Dispensationalist Only Matthew's use of prophecy

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Good morning everyone! Hope you had a good Easter.

In light of our shared literal hermeneutic, how are we to understand Matthew's use of prophecy in the first few chapters of his Gospel. Here are some examples:

1) Matthew 1:22-23, quoting Isaiah 7:14.

2) Matthew 2:15, quoting Hosea 11:1

3) Matthew 2:17, quoting Jeremiah 31:15

Although the words can be taken literally as Matthew uses them, they are completely taken out of their context in the OT. A little help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, and God bless you;
Michael
 

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
64
usa
✟213,965.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi Emanuel is God with us so is Jesus God with us? That is one of His titles in my view.
Good morning everyone! Hope you had a good Easter.

In light of our shared literal hermeneutic, how are we to understand Matthew's use of prophecy in the first few chapters of his Gospel. Here are some examples:

1) Matthew 1:22-23, quoting Isaiah 7:14.

2) Matthew 2:15, quoting Hosea 11:1

3) Matthew 2:17, quoting Jeremiah 31:15

Although the words can be taken literally as Matthew uses them, they are completely taken out of their context in the OT. A little help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, and God bless you;
Michael
 
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
64
usa
✟213,965.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
all scripture is inspired by God so what ever contradiction is going to be on our side of thinking rather than God making a mistake. So is Jesus God? Yes than the prophecy is God is with us and this is the connection rather than he has to named Emanuel. So when Jesus comes out of exile in Egypt the quote shows that passage had duel meanings as the nation was called out of Egypt and now the Holy Spirit is linking this further to Jesus. The same with Rachael and when the children were killed the Holy Spirit made the connection. Not all verses are as crystal clear such as Zech noting the king coming on the foal of a donkey.

When you study and connect ideas you see many types or echos of what will come to pass such as David and Goliath. Goliath is a type of anti christ with six fingers, toes and a spearhead of 600 shekels in weight being taken out by David which in Dan the image of Nebuchadnezzar also is a similar metaphor. The Bible does not mention this but we can see the connections. Like Abraham offering Isaac his only son and then the angel stops him and Abraham names that place God will provide himself a sacrifice.
Bible teaches these things are spiritually discerned so read and pray about them and give God glory and have faith in the stuff that is more clear to you and over time many of these tangles come undone.
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi Brian, thanks for replying. I should have been more clear in my OP and thread title. My question was really about our use of the literal hermeneutic in interpreting OT prophecy, seeing as how Matthew does not appear to read Isaiah, Micah, and Jeremiah that way judging by how he applies it to Christ.

all scripture is inspired by God so what ever contradiction is going to be on our side of thinking rather than God making a mistake.

Agree completely.

So is Jesus God? Yes than the prophecy is God is with us and this is the connection rather than he has to named Emanuel.

No question it fits in the NT... my problem was with how Isaiah 7 was speaking about something else entirely, a child that was born back in the 6th century BC. Matthew was obviously not using a literal hermeneutic when he quoted Isaiah by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which leads me to wonder whether I should be reading prophecy literally, or at least not literally only. Do you see my dilemma more clearly now.

So when Jesus comes out of exile in Egypt the quote shows that passage had duel meanings as the nation was called out of Egypt and now the Holy Spirit is linking this further to Jesus. The same with Rachael and when the children were killed the Holy Spirit made the connection.

I can see how Matthew was connecting Jesus typologically with national Israel... still, he was not interpreting the OT prophets literally in these cases.

Not all verses are as crystal clear such as Zech noting the king coming on the foal of a donkey.

Yes. I find it very interesting that many other theological traditions would argue that Zechariah is apocalyptic literature and should not be read literally, yet the NT authors obviously quoted him literally.

When you study and connect ideas you see many types or echos of what will come to pass such as David and Goliath. Goliath is a type of anti christ with six fingers, toes and a spearhead of 600 shekels in weight being taken out by David which in Dan the image of Nebuchadnezzar also is a similar metaphor.

Hadn't made those connections before, thanks.

The Bible does not mention this but we can see the connections. Like Abraham offering Isaac his only son and then the angel stops him and Abraham names that place God will provide himself a sacrifice.

Yes, I was very familiar with that type/antitype connection between Genesis 22 and Jesus' crucifixion.

Bible teaches these things are spiritually discerned so read and pray about them and give God glory and have faith in the stuff that is more clear to you and over time many of these tangles come undone.

It appears to me that when it comes to interpreting the OT, you take a both/and approach when it comes to literal and metaphorical interpretations... am I correct? If so, is this the common hermeneutic amongst Dispensationalists?

Thanks again for the reply, and God bless you;
Michael
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
64
usa
✟213,965.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi again when you go through the rest of Mathew he seems to be a ltieralist to me and all the verses seem to connect so how God's hand was guiding the early events in Jesus life. The 1st prophecy of the Bible is the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. This is the great plot line in all of scripture and we see a remedy for sin and death at the cross but we do not see the serpents head crushed until the 2nd coming and ultimately at the end of the millennium when he is released to launch on last deception. The Book of Mathew follows the Genealogy of this promise from Abraham which ads more detail of who the seed of the woman is. In his seed all the nations will be blessed. This is followed to David who again is added to the promise that one of his descendants will be on the throne forever. These are again the plot line of Jesus being developed right at the beginning. The promise of a sign is certainly related to the virgin birth and the seed of the woman and critics will try to muddle the rest of the chapter but the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit so this revelation is important. Like Jude quoting Enoch Saying he saw the LORD coming with thousands of thousands.
This ties in with Zech where the LORD is king over all the earth when HE comes on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken captive. He comes with his saints and melts his enemies and His feet touch the mount of Olives and it creates a new valley with specific boundaries and a new river that flows two directions one of them is east. The nations which are left from that day on must come to Jerusalem and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain and Egypt is singled out that if they do not keep it they will have a drought. So life does continue after the LORD is king and no doubt Egypt will be in drought in the millennium and someone will show them that they failed to come to the feast.
The river that flows going east would wind up in the dead sea where Ezekiel 47 predicts that a new river will flow in and heal the dead sea so that it is a prolific fishing place. This comes when the nations of Israel is to receive by tribes their allotment in the promised land. Jer 3 speaks of a day when Israel inherits the land for good and it is when the throne of the LORD is established.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers. You see the Bible paints such a clear before and after picture of Israel before the 2nd coming and afterwards that seeing the larger theme and knowing where it ends makes all the sign posts on the way more clear. Here is what Zacharias in Luke one said Jesus would accomplish.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. When you lay out passages like zech 14 you see Israel delivered from their enemies and now they are holy and serving the LORD without fear all the days of their lives.
In Isaiah 61 we see Jesus taking the scroll are reading up to a point that end with declaring the acceptable year of the LORD. The 2nd half of that chapter shows the things accomplished in the day of vengeance of our God and this is very Zion focused what happens. Read this mind blower.
Finally Jer 31 is where most anit future views depart a literal view and in the next verses right after promising the new covenant we see God declare that Israel will not cease to be a nation in God's eyes and that God will not cast them off for all they have done. Now certainly God knew Israel would reject Jesus and Israel and the temple would be destroyed and the Jews scattered into all the nations for nearly 2000 years. Jer 31 ends with a promise that the city (Jerusalem) shall be rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the valleys and then it will be Holy and it will not be thrown down ever again. Go to Zech 14 the LORD comes when Jerusalem is overrun and Jesus will fill the valley with the dead and it will need be rebuilt. All of these and many many more all tell the same story and events in the same way. When it is over I am sure hundreds of prophetic verses will be clear that we overlooked. Anyways I wrote this long answer 1st because I felt you would read it and it is mostly scripture and my goal was to emphasize the major themes and then the minor things that seem odd I just put in a file and over time many of those in the file become clearer. If the word is true the major themes amphasized will be clear and solid. I have a brother in law who has been talked into pretersim based on a single argument that Rev says these things must happen quickly. He has thrown out all the clear markers and sees things getting better even now. Things sure seem to be moving quickly now.. God bless
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi again when you go through the rest of Mathew he seems to be a ltieralist to me and all the verses seem to connect so how God's hand was guiding the early events in Jesus life. The 1st prophecy of the Bible is the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. This is the great plot line in all of scripture and we see a remedy for sin and death at the cross but we do not see the serpents head crushed until the 2nd coming and ultimately at the end of the millennium when he is released to launch on last deception.

I see this the same way.

The Book of Mathew follows the Genealogy of this promise from Abraham which ads more detail of who the seed of the woman is. In his seed all the nations will be blessed. This is followed to David who again is added to the promise that one of his descendants will be on the throne forever. These are again the plot line of Jesus being developed right at the beginning.

Yes, I follow and agree.

The promise of a sign is certainly related to the virgin birth and the seed of the woman and critics will try to muddle the rest of the chapter but the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit so this revelation is important.

I am not trying to be critical... I am just uncertain right now of how to reconcile a literal hermeneutic with the way prophecy is sometimes interpreted by the NT authors (or, more importantly, the Holy Spirit!).

Like Jude quoting Enoch Saying he saw the LORD coming with thousands of thousands.
This ties in with Zech where the LORD is king over all the earth when HE comes on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken captive. He comes with his saints and melts his enemies and His feet touch the mount of Olives and it creates a new valley with specific boundaries and a new river that flows two directions one of them is east. The nations which are left from that day on must come to Jerusalem and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain and Egypt is singled out that if they do not keep it they will have a drought. So life does continue after the LORD is king and no doubt Egypt will be in drought in the millennium and someone will show them that they failed to come to the feast.

I am not questioning my pre-millennial viewpoint at all... I am beginning to wonder if perhaps we can also look at the OT Scriptures in a more metaphorical way. Obviously, we can sometimes, as this is how the NT writers used them at times... but is there always both a literal and a metaphorical meaning embedded in the prophets? Or just sometimes?


The river that flows going east would wind up in the dead sea where Ezekiel 47 predicts that a new river will flow in and heal the dead sea so that it is a prolific fishing place. This comes when the nations of Israel is to receive by tribes their allotment in the promised land. Jer 3 speaks of a day when Israel inherits the land for good and it is when the throne of the LORD is established.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Obviously a reference to the Millennium. But I am wondering if there is also some metaphorical meaning to gleaned here...

You see the Bible paints such a clear before and after picture of Israel before the 2nd coming and afterwards that seeing the larger theme and knowing where it ends makes all the sign posts on the way more clear.

Here is what Zacharias in Luke one said Jesus would accomplish.
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. When you lay out passages like zech 14 you see Israel delivered from their enemies and now they are holy and serving the LORD without fear all the days of their lives.
In Isaiah 61 we see Jesus taking the scroll are reading up to a point that end with declaring the acceptable year of the LORD. The 2nd half of that chapter shows the things accomplished in the day of vengeance of our God and this is very Zion focused what happens. Read this mind blower.
Finally Jer 31 is where most anit future views depart a literal view and in the next verses right after promising the new covenant we see God declare that Israel will not cease to be a nation in God's eyes and that God will not cast them off for all they have done. Now certainly God knew Israel would reject Jesus and Israel and the temple would be destroyed and the Jews scattered into all the nations for nearly 2000 years. Jer 31 ends with a promise that the city (Jerusalem) shall be rebuilt at a time when dead bodies fill the valleys and then it will be Holy and it will not be thrown down ever again. Go to Zech 14 the LORD comes when Jerusalem is overrun and Jesus will fill the valley with the dead and it will need be rebuilt. All of these and many many more all tell the same story and events in the same way. When it is over I am sure hundreds of prophetic verses will be clear that we overlooked.

Again, I am in no way doubting the pre-Millennial view, just wrestling with the hermeneutics to be applied to the OT prophets. Can we use a both/and hermeneutics? Obviously we use a literal hermeneutic normally, but given how the Holy Spirit inspired the NT authors to apply some passages, do we also need to look for a metaphorical meaning to all the passages? Could this be a way of partially reconciling the Amillennial view with the Premillennial views by spiritualizing (along with taking the literal view) OT prophecy? Obviously, both views cannot be completely right, they are diametrically opposed on some things... but could we be brought closer together on many things? Thinking big thoughts, but I am unsure...

Anyways I wrote this long answer 1st because I felt you would read it and it is mostly scripture and my goal was to emphasize the major themes and then the minor things that seem odd I just put in a file and over time many of those in the file become clearer. If the word is true the major themes emphasized will be clear and solid.

I see what you are saying... the main framework is clear and compelling even if there are a few loose ends to unravel.

I have a brother in law who has been talked into pretersim based on a single argument that Rev says these things must happen quickly. He has thrown out all the clear markers and sees things getting better even now. Things sure seem to be moving quickly now.. God bless

Sorry to hear that... not to worry, I am not going down that road (Lord willing). God bless you, Brian!
Michael
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I have been continuing to study the passages, and am starting to like the type/antitype interpretation. In this view, the child born at the time of Isaiah would be a type of Jesus, and thus Jesus would be the antitype, fulfilling the full meaning of Isaiah 7:14. Same with the other two passages, in which it seems that Matthew is trying to connect Jesus' life with the history of Israel. Not sure if this is acceptable within a dispensational hermeneutic... am I going off the rails a bit here?

As to my previous post, I am becoming less enamored with the idea of a both/and hermeneutic. It would seem to cause all the problems of the spiritual interpretation (which spiritual interpretation is correct, etc.), while making certain literal interpretations extraneous (the judgment on Babylon yet to come, the Millennium, etc.).

Thanks in advance for any input/criticism;
Michael
 
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The river that flows going east would wind up in the dead sea where Ezekiel 47 predicts that a new river will flow in and heal the dead sea so that it is a prolific fishing place. This comes when the nations of Israel is to receive by tribes their allotment in the promised land. Jer 3 speaks of a day when Israel inherits the land for good and it is when the throne of the LORD is established.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem [the Body of Believers] shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.


Obviously a reference to the Millennium. But I am wondering if there is also some metaphorical meaning to gleaned here...


Rather, a reference to the Eternal "Kingdom of God" after
the end of the 2nd Woe (sixth Trumpet) at the time of the
eternal 3rd Woe and Seventh Trumpet when the Lord Returns.


Rev 11:14
The second woe is past; and, behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.


Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.



.
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
62
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟24,406.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good morning everyone! Hope you had a good Easter.

In light of our shared literal hermeneutic, how are we to understand Matthew's use of prophecy in the first few chapters of his Gospel. Here are some examples:

1) Matthew 1:22-23, quoting Isaiah 7:14.

2) Matthew 2:15, quoting Hosea 11:1

3) Matthew 2:17, quoting Jeremiah 31:15

Although the words can be taken literally as Matthew uses them, they are completely taken out of their context in the OT. A little help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, and God bless you;
Michael

Dear food4thought,
Context is not that important, in fact, context is often mistakenly used to force a false meaning to what is being said. This verse explains why:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.


Truth is taught in bits and pieces - a little here and a little there and those pieces are inserted into scripture in ways that have nothing to do with context. Because of this, the pieces must be assembled much like a jigsaw puzzle before one can come away with a correct understanding.

God's truth is written this way so that mankind CANNOT understand the truth of God. Then to make it even more difficult to understand, the Word of God is written in "another tongue" (spiritual language). Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language. All this is done so that God's truth remains hidden from everyone except those whom Christ chooses to reveal it.

Christ said His words were for those with "ears that can hear" or "eyes that can see". These are "spiritual" eyes and ears that Christ gives to His chosen Elect. Once a person receives these "eyes and ears", their Christian paradigm changes and scripture opens up. When this happens, context is not that important.

Even Paul taught in this manner.

1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here is an example:

The context of the verse below is when Judas came and kissed Christ in order for Christ to be taken. When Peter saw what was happening, Peter drew his sword and struck one of the servants of the high priest.

Then Christ said this to Peter:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Did Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, you will likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be FALSE. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Here the symbol of the Sword represents the Word of God and the Word of God is Christ. Christ is teaching on salvation. When Christ comes to us, He destroys our Old Man (carnal nature) and then gives life to a New Man in Christ.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of our carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents our new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of salvation is accomplished by the Word of God (Christ, Sword).

To correctly understand scripture, it must be understood spiritually. For this type of understanding to occur, we must first understand that the words used in scripture do not carry the same meaning as taught by man’s wisdom (1Cor 2:13). Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We must compare spiritual with spiritual. We are to also keep in mind that “the sum of God’s Word is truth”. Trying to literally understand a single verse of scripture within its own context will only produce confusion. Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominational churches in the world? This is one of the reasons why.

So when does a believer receive these spiritual "eyes" so that they can understand truth? We don't have to wonder because Christ gives us the answer. The only problem is that His answer is in spiritual language and only those who have spiritual eyes can understand the answer. It is a kind of "catch 22".

Here is the answer to when:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Baptism of the Holy Spirit, second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

Context is not that important.

Joe
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AdamjEdgar

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2021
449
139
52
Melbourne
✟17,432.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
@ Joe, you said...
"Did Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, you will likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be FALSE. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying."

What a load of absolute tripe! Do you honestlly base your salvation on that kind of rationalisation?

I have heard the exact same rationalisation used by large numbers of smokers are justification for NOT GIVING UP SMOKING!

To address your first point...

"Truth is taught in bits and pieces - a little here and a little there and those pieces are inserted into scripture in ways that have nothing to do with context. Because of this, the pieces must be assembled much like a jigsaw puzzle before one can come away with a correct understanding."

This is exactly how cult leaders manage to brainwash their followers! You are claiming that only a specific individual claiming to be mysteriously lead by the spirit are capable of interpreting scripture. That is a fallacy and is exactly how it is that a spirit medium (the wife of a former bishop who lost his way and entiered into spirit medium practices) inspired the very first translation of the Watchtower New World Translation (a man whom once they realised his connections, they disowned any association with years later. However, they did not alter his translation or the very obvious errors it contains!)

It is foolishness for anyone to take any notice of this kind of advice. It is utter nonsense! The themes and contexts of the bible absolutely must be carefully considered with any doctrine. Taking passages outside of their context in order to develop an alternative meaning leads to corruption and ultimately a lost soul.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
62
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟24,406.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@ Joe, you said...
"Did Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, you will likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be FALSE. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying."

What a load of absolute tripe! Do you honestlly base your salvation on that kind of rationalisation?

I have heard the exact same rationalisation used by large numbers of smokers are justification for NOT GIVING UP SMOKING!

To address your first point...

"Truth is taught in bits and pieces - a little here and a little there and those pieces are inserted into scripture in ways that have nothing to do with context. Because of this, the pieces must be assembled much like a jigsaw puzzle before one can come away with a correct understanding."

This is exactly how cult leaders manage to brainwash their followers! You are claiming that only a specific individual claiming to be mysteriously lead by the spirit are capable of interpreting scripture. That is a fallacy and is exactly how it is that a spirit medium (the wife of a former bishop who lost his way and entiered into spirit medium practices) inspired the very first translation of the Watchtower New World Translation (a man whom once they realised his connections, they disowned any association with years later. However, they did not alter his translation or the very obvious errors it contains!)

It is foolishness for anyone to take any notice of this kind of advice. It is utter nonsense! The themes and contexts of the bible absolutely must be carefully considered with any doctrine. Taking passages outside of their context in order to develop an alternative meaning leads to corruption and ultimately a lost soul.

Dear AdamjEdgar,
What I have presented is God's Truth and God's Truth is hidden in scripture. Only those who Christ gives "ears to hear" are able to understand it.

Do you believe what Paul said concerning the way he teaches?

1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How about what Proverbs says?

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Mankind is so carnally minded, we cannot understand the truth of God in our created condition.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Christ wanted to conceal the truth He taught and that was why He taught in parables:

Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Christ spoke only in parables to fulfill this scripture:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Christ taught in this manner so that mankind cannot understand His meaning. And because Christ's words were recorded in the four Gospels exactly the way He spoke, His teaching is still hidden from this world even today. The only ones who can understand His words are those whom Christ chose from the foundation of the world and they can only understand Him AFTER receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit when He heals their spiritual blindness.

When an unbeliever is "called out" from the world, they receive ONLY the Early Rain of the Spirit and they are left spiritually blind and cannot understand God's Word. That is the reason there are nearly 2000 different denominations of churches in the world, all with their own particular carnal understanding of scripture. It truly is the place where the blind lead the blind.

But their lack of understanding is of no fault of their own:

Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Christ is only saving His Firstfruits of His harvest in this age and they are the only ones who will understand. No one else will understand or be saved at this time. It is Christ's work to save us and He is the one who chooses when a person is saved. We cannot save ourselves. If you believe mankind has that power, then you do not believe God's Word.

Also, I do not associate with any church or group nor do I try to recruit people to follow me. My ministry is to help teach God's Elect who are receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit and are just now hearing Christ's call to "come out of her my people".

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

They are the only ones who have had their hearts prepared to receive His truth and the only ones who I can help.

My Latter Rain testimony is presented in my profile.

Joe
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,812
596
Victoria
✟592,791.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good morning everyone! Hope you had a good Easter.

In light of our shared literal hermeneutic, how are we to understand Matthew's use of prophecy in the first few chapters of his Gospel. Here are some examples:

1) Matthew 1:22-23, quoting Isaiah 7:14.

2) Matthew 2:15, quoting Hosea 11:1

3) Matthew 2:17, quoting Jeremiah 31:15

Although the words can be taken literally as Matthew uses them, they are completely taken out of their context in the OT. A little help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, and God bless you;
Michael

Hi Michael,

We know that the Old Testament prophets were only given a certain amount of revelation, thus what they wrote referred to their time. However the Holy Spirit has given us as believers in the Body of Christ, the further revelation of how these scriptures also refer to Jesus.

Thus there is a `near` and `far` fulfillment. Both are correct.

regard, Marilyn.
 
Upvote 0

AdamjEdgar

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2021
449
139
52
Melbourne
✟17,432.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Dear AdamjEdgar,
What I have presented is God's Truth and God's Truth is hidden in scripture. Only those who Christ gives "ears to hear" are able to understand it.

Joe

Then perhaps it is just as well that early churches took a very different view to that of you...
Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true."

and

Deuteronomy 29:29
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law."

Honestly, you are heading down a very dangerous pathway. No one, and i reiterate, no one, in any scholarly work references by taking out of context. Only the media and journalists do this in order to twist the truth and sensationalise for their story telling!
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
62
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟24,406.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then perhaps it is just as well that early churches took a very different view to that of you...
Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true."

and

Deuteronomy 29:29
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, so that we may follow all the words of this law."

Honestly, you are heading down a very dangerous pathway. No one, and i reiterate, no one, in any scholarly work references by taking out of context. Only the media and journalists do this in order to twist the truth and sensationalise for their story telling!

Dear AdamjEdgar,
God is not a "respecter of persons". He blesses and uses the weak and lowly things of this world to confound the supposedly wise of this world. People who are viewed by this world to be wise & scholarly (even within the churches), rarely have any truth in their knowledge of God. Look at the apostles - the Pharisees didn't think much of their education or ability to do scholarly work either. But God has "made foolish the wisdom of this world":

1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Those who have not received the Latter Rain are spiritually blind and they understand God's Word from a viewpoint coming from this world. They see the Word of God with carnal eyes and they see it as "outward" when instead it should be understood as "inward".

It has been my experience that those who profess to be scholarly are the ones who work to the hardest to make scripture appear to teach something that it doesn't. Without the Latter Rain, they are no more than blind leaders of the blind.

I have used these two verses below many times in my posts and have seen "scholarly" attempts to make them say something other than what they clearly teach:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

To believe that Christ is not going to save all mankind is a "tradition of man" and a lie from Satan. It is most certainly a view that comes from this world and not from the Holy Spirit. Without the Latter Rain, a believer remains a part of this world and understands scripture from that point of view.

But of course, their lack of faith and understanding is the "will" of God for the time being. He controls who can understand His Word and who will be saved in this age. But by the end of the final age, all mankind will "come unto the knowledge of the truth". Only then will they be able to see just how blind they had been.

Joe
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0