The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them.

Exo 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD has said will we do."

Exo 24:7-8 "And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

The elect had to make a promise of value in that covenant, therefore it was considered God's marriage-contract with Israel, and God (the "husband") promised Israel abundance of blessing in the land IF they obeyed ALL that God had commanded though Moses - but curses and exile from the land if they disobeyed - and because they are incapable of obeying, all that the law brings is curses and death.

Also, a marriage covenant is only "everlasting" until the 'wife' breaks the covenant, and as God said through Jeremiah, the "wife" had broken the covenant:

Both the ten Northern tribes and the tribe of Judah continuously broke the covenant, but in His mercy God promised a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah which would NOT BE ACCORDING to the covenant He made with them at Sinai:

Jer 31:31-32 "Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, says the LORD."

"Though I was a husband unto them" is the same as saying that though God remained faithful to His vows, the "wife" had continuously been unfaithful, and had therefore broken the covenant - and so their new moons, sabbaths and feasts became utterly distasteful to God, to the point that God even calls Israel "Sodom and Gomorrah":

Isa 1:10-14 "Hear the word of the LORD, all of you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, all of you people of Gomorrah.

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

When all of you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."

UNFIT FOR PURPOSE:

The Covenant God made with Israel "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" had proved unfit for purpose in two ways:

1. It was unfit for purpose in terms of God having an everlasting covenant relationship with His elect; and
2. It was unfit for purpose to bring life and righteousness to God's elect:

Rom 7:12-14: "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

The Law and the covenant at Sinai was unfit for purpose not because God was not faithful and capable, but because His elect were neither faithful nor capable.

THE TWO COVENANTS RATIFIED BY BLOOD - THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT

Blood has to do with sacrifice for sins and forgiveness for sins. The first covenant, given at Sinai, was ratified with blood:

Exo 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

Likewise the New Covenant was ratified by blood - but not with the blood of bulls and goats - with Christ's blood:

Mat 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

FOREVER

The New Covenant is everlasting, the old covenant is gone:

Heb 8:13 "In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away."

COMMANDMENTS IN THE LAW WHICH CONTAINED THE WORDS "EVERLASTING" AND "FOREVER"

.. are done away with and cease to exist - BECAUSE THEY WERE BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE AND THE COVENANT WHICH WAS BASED UPON THEM HAS BEEN REPLACED.

INSULTING THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT

It's an insult to God the Father and His Messiah who is Christ the Lord to seek to keep alive commandments (such as sabbath-keeping) which are part of the Old Covenant and have been done away with because the "wife" broke the covenant.

When God used the words "everlasting" and "forever" when He gave the Law and its commandments to His elect at Sinai, it's because HE was faithful and capable of keeping HIS vows - and IF (ONLY IF) the "wife" in that marriage-covenant had remained obedient and faithful, would that covenant INCLUDING ALL ITS COMMANDMENTS UPON WHICH IT WAS BASED, have remained "everlasting" and "forever".

So to the question: "Whatever happened to forever?" - those who belong to Christ know the answer - "forever" and "everlasting" in that covenant's commandments WAS BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE, and so the entire covenant needed replacing.

God would NEVER have first promised the New Covenant and Christ would NOT have come to shed His blood as a remission of sins if that covenant and those commandments were fit for purpose - but they are NOT fit for purpose.

Jesus said:

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

He said,

Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself."

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

NOT A LICENSE TO SIN

DEAD TO THE LAW

Rom 7:6 "But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST HAVE DIED TO THE LAW BECAUSE CHRIST ABOLISHED IT IN HIS FLESH WHEN HE DIED:

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the Law of commandments contained in ordinances) so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, making peace between them;"

DEAD TO SIN:

Rom 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know all of you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So the apostle John could write,

1John 2:1-3 "My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments."

WHICH COMMANDMENTS?

1. LOVE THE BRETHREN

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

2. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

Matt 19:17-19 "And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

He said to Him, Which?

Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."

IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

3. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES (IT'S PART OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR)

Matt 5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

HOW DO WE KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?

Jesus told us how:

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

AGAIN, IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Turning away from grace back to the Law and commandments of Moses will cause you to fall from grace:

John 1:17 "For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

JESUS REPRESENTS US BEFORE GOD, AND HE PERFECTLY OBEYED THE LAW OF MOSES AND ITS COMMANDMENTS ON OUR BEHALF - BECAUSE GOD'S ELECT WAS INCAPABLE OF OBEYING THEM, AND BROKE THE COVENANT.

THE LAWS OF MOSES AND THEIR COMMANDMENTS ARE FOREVER UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. CHRIST'S BLOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE FOREVER FIT FOR PURPOSE.

com7fy8 · Apr 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It's an insult to God the Father and His Messiah who is Christ the Lord to seek to keep alive commandments (such as sabbath-keeping) which are part of the Old Covenant and have been done away with because the "wife" broke the covenant.

Ones can make gestures of keeping certain commandments of the Old Covenant . . . but without keeping all. I suppose it could be like an unfaithful woman making a pass at her husband, and that is supposed to satisfy him while she continues to cheat herself out of real love. But he cares about her, not how he wants to use her. So, her seductive gestures don't mean anything to him. And then, instead of seeing how he loves her, she instead takes him in a wrong way by feeling he is rejecting her.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
HOW DO WE KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?

How God in us has us keeping them > with us, I would now say, discovering more and better than we thought His commandments to mean . . .

as possibly you mean by what you said:
Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

This does not mean how we are capable of getting our own selves to choose to do and try to do. But God's grace succeeds in us and has us doing better than what we can even think, practically, ahead of time. And then we discover how well God does with us.

And this is not lonely, but in sharing with God in us, how He is ruling us in His own peace to do all He means >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, in us our Father is sharing His own peace with us; this is how personal with God our covenant is, in us. And Jesus says,

"Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you," in John 14:27.

So, Jesus has given us His own peace, which is God's peace . . . all one peace. This is included in keeping God's meaning of His commandments.

"and you will find rest for your souls," Jesus guarantees us who obey Him > Matthew 11:28-30.

So, people say God loves us; this is included in how He loves us. But people cheat themselves out of this. And they make a lot of gestures, maybe trying to reach God. But through Jesus, God's grace has reached us to share God's own peace with us, "in our hearts" > while He personally rules every one of us, "in our hearts" in this peace.

So, we are wise not to accept or excuse anything less.

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Ones can make gestures of keeping certain commandments of the Old Covenant . . . but without keeping all. I suppose it could be like an unfaithful woman making a pass at her husband, and that is supposed to satisfy him while she continues to cheat herself out of real love. But he cares about her, not how he wants to use her. So, her seductive gestures don't mean anything to him. And then, instead of seeing how he loves her, she instead takes him in a wrong way by feeling he is rejecting her.

That is SO true. You describe it so well. Actually I should have rated your post "winner".

Believing in Jesus our redeemer and then going looking back longingly to those commandments is also like looking back to Sodom and turning ourselves spiritually into pillars of salt.

com7fy8 said:
How God in us has us keeping them > with us, I would now say, discovering more and better than we thought His commandments to mean . . .This does not mean how we are capable of getting our own selves to choose to do and try to do. But God's grace succeeds in us and has us doing better than what we can even think, practically, ahead of time. And then we discover how well God does with us.

And this is not lonely, but in sharing with God in us, how He is ruling us in His own peace to do all He means >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, in us our Father is sharing His own peace with us; this is how personal with God our covenant is, in us. And Jesus says,

"Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you," in John 14:27.

So, Jesus has given us His own peace, which is God's peace . . . all one peace. This is included in keeping God's meaning of His commandments.

"and you will find rest for your souls," Jesus guarantees us who obey Him > Matthew 11:28-30.

So, people say God loves us; this is included in how He loves us. But people cheat themselves out of this. And they make a lot of gestures, maybe trying to reach God. But through Jesus, God's grace has reached us to share God's own peace with us, "in our hearts" > while He personally rules every one of us, "in our hearts" in this peace.
So, we are wise not to accept or excuse anything less.

expos4ever · Apr 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
COMMANDMENTS IN THE LAW WHICH CONTAINED THE WORDS "EVERLASTING" AND "FOREVER"

.. are done away with and cease to exist - BECAUSE THEY WERE BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE AND THE COVENANT WHICH WAS BASED UPON THEM HAS BEEN REPLACED.

I agree with you that the Law of Moses is now "in the rear-view mirror", as it were. But, there is another way to deal with the "commandments are forever" texts. And it involves the meaning of the Hebrew word "owlam" that is often translated as "forever". Choosing to translate this word as "forever" is arguably an error, at least in some cases. Here is the definition of "owlam" from the Net Bible:

long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

So, as you can see, the word can refer to a finite, albeit long, time interval.

expos4ever · Apr 25, 2020

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

I think it is abundantly clear that the Law of Moses has indeed been "retired" or superseded. And, yes, we see one poster in particular who, with the fervent zeal of a sicarii, has been arguing otherwise. Yes, there are some texts which, when studied out of context, certainly seem to suggest the Law is still in force (example: Romans 3:31). But I believe there is a legitimate way to read such texts so that they cohere with the overall Biblical picture that the Law of Moses is now set aside.

Just one reason is this: the Law of Moses very clearly functioned to mark the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile. But Paul clearly argues that Jew and Gentile are now united in Christ. Well, if the Jew still follows the law and the Gentile does not, it is hard to argue they are really united. Accordingly, Paul tells us in many places, not least Ephesians 2, that the law is now retired, effectively dissolving the boundary between Jew and Gentile.

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

I noticed, and it's a pleasure

Those who belong to Christ should pay no heed to Lot's wife telling them to turn back to Sodom and Egypt:

Gal 4:25 "For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all."

Rev 11:8 "And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Gal 4:21 "Tell me, those desiring to be under Law, do you not hear the Law?"

Gal 3:10 "For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
I agree with you that the Law of Moses is now "in the rear-view mirror", as it were. But, there is another way to deal with the "commandments are forever" texts. And it involves the meaning of the Hebrew word "owlam" that is often translated as "forever". Choosing to translate this word as "forever" is arguably an error, at least in some cases. Here is the definition of "owlam" from the Net Bible:

long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

So, as you can see, the word can refer to a finite, albeit long, time interval.

Thank you - and what you say is also true.

It requires faith in Christ to leave go of what we cannot please God with.

It has always been the stumbling-stone of unbelieving Jews:

Rom 9:30-32 "What shall we say then? That the nations, who did not follow after righteousness have taken on righteousness, but a righteousness of faith. But Israel, who followed after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness.

Why? Because it was not of faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that Stumbling-stone;

as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stumbling-stone and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."

Der Alte · Apr 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
I agree with you that the Law of Moses is now "in the rear-view mirror", as it were. But, there is another way to deal with the "commandments are forever" texts. And it involves the meaning of the Hebrew word "owlam" that is often translated as "forever". Choosing to translate this word as "forever" is arguably an error, at least in some cases. Here is the definition of "owlam" from the Net Bible:
long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
So, as you can see, the word can refer to a finite, albeit long, time interval.

I have seen this discussion many. many times so I decided to do a study on the word "olam" in the OT. Here are some verses where "olam" is defined as "eternal."
How do we explain "olam" referring to something that is not "eternal?" Hyperbole.

Hab 1:12
(12) LORD, are you not from everlasting? [ עולם] My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will never die,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will never die,” ”eternal” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.
Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם] —everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."

In these two verses “olam” is paired with “will not be forgotten,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””eternal” does.

Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away, never be destroyed”, “eternal” does.

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

In this vs. "olam" is paired with "nothing can be added or taken away from God’s acts." “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts” “eternal” does.

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “unto all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,” “eternal” does. And “Olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off”

Ezekiel 28:19
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
Ezekiel 27:36
(36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]

In these two vss. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is

com7fy8 · Apr 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
I agree with you that the Law of Moses is now "in the rear-view mirror", as it were. But, there is another way to deal with the "commandments are forever" texts. And it involves the meaning of the Hebrew word "owlam" that is often translated as "forever".

Well, the LORD does say the Old Covenant is "forever", right? And Jesus says not one part of the Law shall pass away. So, to me this means it is "forever".

But God's word says we in Jesus have a better covenant.

Hebrews 7:22

Hebrews 8:6

Hebrews 12:24

And, by the way, Hebrews 7:12 says we in Jesus do not have the Levitical priesthood which is part of the Old Covenant. Jesus is our High Priest of all so superior to what the "everlasting" Old Covenant has to offer and requires.

But the Old Covenant is part of God's word. And yes God uses the Levitical priesthood, that He established . . . as an object lesson to show what can't work.

And so - - - God's word says "All" of God's word is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" > in 2 Timothy 3:16. Any scripture, then, can be used by God to help you find out how to love and relate with God while loving any and all people in sharing with Him. There is God's love meaning of any scripture; because God gave it all, and "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16).

Our Apostle Paul has clearly said how the early scriptures have helped him to know he needed Jesus > Romans 7:7 > in this case, helping him know how to love, by telling him what is not love. The Old Covenant exposed how Paul had sin problems. We need to see how we are wrong, so this can help us get all which is right with God. There are various ways the early scriptures can help us see how we are wrong and need Jesus. So, by doing this, the early scriptures are helping us to find out how to share with God and love any and all people.

And there are various things in early scripture which can help us to appreciate God more, plus understand better how He desires for us to love and relate.

And this will have an everlasting result, by helping us discover and grow in God's everlasting love. So, I would say the early Covenant is everlasting in its ministry. More practically, it exposes how humans have cheated their own selves by cheating on the LORD. It is humble enough to show us how it could not work, because of depending so much on the free wills of humans. God did all His wonders, perfect punishing, so well taking care of the Jews . . . proving Himself so greatly.

Yet, that could not work, as much as it depended on the humans!!!! Depending on human capability . . . at all . . . was guaranteed to failure.

And God knew that. But now . . . depending on how God is able to use the early scriptures . . . the Old Covenant can succeed in its originally intended purpose and therefore its rightful interpretation. So, possibly among other things, the Law of Moses is meant as an object lesson, of how nothing could work . . . even God's own perfect Law and His perfect every activity reported in early scripture > none of that could work . . . without His Son Jesus. Only by having Jesus living in us can we please God and live His way and stay this way because of His own Son formed in us as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
This is not really controversial Christian theology, but the theology of Christ and His apostles. I'm placing it here in this forum because of the threads that MAY bring those who belong to Christ back under bondage to the Law, if those who belong to Christ are not wide awake to them.

Exo 24:3 "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD has said will we do."

Exo 24:7-8 "And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

The elect had to make a promise of value in that covenant, therefore it was considered God's marriage-contract with Israel, and God (the "husband") promised Israel abundance of blessing in the land IF they obeyed ALL that God had commanded though Moses - but curses and exile from the land if they disobeyed - and because they are incapable of obeying, all that the law brings is curses and death.

Also, a marriage covenant is only "everlasting" until the 'wife' breaks the covenant, and as God said through Jeremiah, the "wife" had broken the covenant:

Both the ten Northern tribes and the tribe of Judah continuously broke the covenant, but in His mercy God promised a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah which would NOT BE ACCORDING to the covenant He made with them at Sinai:

Jer 31:31-32 "Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, says the LORD."

"Though I was a husband unto them" is the same as saying that though God remained faithful to His vows, the "wife" had continuously been unfaithful, and had therefore broken the covenant - and so their new moons, sabbaths and feasts became utterly distasteful to God, to the point that God even calls Israel "Sodom and Gomorrah":

Isa 1:10-14 "Hear the word of the LORD, all of you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, all of you people of Gomorrah.

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

When all of you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."

UNFIT FOR PURPOSE:

The Covenant God made with Israel "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" had proved unfit for purpose in two ways:

1. It was unfit for purpose in terms of God having an everlasting covenant relationship with His elect; and
2. It was unfit for purpose to bring life and righteousness to God's elect:

Rom 7:12-14: "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

The Law and the covenant at Sinai was unfit for purpose not because God was not faithful and capable, but because His elect were neither faithful nor capable.

THE TWO COVENANTS RATIFIED BY BLOOD - THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT

Blood has to do with sacrifice for sins and forgiveness for sins. The first covenant, given at Sinai, was ratified with blood:

Exo 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

Likewise the New Covenant was ratified by blood - but not with the blood of bulls and goats - with Christ's blood:

Mat 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

FOREVER

The New Covenant is everlasting, the old covenant is gone:

Heb 8:13 "In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away."

COMMANDMENTS IN THE LAW WHICH CONTAINED THE WORDS "EVERLASTING" AND "FOREVER"

.. are done away with and cease to exist - BECAUSE THEY WERE BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE AND THE COVENANT WHICH WAS BASED UPON THEM HAS BEEN REPLACED.

INSULTING THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT

It's an insult to God the Father and His Messiah who is Christ the Lord to seek to keep alive commandments (such as sabbath-keeping) which are part of the Old Covenant and have been done away with because the "wife" broke the covenant.

When God used the words "everlasting" and "forever" when He gave the Law and its commandments to His elect at Sinai, it's because HE was faithful and capable of keeping HIS vows - and IF (ONLY IF) the "wife" in that marriage-covenant had remained obedient and faithful, would that covenant INCLUDING ALL ITS COMMANDMENTS UPON WHICH IT WAS BASED, have remained "everlasting" and "forever".

So to the question: "Whatever happened to forever?" - those who belong to Christ know the answer - "forever" and "everlasting" in that covenant's commandments WAS BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE, and so the entire covenant needed replacing.

God would NEVER have first promised the New Covenant and Christ would NOT have come to shed His blood as a remission of sins if that covenant and those commandments were fit for purpose - but they are NOT fit for purpose.

Jesus said:

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

He said,

Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself."

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

NOT A LICENSE TO SIN

DEAD TO THE LAW

Rom 7:6 "But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST HAVE DIED TO THE LAW BECAUSE CHRIST ABOLISHED IT IN HIS FLESH WHEN HE DIED:

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the Law of commandments contained in ordinances) so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, making peace between them;"

DEAD TO SIN:

Rom 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know all of you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So the apostle John could write,

1John 2:1-3 "My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments."

WHICH COMMANDMENTS?

1. LOVE THE BRETHREN

John 13:34 " A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

2. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR

Matt 19:17-19 "And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

He said to Him, Which?

Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself."

IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Paul said,

Rom 13:9-10 "For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

3. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES (IT'S PART OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR)

Matt 5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

HOW DO WE KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?

Jesus told us how:

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

AGAIN, IT'S JUST AS PAUL LATER SAID,

Phil 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

Turning away from grace back to the Law and commandments of Moses will cause you to fall from grace:

John 1:17 "For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

JESUS REPRESENTS US BEFORE GOD, AND HE PERFECTLY OBEYED THE LAW OF MOSES AND ITS COMMANDMENTS ON OUR BEHALF - BECAUSE GOD'S ELECT WAS INCAPABLE OF OBEYING THEM, AND BROKE THE COVENANT.

THE LAWS OF MOSES AND THEIR COMMANDMENTS ARE FOREVER UNFIT FOR PURPOSE. CHRIST'S BLOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE FOREVER FIT FOR PURPOSE.

WHAT ROLE DOES GOD'S LAW HAVE IN THE GOSPEL (10 Commandments; tables of stone)?

Very simply God's LAW (10 commandments) *NEHEMIAH 10:29; EXODUS 20:1-17 have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's law defines what sin is *1 JOHN 3:4 which begin in the heart *MATTHEW 5.

According to the scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand condemned guilty before God "under the law"of breaking the whole law *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:19-20. Gods Law is our school master, our teacher that shows us our need of God's salvation. God's LAW shows us that we are all slaves of sin *ROMANS 3:9-18; ROMANS 7:1-24; ISAIAH 1:5-6; JEREMIAH 13:23 and leads us to the foot of the cross so we can call out to God in faith "Have mercy on me God for I am a sinner. It leads us to Christ that we can be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

It shows us that all we are all sick with sin and in need of a Physician for without many do not know the meaning of the Word of JESUS "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.*MATTHEW 9:12-13.

It is through God's law giving us a knowledge of our sins *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 that we see the love of God for us personally that he loved us so much that he sent His only begotten son (symbolic of Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac) into our world, the son of the God of heaven to die the death that we deserve to die on our behalf for our sins that whosoever believes His Words should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16-21.

You see Gods' LAW is so essentially a part of the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST that it is through God's LAW that JESUS is revealed to the sinner as our only hope of God's salvation and allows us through faith to walk in God's presence (the Spirit) *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16

Very simply....

1. If there is no law there can be no knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7
2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is we have no need of a Savior from our sins *MATTHEW 9:12-13
3. If we have no Savior from our sins we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the scriptures are fulfilled For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law *ROMANS 2:12

It is this very letter of the law that leads us to the Spirit of the law written on the heart through faith to love and it is only through love that we can follow him who calls us to love another and love is the fulfilling and establsihing of the law in the heart of those who believe and follow God's Word *HEBREWS 8:10-12; MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12.

Do we make void the law of God through faith? No we establsih the law through faith *ROMANS 3:31. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4

God's LAW leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. You cannot separate law and the cross and law and the Gospel as it is God's Law that leads to both and is a part of the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ who paid the laws penalty for our sins that we can walk in newness of life.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.

expos4ever · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Very simply God's LAW (10 commandments) *NEHEMIAH 10:29; EXODUS 20:1-17 have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7;

Not this this simple - you are making assumptions and doing violence to context.

About Romans 3:20:

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

You are takings this out of context. In this part of Romans 3, Paul is describing the historical situation; he is not describing what is the case after Jesus has done His work. And here is how we know this: just a few words later, Paul says this:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,.....

Paul is giving us a history lesson: up to now, the Law did indeed give us the knowledge of sin, but now that Jesus has accomplished his mission, things have changed.

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
WHAT ROLE DOES GOD'S LAW HAVE IN THE GOSPEL (10 Commandments; tables of stone)?

Very simply God's LAW (10 commandments) *NEHEMIAH 10:29; EXODUS 20:1-17 have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's law defines what sin is *1 JOHN 3:4 which begin in the heart *MATTHEW 5.

According to the scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand condemned guilty before God "under the law"of breaking the whole law *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:19-20. Gods Law is our school master, our teacher that shows us our need of God's salvation. God's LAW shows us that we are all slaves of sin *ROMANS 3:9-18; ROMANS 7:1-24; ISAIAH 1:5-6; JEREMIAH 13:23 and leads us to the foot of the cross so we can call out to God in faith "Have mercy on me God for I am a sinner. It leads us to Christ that we can be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

It shows us that all we are all sick with sin and in need of a Physician for without many do not know the meaning of the Word of JESUS "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.*MATTHEW 9:12-13.

It is through God's law giving us a knowledge of our sins *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 that we see the love of God for us personally that he loved us so much that he sent His only begotten son (symbolic of Abrahams sacrifice of Isaac) into our world, the son of the God of heaven to die the death that we deserve to die on our behalf for our sins that whosoever believes His Words should not perish but have eternal life *JOHN 3:16-21.

You see Gods' LAW is so essentially a part of the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST that it is through God's LAW that JESUS is revealed to the sinner as our only hope of God's salvation and allows us through faith to walk in God's presence (the Spirit) *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16

Very simply....

1. If there is no law there can be no knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7
2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is we have no need of a Savior from our sins *MATTHEW 9:12-13
3. If we have no Savior from our sins we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and the scriptures are fulfilled For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law *ROMANS 2:12

It is this very letter of the law that leads us to the Spirit of the law written on the heart through faith to love and it is only through love that we can follow him who calls us to love another and love is the fulfilling and establsihing of the law in the heart of those who believe and follow God's Word *HEBREWS 8:10-12; MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12.

Do we make void the law of God through faith? No we establsih the law through faith *ROMANS 3:31. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4

God's LAW leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. You cannot separate law and the cross and law and the Gospel as it is God's Law that leads to both and is a part of the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ who paid the laws penalty for our sins that we can walk in newness of life.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.

What you are basically saying is that the law was a teacher to bring us to Christ, and I agree 100% with that.

Jesus replaced the old covenant + all the laws and commandments it was based on, and gave us ONE commandment - and then told us to abide in Him so that GOD HIMSELF could write that ONE commandment on our hearts and out it in pur minds.

That ONE commandment fulfills all the Law of Moses - and Christ our Savior has already fulfilled it on our behalf and makes it possible for us to fulfill it too, by abiding in Him and walking according to the Spirit.

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

Hope that whoever reads this thread and does not miss this because it's something which all Christians should not overlook and should never ever forget:

The law was a teacher to bring us to Christ - but Jesus summed up all the laws and commandments in ONE commandment and said that that ONE commandment fullfilled ALL, and HE fulfilled the Law and through His blood of the New covenant, replaced the old covenant + all the laws and commandments it was based on, and gave us that ONE commandment - and then told us to abide in Him so that GOD HIMSELF could write that ONE commandment on our hearts and put it in our minds.

That ONE commandment fulfills all the Law of Moses - and Christ our Savior has already fulfilled it on our behalf and makes it possible for us to fulfill it too, if we abide in Him and walk according to the Spirit.

expos4ever · Apr 25, 2020

com7fy8 said:
And Jesus says not one part of the Law shall pass away.

I addressed this in another thread. Here is my response to this:

Many do not understand how, or refuse to believe that, Jews used the language of cosmic collapse as a metaphor for sociopolitical change: such texts were never intended to be taken literally.

Example: Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Look at the context - Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. No stars fell. And the moon was not darkened.

More evidence for this line of reasoning can be provided. But the bottom line for the present discussion is this: when Jesus says that the Law will last until "heaven and earth pass away", he is not necessarily declaring the Law of Moses will last until heaven and earth literally pass away.

Our opponents in this discussion will no doubt protest with great vigour. But the evidence is there: this language is very likely not to be taken literally.

Zao is life · Apr 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
I addressed this in another thread. Here is my response to this:

Many do not understand how, or refuse to believe that, Jews used the language of cosmic collapse as a metaphor for sociopolitical change: such texts were never intended to be taken literally.

Example: Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Look at the context - Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. No stars fell. And the moon was not darkened.

More evidence for this line of reasoning can be provided. But the bottom line for the present discussion is this: when Jesus says that the Law will last until "heaven and earth pass away", he is not necessarily declaring the Law of Moses will last until heaven and earth literally pass away.

Our opponents in this discussion will no doubt protest with great vigour. But the evidence is there: this language is very likely not to be taken literally.

I like this post. It's actually very important information you're giving. Hope it's not overlooked by those who read it,

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Very simply God's LAW (10 commandments) *NEHEMIAH 10:29; EXODUS 20:1-17 have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172

Your response...

expos4ever said:
Not this this simple - you are making assumptions and doing violence to context.

Nonsense dear friend but let's examine your claims though and prove why through scripture.

expos4ever said:
About Romans 3:20: because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Now look at the post you are quoting from above. There is nothing in the post you are quoting from that says we are justified by keeping the law. ROMANS 3:20 and the context is to the law giving us a knowledge of what sin is when the law is broken and that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. My post is not saying we are justified by the law at all. ROMANS 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN agrees with my post you are quoting from. No one said we are justified by keeping the law, for the purpose of the law is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

expos4ever said:
You are takings this out of context. In this part of Romans 3, Paul is describing the historical situation; he is not describing what is the case after Jesus has done His work. And here is how we know this: just a few words later, Paul says this: But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,.....Paul is giving us a history lesson: up to now, the Law did indeed give us the knowledge of sin, but now that Jesus has accomplished his mission, things have changed.

Nonsense, nothing has been taken out of context but let this be proven through the light of the scriptures so there is no doubt for only God's Word is true and it is to this light all claims are tested.

Let's start from v8-18 These scriptures show the context...

ROMANS 3:9-18
[9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for WE HAVE BEFORE PROVED BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
[10], AS IT IS WRITTEN, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE:
]11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13], Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The context of v19-20 is that we are all sinners none are rightoues no not one v9 ALL ARE UNDER SIN, all have broken God's LAW because sin is breaking God's LAW (1 John 3:4; James 2:11; Romans 7:7)

ROMANS 3:19-20
[19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Now v19, in connection with the Context of v9-18 us summing up what has been previously said saying that those who are "UNDER THE LAW" are those who are GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking the LAW v9 confirms this saying both JEWS and GENTILES are ALL UNDER SIN, which means we are all GUILTY before GOD of breaking God's LAW.v 19

[20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Now how is all this so? WHY? PAUL is saying in v20 FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is.

So YEP... to be "UNDER THE LAW" in ROMANS 3:19-20 means to be GUILTY BEFORE GOD of breaking it and both JEW and GENTILE are guilty before GOD and need a Saviour.

As you can see dear friend CONTEXT agrees with what has been shared with you that through God's LAW is the knowledge of what sin is. This is made even more clear in ROMANS 7:7 which was also posted where PAUL says ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET. Paul is quoting the 10th commandment in EXODUS 20:17.

...........

CONCLUSION: Context was applied and your claims are unfounded.

Hope this is helpful

expos4ever · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Now look at the post you are quoting from above. There is nothing in the post you are quoting from that says we are justified by keeping the law. ROMANS 3:20 and the context is to the law giving us a knowledge of what sin is when the law is broken and that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. My post is not saying we are justified by the law at all. ROMANS 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN agrees with my post you are quoting from. No one said we are justified by keeping the law, for the purpose of the law is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

My point was simply this: even though Romans 3:20 says the Law gives the Jew knowledge of sin, one cannot, as you appeared to be doing, argue that the Law must still be in force since, by implication, how would we know what sin was without the Law.

We don't need the Law anymore - we have the Spirit.

expos4ever · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Let's start from v8-18 These scriptures show the context...

ROMANS 3:9-18
......
The context of v19-20 is that we are all sinners none are rightoues no not one v9 ALL ARE UNDER SIN, all have broken God's LAW because sin is breaking God's LAW (1 John 3:4; James 2:11; Romans 7:7)..........

You have evaded my argument. And nothing you posted shows that we still need the Law. Yes, the Law did give knowledge of sin, and it may still may be able to so.

But we don't need to refer to the Law, we have the Spirit to guide us now:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

You evaded my argument about Romans 3, which was that this "but now" shows that Paul has effectively put Romans 3:20 in the rear-view mirror. Remember: he says the following almost immediately after verse 20:

But now apart [k]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Plus you also appear to make the error that the Gentiles are subject to the Law. They most certainly were not and I challenge you to name even one reputable scholar who believes otherwise.

expos4ever · Apr 25, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
This is made even more clear in ROMANS 7:7 which was also posted where PAUL says ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET. Paul is quoting the 10th commandment in EXODUS 20:17.

You are making my case for me - "I would not have known" sin without the Law.

Past tense. Past tense.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
My point was simply this: even though Romans 3:20 says the Law gives the Jew knowledge of sin, one cannot, as you appeared to be doing, argue that the Law must still be in force since, by implication, how would we know what sin was without the Law.

We don't need the Law anymore - we have the Spirit.

No it wasn't dear friend your post was claiming I was taking scripture out of context and making claims I never said (strawman). This was proven false by showing context showing that through the law is the knowledge of what sin is. Of course God's law is in force today if there was no law there would be no knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTREOUSNESS as shown in the new covenant scriptures *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 13:8-10; HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 8:1-4. etc etc.

Let's follow your interpretation of the scriptures through...

1. If there is no Law we have no knowledge of what sin is.
2. If we have no knowledge of what sin is then we do not know we are sinners in need of a Saviour
3. If we have no need of a Saviour we have no salvation because we are still in our sins and lost.

The scripture is then fulfilled "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" ROMANS 2:12.

Can you see where your interpretation of the scriptures is leading you dear friend? This is why JESUS said to the Scribes and Pharisees "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick but go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." MATTHEW 9:12-13

How are you going to know your sick if you have no mirror? God's LAW is the mirror that leads us to the great Physician and leads us to the cross so we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25 and faith does not abolish God's law it establishes it *ROMANS 3:31.

Hope this helps.

The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

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