LDS How a Cult Works

Rescued One · Apr 22, 2020

Peter1000 said:
You never show Ephesians 2:10 because it has to do with doing good works.

You are wanting to do the good works that God has before ordained for you to walk in. You will want to do these good works because God loves you and you love God.

If a person who thinks they are saved but does not do these good works that God has ordained for you to do, then we know they have not really been saved. Is that right?

What makes you think that you know the specific works that God has ordained for another person to do? And since you aren't saved according to your own religion, you can't possibly recognize another person's standing with God.

dzheremi · Apr 22, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
@dzheremi

The Mormon Jesus has only flesh and bone, but not flesh and blood.

Resurrected beings per Mormonism, no longer have blood; blood is for mortals.

They quote Luke 24:
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Yet they insist that "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth," doesn't mean that the Father hath not flesh and bone.

Ahhh, thank you. I think I remember you mentioning that before, but I didn't put it together with the resurrection. So the resurrected body doesn't have blood because it's immortal. Huh. Interesting. :scratch:

He is the way · Apr 23, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
@dzheremi

The Mormon Jesus has only flesh and bone, but not flesh and blood.

Resurrected beings per Mormonism, no longer have blood; blood is for mortals.

They quote Luke 24:
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Yet they insist that "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth," doesn't mean that the Father hath not flesh and bone.

You said: "Yet they insist that "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth," doesn't mean that the Father hath not flesh and bone."

The Holy Ghost is a spirit.

Peter1000 · Apr 23, 2020

dzheremi said:
Is this the case, though? From other threads in which I believe you also participated, I remember being told of the Mormon cosmology and such by you guys something to the effect of everyone existing as an eternal intelligence, including also the Mormon Christ. Am I misremembering things? That would be a great cause for hope, if your Christ is indeed uncreated, but then I would want to know how that is the case given this belief in eternal intelligences.

Jesus Christ is uncreated like his Father is. They are eternal. There has never been a time when Jesus was not, as the Arians declared. Therefore their declaration is anathema to us, and if Arius was a member of our church today, we would excommunicate him from our church also.

In our belief, intelligence is a real phenomena that cannot be made, nor can it be destroyed, we call that an uncreated phenamena. God is the most intelligent of all. He is the highest intelligence.

There are many lesser intelligences, one of which is you, and one of which is myself.

Did He not have such a body before the resurrection as well, or does Mormonism teach otherwise?

Jesus's mortal body was made up of flesh and bone and blood and spirit.
When he was resurrected his body changed and was made up of only flesh and bone and spirit, and another component of the resurrection is the exaltation of the body. The exaltation of the body changes the body from a corruptible element to an incorruptible element where the spirit and the body are united forever, never to be separated again.

The exaltation also invests the knew body with many wonderful qualities, such as mobility, (Jesus ascended to heaven right before their eyes), and changeability (Jesus walked through solid objects).

So the body that Jesus went into the tomb with, was certainly not the body he walked out of the tomb with. An analysis would be: Our mortal body compared to an exalted resurrected body would be like comparing an amoeba to a total mortal body. IOW no comparison.

We also believe we are saved by God.

One God in three Persons -- homoousios (of one and the same essence/substance).

We are not so far away since we too believe in One God in three Persons, of the same essence, but have 3 separate and distinct hypostases.

I have always been enthralled with the study of the relationship of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I have learned some interesting points about them from you and wish to learn more. Thank you.

Rescued One · Apr 23, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: "Yet they insist that "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth," doesn't mean that the Father hath not flesh and bone."

The Holy Ghost is a spirit.

The Mormon holy ghost is a lesser god with a spirit body and can be in only one place at a time.

He is the way · Apr 23, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
The Mormon holy ghost is a lesser god with a spirit body and can be in only one place at a time.

The Holy Ghost is NOT a lesser God.

Rescued One · Apr 23, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Jesus Christ is uncreated like his Father is. They are eternal. There has never been a time when Jesus was not, as the Arians declared. Therefore their declaration is anathema to us, and if Arius was a member of our church today, we would excommunicate him from our church also.

Your Jesus wasn't fully god before his resurrection.

Peter1000 said:
In our belief, intelligence is a real phenomena that cannot be made, nor can it be destroyed, we call that an uncreated phenamena. God is the most intelligent of all. He is the highest intelligence.

There are many lesser intelligences, one of which is you, and one of which is myself.

You say, "He is the highest intelligence." Higher than all what?

"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. [D&C 130:18-19]"

Peter1000 said:
We also believe we are saved by God.

Saved to immortality apart from God or saved to eternal life with God or something else? In Mormonism, eternal life has to be earned.

Peter1000 said:
We are not so far away since we too believe in One God in three Persons, of the same essence, but have 3 separate and distinct hypostases.

I have always been enthralled with the study of the relationship of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I have learned some interesting points about them from you and wish to learn more. Thank you.

Do you think it will help you defend Mormonism?

Joseph Smith said:

“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476)

Rescued One · Apr 23, 2020

He is the way said:
The Holy Ghost is NOT a lesser God.

Lesser is opposite of greater.

God the Father is greater than all (see Ephesians 4:6; John 10:29).
As the Supreme Being, God the Father should be the object of our love and worship (see D&C 18:40; 20:29; Joshua 22:5; Mark 12:30; D&C 4:2; Luke 4:8).... The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead (see John 14:26, 28, 31; 2 Nephi 31:7, 12; 3 Nephi 28:11).

Supporting Statements

D. God is the Supreme Being in the universe.
E. The Father presides over the Godhead.
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual

President Joseph Fielding Smith said:
Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!”
Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18

He is the way · Apr 23, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Lesser is opposite of greater.

God the Father is greater than all (see Ephesians 4:6; John 10:29).
As the Supreme Being, God the Father should be the object of our love and worship (see D&C 18:40; 20:29; Joshua 22:5; Mark 12:30; D&C 4:2; Luke 4:8).... The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead (see John 14:26, 28, 31; 2 Nephi 31:7, 12; 3 Nephi 28:11).

Supporting Statements

D. God is the Supreme Being in the universe.
E. The Father presides over the Godhead.
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual

President Joseph Fielding Smith said:
Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit, which is subject unto him, but his Father is greater than he! He has said it. Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!”
Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18

We do not preach that the Holy Ghost is a "lesser God" nor do we preach that Jesus Christ is a "lesser God" even though He said:

(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Rescued One · Apr 25, 2020

“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.”12
Chapter 17: The Great Plan of Salvation

Peter1000 · Apr 25, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Your Jesus wasn't fully god before his resurrection.

Neither was yours.

In order for Jesus to be fully God, he had to do the things that his God and Father did. Mortal life was just as important to Jesus as it is to you. He had to learn things, like obedience.
Hebrews 5:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

A fully functioning God does not have to learn obedience. Jesus had to and then he became perfect, not before.

Luke 13:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Now, I know that you use the word finished instead of perfected, but the word perfected is better because it is confirmed by Hebrews 5:9. After Jesus suffered and died he learned obedience, and then when he was resurrected the 3rd day he was perfected.

IOW he became a fully functional God. But technically speaking, not until.

Always remember that Jesus was 1/2 God and 1/2 man his whole mortal life. Not until he was resurrected was he fully 100% God. That makes sense, right?

You say, "He is the highest intelligence." Higher than all what?

Higher than yours.

Rescued One · Apr 25, 2020

He is the way said:
We do not preach that the Holy Ghost is a "lesser God" nor do we preach that Jesus Christ is a "lesser God"...

If the Father is greater, the Son is lesser.

“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.”12
Chapter 17: The Great Plan of Salvation

Oh, what a tangled web Mormons weave!

He is the way · Apr 25, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
If the Father is greater, the Son is lesser.

“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.”12
Chapter 17: The Great Plan of Salvation

Oh, what a tangled web Mormons weave!

So do you preach that the Son is lesser than the Father because He said for my Father is greater than I:?

Rescued One · Apr 25, 2020

Peter1000 said:
In order for Jesus to be fully God, he had to do the things that his God and Father did. Mortal life was just as important to Jesus as it is to you. He had to learn things, like obedience.
Hebrews 5:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

A fully functioning God does not have to learn obedience. Jesus had to and then he became perfect, not before.

God is all powerful. How do you come up with "a fully functioning God?" That sounds like blasphemy; are you talking about a man-made robot?

Jesus came to earth to die for the sins of His sheep. When He died His purpose was accomplished. It was complete.

Hebrews 10:10 and 10:14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

He didn't make us gods or Gods or, as you claim, "fully God!"

Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him,
which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Peter1000 said:
Luke 13:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Now, I know that you use the word finished instead of perfected, but the word perfected is better because it is confirmed by Hebrews 5:9. After Jesus suffered and died he learned obedience, and then when he was resurrected the 3rd day he was perfected.

IOW he became a fully functional God. But technically speaking, not until.

Always remember that Jesus was 1/2 God and 1/2 man his whole mortal life. Not until he was resurrected was he fully 100% God. That makes sense, right?

No, Jesus is and was always fully God.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Rescued One · Apr 25, 2020

He is the way said:
So do you preach that the Son is lesser than the Father because He said for my Father is greater than I:?

He was not less than God, He lowered his position so he could die for our sins. His sinlessness was equal with His Father.

Jesus was fully God and fully man and I believe a minister who is more educated than I can explain it.

dzheremi · Apr 25, 2020

Christ our Lord and God voluntarily emptied Himself and came to us as a servant. He willingly took on human nature, being incarnate in a real human body with a rational soul and everything, and in that way lowered Himself. This is testified to in the holy scriptures (e.g., Philippians 2:7-9), and in the prayers of the Church from antiquity, as in the beautiful prayer of the Coptic Orthodox Nativity (Christmas), as prayed here by Fr. Antonious Tanious:

(As befits the celebration, after going through the fall and the OT times, the prayer turns to the Incarnation)

...
O Thou, the Being throughout all time, have come to us on Earth
You have come into the womb of the virgin
You the Infinite, You the Infinite, being God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be held onto
But released it and emptied Yourself
And took the form of a servant
and blessed my nature in Yourself
And fulfilled Your law on my behalf
...

+++

Mormonism does not behave as though this has actually happened. It is a tragedy and a scandal, and an insult to and denial of God.

He is the way · Apr 25, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
He was not less than God, He lowered his position so he could die for our sins. His sinlessness was equal with His Father.

Jesus was fully God and fully man and I believe a minister who is more educated than I can explain it.

No He was not less than God, He is a God, but His Father is His God and His Father is Greater. That does not make Christ a lesser God.

Rescued One · Apr 25, 2020

He is the way said:
No He was not less than God, He is a God, but His Father is His God and His Father is Greater. That does not make Christ a lesser God.

IOW, you believe He had to be perfected to be fully God, correct?

Why does your manual Doctrines of the Gospel say, "As the Supreme Being, God the Father should be the object of our love and worship?"

The October 1978 Ensign contains the following:

First of all, we know that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate individuals, each having a distinct role. God the Father is the Supreme Being—no one in the Godhead is on a peer level with our Father in Heaven. Moses recorded an excellent scriptural statement on this subject:

God explained to Moses that “mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me.” (Moses 1:6; italics added.)

President Joseph F. Smith and his counselors explained that the phrase “there is no God beside me” meant “beside me, above me, or equal to me, or to be an object of worship.” They added that “the sole object of worship, God the Eternal Father, stands supreme and alone, and it is in the name of the Only Begotten that we thus approach him.” (See James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, vol. 4, p. 270–271.)
How can one distinguish the meaning of the word Lord in a particular case?

Mormons claim that Jehovah-Jesus said:

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
(Isaiah 43)

He is the way · Apr 25, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
IOW, you believe He had to be perfected to be fully God, correct?

He was already God, but, like us, He needed a body.

Rescued One · Apr 25, 2020

He is the way said:
He was already God, but, like us, He needed a body.

He had a body before He was resurrected. He was already fully God.

LDS How a Cult Works

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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