we were saying. Bottom line is, to know Him is to love Him. So if you don't love Him, it's because you don't know Him. Solution? He reveals who He is, and then the heart melts like wax, the sinner is born again by fire and the Spirit, the knee bends and the tongue confesses. Purification and healing can start.



This entire book/ sermon is preached to Hebrew Christians who are considering abandoning the faith and reverting to the Torah. The passage in question is an example of prophetic rhetoric. This can be seen by the reference to Deut 32:35-36:

'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.' "For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.

So retribution that leads to restoration, aka corrective punishment. Retributive language for a restorative purpose. God is passionate, and Paul's speaking the language of passion to ppl who understood it. Also seen here:

Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts, The Mighty One of Israel, declares, "Ah, I will be relieved of My adversaries And avenge Myself on My foes. "I will also turn My hand against you, And will smelt away your dross as with lye And will remove all your alloy. "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."
(Isa 1:24-26)

Say to those with anxious heart, "Take courage, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance; The recompense of God will come, But He will save you." Then the eyes of the blind will be opened And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame will leap like a deer, And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy. For waters will break forth in the wilderness And streams in the Arabah. (Isa 35:4-6)

So I daresay, unlike the humble modern protestant, the ancient Hebe had some knowledge that God's wrath (although a fearful thing) was ultimately corrective (because He loves us). Further to this, as we see later in Hebrews, Paul explains in prose as to what he's saying here in Ch.12:4-11, a passage editorially described as 'God disciplines His Children', and concludes: "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (v.11)

Again, Paul concludes the chapter with 'for our God is a consuming fire' (Heb 12:29), referencing Deut 4:24, wherein God warns Israel of the consequences of idolatry, leading them into great distress etc, and then:

For the LORD your God is a merciful God; He will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which He swore to them by oath (Deut 4:31)

This consuming fire theme is expounded in other scriptures, such as Jer 5:3 and Zeph 5:8-9, which clarify that the fire of God's wrath is to destroy the sinful rubbish and produce repentance. Surely it's not pleasant, but it's there to destroy the sin and deliver the sinner transformed.

And what covenant was that? Could it be the covenant with Abraham that all the nations of the world shall be blessed (Gen 22:18), guaranteed by the new covenant (Heb 7:22), and delivered in Revelation, where the nations after being given over to the tribulation will it says worship God (Rev 15:4), and after being consumed by heavenly fire (Rev 20:9) and/or cast into the Lake of Fire (20:15), then emerge to walk in the light of the New City and bring their gifts (21:24-26), and then receive healing from the tree of life (22:2)?

So before you rush enthusiastically into casting God as the 'Reject me and I'll dump you' type, maybe have a little think about true love, and how covenantal love works. That's where trust and belief start.

My dear Aussie brother: I am going to miss you mate, but Lover of the written letters has forced me to renounce citizenship in our wonderful land. I will be keeping my heavenly citizenship (barely by the skin of my teeth). I tried the heavenly, but Abba declares "not possible."

iu
 
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My dear Aussie brother: I am going to miss you mate, but Lover of the written letters has forced me to renounce citizenship in our wonderful land. I will be keeping my heavenly citizenship (barely by the skin of my teeth). I tried the heavenly, but Abba declares "not possible."

Does this mean your leaving CF or a country? Not sure. Either way nice talking to you.
 
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Good protestants always want to be as literal as possible with scripture, especially the rhetorical and figurative parts.

If you begin with the idea of a god who abandons creation, then you're going to rope together some writings apparently in support.

But what does Jesus mean when he says 'Lest a grain of wheat fall to earth and die, it produces no fruit (Jn 12:24), and Paul saying 'Die to self live to Christ'? Peter explains: 'He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.' (1 Pet 2:24).

So death and destruction of the sinful self. Why? In order to bring forth the new man in Christ.

It's not rocket surgery mate.

So again, in Olethros as its used we have a reference to destruction of the sinful parts of man. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

It's the same story, man rejects God and follows idols, consequences ensue (tribulation/ wrath of God), and man cries out for help. God loves man, so He doesn't abandon him, but fixes him in what can be a very arduous and painful process of sanctification/ purification.

And for those who still don't want it - let them be vile still, how long do you think they can hold out? God's irresistible grace will slowly but surely drag them in. The Hound of Heaven never misses, He's got the words of life, the water of life, life abundant, life aeonian. So who wants to hang out in the pigsty forever?

Trouble is dear friend that no one teaches that God has abandoned creation. These are your words and not mine or I would suggest what anyone else believes here that I know. It is because of God's great love that he made a way of escape for all mankind from the foundations of the world before sin existed, God seeing with his all seeing eye the fall of mankind having a plan of love to restore us to Gods image. Sadly not all will accept the gift our heavenly father longs to give us with outstretched hands from the blood of his cross when all we need to do is hold out out hands of faith to receive Gods' free gift of love. Sadly to God many are called but few are chosen because they refuse to hold out the hand of faith and receive God's gift of love. It is because God is a God of love and mercy that he has made his plan of salvation for all mankind from the foundations of the world. It is because God is also a God of justice and judgement that God so loved this world that he sent his only son JESUS who loved us and choose to pay the penalty for our sins and died the death that we all deserve to die that we can be reconcilled to God. This is also where we God's love in it's fullest sense to those who receive God's gift of Grace through faith. All I see is God's love dear friend and now he has made me free to love and now I love him and follow him not because of anything I have done but because of his love and stripes I am healed. How about you?
 
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It depends. God through his timeless nature knows who are saved even before the foundation of Earth was laid. (Eph 1:4). However, for us humans, this will be secret until the Judgement day. There is nothing wrong about us being confident in Lord that we will be Saved but I would not take it for granted.

Dear James it is not necessary to assume anything regarding our loving Father. We each and every one of us can know the splendour of our Lord Jesus Christ today cascading into much greater effulgence tomorrow & in coming eon's.

"God IS the Saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who trust in Him. Command this & teach this."
 
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