The new covenant ?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Not sure what you are asking. Moshe was a Levite as was Aaron. Yeshua was of Judah.

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And the priests did not inherit with the twelve tribes? So two conundrums. I am getting to the twelve tribes of revelation.

Davy said:

Sorry, but you are misinformed.

Judaism was a creation of the scribes and Pharisees which came out of the 70 years Babylon captivity. That is where the Babylonian Talmud originated. They changed usage to Aramaic and they treated the Talmud sage writings as their main tradition. That is why our Lord Jesus warned about their making void The Word of God by their traditions. So by your inferring that Jesus agreed with their teachings shows you have not understood what He taught hardly at all.

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Rabbinic/Talmudic Judaism vs Torah Judaism? Matthew 23:2-3

Studyman said:

There are many doctrines in the religions of this land. They are so many one can not count them. But there is only one Holy Scriptures and One God that inspired them. I don't buy into the religion which teaches that Paul taught against or differently than the God of the Bible.

Abraham had and obeyed God's Commandments, Statutes, and Laws. This can not be denied if God's Word is the source. God did tell Isaac he was Blessed because of Abraham's belief and obedience to HIS Commandments. I posted HIS very Words which clearly show this.

God told Cain the same thing. "If you do well, shall you not be accepted?"

Paul confirms this truth in the beginning of His preaching the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

And again;

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This aligns perfectly with the Word's of God to Isaac on Gen. 26 and also confirms Paul's declaration and belief of the Law and Prophets that the mainstream religion of his time called heresy.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The main focus of my reply was to discuss what Paul was referring to when he said man was not "Justified" by "works of the Law"?

So what were the "Works" required by Law for the atonement of sins essential for justification? Should I not ask that question?

Did Moses say "If a man sins, he shall Love his Neighbor as him self", or "keep God's Sabbath Holy, and his sins will be forgiven? Were the Pharisees, the children of satan, teaching the new converts that before they can be saved they must first "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart"?

No Davy. If a man believes in the Word of God which became Flesh, he would know that God gave Aaron and the tribe of Levi a Priesthood specifically to provide for the atonement of sins, and justification, "til the seed should come". This Priesthood included various sacrificial "Works of the Law" (EX. Law of sin offering, Law of burnt offering, etc.) which were required before a man could become righteous, or have his sins forgiven. The Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied "SEED", were still promoting their version of these "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins.

Paul called this Law, "The Law of Works" in Rom. 3. Abraham was justified to be sure, but not by the "Law of Works" ADDED 430 years after he obeyed God's Commandments. He was justified by the "Law of Faith". The Pharisees had omitted these Laws from their religion, at least if a man believes in the Jesus of the Bible.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I know this isn't taught in the religions of the land, but if a man would look into it, they would see that what I have posted is true, at least according to the Scriptures.

Thanks for the reply. I know how difficult it is to address scriptures which may bring a religious belief into question.

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Hello Studyman. I think it might serve you well to look into the Levitical priesthood. The high priest on the day of atonement was for the circumcision of the flesh, the twelve tribes of Israel. They did not atone for Gentiles.

Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
On the high priests breastplate, he bore their names.
Ex 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
Ex 39:14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

How did one not born of Abrahams loins get his names there?
Inter marriage
Through childbearing and circumcision of the flesh...
In the greek the term stranger is proselyte, and houseslave for sojourner.

21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Studyman said:

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

Wow,

Thanks for the spirit filled reply.

I don't agree that posting scriptures and posing questions about them is pushing a false religion. But you are free to believe as you wish.

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I don't agree with the pushing the law into Abraham's belief on the Promise by Faith. Obviously Apostle Paul didn't agree with that law pushing either, because that is what the Romans 4 and Galatians 3 Scripture is about, Scripture that you keep sidetracking on purpose.

pescador said:

Did I say anything about Jesus agreeing with the Pharisees and Sadducees? They had taken historical Judaism created by the Torah given at Mount Sinai and perverted it for their own ends. "He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him." There was nothing wrong with Judaism, but with the religious leaders.

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What is the basis of the word 'Judaism'? It's from the name Judah.

So you're going to tell me that the tribe of JUDAH began the religion that God gave through Moses per covenant to Israel???

Judah was only ONE TRIBE involved in God giving His law and covenant to the children of Israel through Moses! There were 11 OTHER TRIBES OF ISRAEL involved!

The time when the Jews (i.e., "house of Judah") began to put THEIR label Judaism on the old covenant and law was AFTER God split old Israel in Rehoboam's days. That is 'how' the name of 'Judaism' came to be applied, because it only involved the Jews, and not the majority of Israelites. And the era that happened was during the times of Judah's rebellion against God in Jeremiah's days and in their Babylon captivity by Nebuchadnezzar.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Rabbinic/Talmudic Judaism vs Torah Judaism? Matthew 23:2-3

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the scribes =
1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

the Kenites =
Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV

Barnes Commentary has an interesting note on those Kenites:
1 Chron 2:55
[Kenites] It is remarkable that Kenites-people of a race quite distinct from the Israelites (Genesis 15:19)-should be attached to, and, as it were, included in the descendants of Judah. It seems, however, that the friendly feeling between the two tribes-based on the conduct of the Kenites at the time of the Exodus (Exodus 18:10-19; Numbers 10:29-32; 1 Samuel 15:6)-led to their intermixture and almost amalgamation with the Israelites, Kenite families not only dwelling among them but being actually regarded as of one blood with them.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

Judges 2 & 3 reveals God's anger at the children of Israel for not completely destroying the nations of Canaan He commanded them. Because of that He said He would leave those Canaanites among Israel as a test. By the time of 1 Chronicles 2, they had already crept in as the scribes of Israel in charge of keeping the letters of God's written Word. No wonder they hated Jesus Christ and wanted to murder Him.

A similar thing happened with others groups of the Canaanites, as they became temple workers, Nethinims, and by the time of the return of Judah from Babylon they had a home right in the city of David at the tower of Ophel (Nehemiah 3:26).

For this reason, God revealed the following through His prophet Zedekiah for after Jesus' return...


Zech 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

So the Jews can call it 'Judaism' all they like, but in reality God's covenant He made was with Israel, meaning all 12 tribes of the children of Israel. The Jews were a separate branch of Israel which God split from the ten tribes per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17. That's why they took the name Jew which comes from the sole tribe of Judah, and was put only for those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. And all the strangers living among them took the name Jew also (this per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D.).

Thus 'Judaism' is a JEWISH religion of the Jews, NOT the original religion God gave to all Israel through Moses.

Davy said:

So the Jews can call it 'Judaism' all they like, but in reality God's covenant He made was with Israel, meaning all 12 tribes of the children of Israel. The Jews were a separate branch of Israel which God split from the ten tribes per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17. That's why they took the name Jew which comes from the sole tribe of Judah, and was put only for those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. And all the strangers living among them took the name Jew also (this per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D.).

Thus 'Judaism' is a JEWISH religion of the Jews, NOT the original religion God gave to all Israel through Moses.

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And Sephardim? And Mizrahim? What "Judaism" do THEY keep? Where are the other 10 tribes? Judah and Benyamin were left. Paul calls himself a Jew, yet he was from the tribe of Benyamin. Yeshua Himself was a Jew from Judah...So Yeshua is not part of the original religion God gave to all Israel at Sinai??

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

And Sephardim? And Mizrahim? What "Judaism" do THEY keep? Where are the other 10 tribes? Judah and Benyamin were left. Paul calls himself a Jew, yet he was from the tribe of Benyamin. Yeshua Himself was a Jew from Judah...So Yeshua is not part of the original religion God gave to all Israel at Sinai??

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Paul calls himself an Israelite...Philippians 3:5...circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews....

ralliann said:

Hello Studyman. I think it might serve you well to look into the Levitical priesthood. The high priest on the day of atonement was for the circumcision of the flesh, the twelve tribes of Israel. They did not atone for Gentiles.

Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
On the high priests breastplate, he bore their names.
Ex 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
Ex 39:14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

How did one not born of Abrahams loins get his names there?
Inter marriage
Through childbearing and circumcision of the flesh...
In the greek the term stranger is proselyte, and houseslave for sojourner.

21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.

22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

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This is certainly a topic worth discussing.

I think we should consider the Hebrew meaning for words when discussing Old Testament.

Sojourner = toshab; A dweller, esp. as a native citizen, and a tempory inmate or mere lodger, resident alien:- foreigner, inhabitant, stranger.

Stranger = geyr; a foreigner:- Alien, sojourner, stranger.

Sojourneth = guwr; To turn aside from the road (for a lodging or any other purpose) sojourn (as a guest) to shrink, fear (as in a strange place) also to gather for hostility (as be afraid) abide, assemble, be afraid, dwell, fear, gather (together) inhabitant, remain, stand in awe.

We can have the discussion about God and whether HIS intent regarding HIS Words, "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.", was only speaking to humans with Hebrew DNA or not later.

But the point of my post on this thread is to ask about what "works of the Law" Paul is referring to when speaking about forgiveness or justification. How can we understand what "Works of the LAW" were being pushed onto the new converts for atonement if we don't look at the Law God gave the Levites for atonement?

Right now I think it prudent to understand what LAW was "ADDED" and what was it ADDED to, in Gal. 4.

One thing is for certain. Abraham was forgiven his sins. But not by the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" ADDED 430 years later.

Davy said:

I don't agree with the pushing the law into Abraham's belief on the Promise by Faith. Obviously Apostle Paul didn't agree that law pushing either, because that is what the Romans 4 and Galatians 3 Scripture is about, Scripture that you keep sidetracking on purpose.

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In Roman's 4 Paul is following up on his teaching the Romans about the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of his time.

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So Paul is speaking about the Jews and their "Unbelief" in God's Word. Did their unbelief make God's Word void? No, let God be true and let men who don't believe HIS Words, become liars.

25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

What I am trying to point out is that from Moses to Jesus there was a "LAW" which addressed "remission of sins" or forgiveness, or atonement. It included various Priesthood "works" which were required, by law, before sins could be forgiven. These "Works of the Law" were ADDED "because of transgressions" according to Paul in Galatians, some 430 years after Abraham.

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I asked once, "what Law did God give Moses for the atonement of sins"?

Why would anyone refuse to answer such a basic question?

Rom. 4: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Was Abraham justified by the Law of Atonement God gave to Moses? No, it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years later.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Abraham had God's Judgments, Statutes, Commandments and Laws.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

And again;

Gen. 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Paul understood and taught this.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Not justified by the "Law of Works" the Jews were still pushing onto the new converts, but by Belief/Faith/obedience in and to the Gospel of Christ the Jews didn't believe but Abraham did.

Abraham didn't have the "works of the Law" God gave, by Covenant, to the tribe of Levi specifically for the atonement/forgiveness of sins. They were not "ADDED" to God's Judgments, Commandments, Statutes and Laws until 430 years later.

What if religious man refuses to believe these Word's of God I posted? Shall their unbelief make my belief/Faith in God of none effect? God forbid. Let God be true.

pasifika said:

Paul calls himself an Israelite...Philippians 3:5...circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews....

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Acts 22:3. And Yeshua?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

and Yeshua?

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Yeshua was also an Israelite, circumcised on the eight day.

pescador said:

Yeshua was also an Israelite, circumcised on the eight day.

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AND from the tribe of JUDAH...

pescador said:

Yeshua was also an Israelite, circumcised on the eight day.

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Matt. 2:1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

I agree with you that the term "Jews" in most of the New testament referred to all Israelite's.

Jesus wasn't Prophesied to be ONLY the King of the tribe of Judah.

Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews", I'm quite sure HE didn't mean ONLY one of the 12 Tribes.

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

I'm quite sure this didn't mean they inquired as to what tribe a man belonged to and if they were not from the tribe of Judah, they didn't preach the Word to them.

Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

I don't believe Paul is suggesting that only the tribe of Judah was under sin.

I agree that the term "Jew" is used most often to describe Israelites in the NT.

Deade said:

New Covenant​

When the disciples received the Holy Ghost in Acts 2, what was the reference to Joel about? And what about the part in the last verse (2:21) “that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved?”

Acts 2:16-21: “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Has there been any era where that has happened? Joel chapter 1 speaks about the devastation of the earth and the Day of the Lord (Future events).

Then Joel 2 ends with: 31: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” 32: “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”

Many say we are already in God’s new covenant that was prophesied in the OT and in Acts/Hebrews.

Heb. 8:7-13 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Do you see the direct link between Jeremiah and Hebrews? What about the parallels in Acts and Joel?

Acts 2:16-18 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”

First a time frame in Joel: Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”

Next, it speaks of a restoration after the Day of the Lord. Then we are given a picture of the new covenant: Joel 2:28, 29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today. So, ask yourself: when is it?

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That is a corrupt... doctrine.

The New Covenant was offered by Jesus to His disciples, and He sealed it with His death on the cross and His resurrection. Right here is when it WENT INTO EFFECT...

Luke 22:14-20
14 And when the hour was come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him.

15 And He said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come."

19 And He took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of Me."

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you."
KJV


Those who do not believe The New Testament became in effect with Jesus' crucifixion cannot claim to be a Christian.

To reject that Jesus ended the old covenant and brought The New Covenant by His Blood shed upon the cross is the same thing as rejecting His offer of Salvation through His Blood shed for the remission of sins for those who 'believe'. Those who have not Jesus Christ then, also do not have The Father, as Apostle John declared...

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

pasifika said:

Paul calls himself an Israelite...Philippians 3:5...circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews....

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Yes, Paul numbered himself among the Jews, because he was born of the tribe of Benjamin.

Many of my Christian brethren get confused about that when they learn the word 'Jew' originates from the tribe of Judah, so how could Paul call himself a Jew having been born of the tribe of Benjamin? It's because many brethren don't study their Old Testament Bible history why they don't understand that.

After Solomon's days, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11 forward). He gave ten tribes to Jeroboam who was of the tribe of Ephraim. The southern kingdom was made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, which is where Paul's connection as a Jew comes from, even though he was born of the tribe of Benjamin.

It was mostly the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, along with foreigners who went captive to Babylon with them that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity (Ezra 2). And it was only a remnant of them, the majority of them chose to stay in Babylon because of how God had taken care of them there.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

And Sephardim? And Mizrahim? What "Judaism" do THEY keep? Where are the other 10 tribes? Judah and Benyamin were left. Paul calls himself a Jew, yet he was from the tribe of Benyamin. Yeshua Himself was a Jew from Judah...So Yeshua is not part of the original religion God gave to all Israel at Sinai??

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The original religion God gave to Israel through Moses was NOT... to Jews of the "house of Judah" only. God offered His covenant to ALL the children of Israel, not just the Jews of the southern kingdom.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) says the name 'Jew' came from the tribe of Judah, and it is the name the remnant that returned from the 70 years Babylon captivity used, as also the strangers dwelling among them in Judea did. I believe that label began earlier though, prior to the their going captivity to Babylon. I believe it began sometime after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17.

The Two Kingdoms:
1. "house of Judah" or "kingdom of Judah" under Solomon's son Rehoboam; capital city at Jerusalem and only included the southern lands of Judea = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and eventually Levi, and also some small numbers that refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship and instead trekked south to join with Judah.

2. "house of Israel", or "kingdom of Israel" under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. Capital city at Samaria in the northern lands. This was made up of ten tribes of Israel, the majority of Israelites.

God removed the ten northern tribes of the "kingdom of Israel" first. Only the house of Judah was left in Judea. About 120 years after that, He removed the Jews captive to Babylon for 70 years, and only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem. Thus their claim to be the only Israel since the ten tribes have been lost. During that Babylon captivity is when Judah mixed greatly with the Canaanites (Ezra 9). That is when their leaven traditions crept in, which is where Judaism originates.

Studyman said:

In Roman's 4 Paul is following up on his teaching the Romans about the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of his time.

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So Paul is speaking about the Jews and their "Unbelief" in God's Word. Did their unbelief make God's Word void? No, let God be true and let men who don't believe HIS Words, become liars.

25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

What I am trying to point out is that from Moses to Jesus there was a "LAW" which addressed "remission of sins" or forgiveness, or atonement. It included various Priesthood "works" which were required, by law, before sins could be forgiven. These "Works of the Law" were ADDED "because of transgressions" according to Paul in Galatians, some 430 years after Abraham.

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Paul isn't teaching the law there in Romans 3 either. I choose to NOT skip these verses that you did skip...

Rom 3:21-24
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
KJV

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I asked once, "what Law did God give Moses for the atonement of sins"?

Why would anyone refuse to answer such a basic question?

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You simply are way off... on the wrong track. It's like you saw that phrase "the law of faith" and decided that would be a good in-road to insert your ideas of the law into that Scripture, when actually... that verse isn't literally pointing to the law, because Paul shows there what he is talking about does NOT INVOLVE WORKS. And surely you well know Paul's stand about the idea of works is NOT about Grace, but about the law. So what you have tried to do is take advantage of a short phrase and remove its meaning out of Paul's context he gave in that same verse!

So will you continue to create a whole false doctrine of works around that singular phrase "the law of faith"? Probably, no doubt.

Rom. 4: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Was Abraham justified by the Law of Atonement God gave to Moses? No, it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years later.

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That's not what that verse is really saying. In simplicity Paul said there Abraham was not justified by works, meaning by the law. Instead, Abraham believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness. And that idea Paul says, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God," is Paul contrasting the idea of 'belief' in opposition to works of the law. Abraham's Faith had NOTHING to do with the law, and that's why Abraham could not glory through his works.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Abraham had God's Judgments, Statutes, Commandments and Laws.

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I see you have a problem recognizing what Paul said there too.

In simplicity, Paul says the old covenant given 430 years later cannot disannul the Promise God first gave to Abraham, which as per Paul above was by Faith, and had NOTHING to do with the law.

It's obvious you're not going to heed the actual Scripture context, so I won't waste my time with the rest of your post.

Davy said:

Yes, Paul numbered himself among the Jews, because he was born of the tribe of Benjamin.

Many of my Christian brethren get confused about that when they learn the word 'Jew' originates from the tribe of Judah, so how could Paul call himself a Jew having been born of the tribe of Benjamin? It's because many brethren don't study their Old Testament Bible history why they don't understand that.

After Solomon's days, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms (1 Kings 11 forward). He gave ten tribes to Jeroboam who was of the tribe of Ephraim. The southern kingdom was made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, which is where Paul's connection as a Jew comes from, even though he was born of the tribe of Benjamin.

It was mostly the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, along with foreigners who went captive to Babylon with them that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity (Ezra 2). And it was only a remnant of them, the majority of them chose to stay in Babylon because of how God had taken care of them there.

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Did Paul called himself a Jew?

="Davy, post: 74929824, member: 404357"]Paul isn't teaching the law there in Romans 3 either. I choose to NOT skip these verses that you did skip...

Rom 3:21-24
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
KJV

I'm not skipping any Scriptures. I understand the doctrine you are promoting. That Abraham was righteous "without" the Word of God, even before God gave him a commandment, instruction, told him to change his ways etc. I understand that you have been convinced that Abraham was righteous "without" God's Word, Law, Command, etc.

But when I turn from your religious voice, and seek God by listening to His Own Word, I find this doctrine of your untrue.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

There is the Commandment. There is the "LAW of God". I can easily understand this truth because this same Christ gave me the very same Commandment.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And does the Scriptures teach us that Abraham believed God?

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

So I get that we are born into a religion just as Abraham was. But the Christ told Abraham and all of us, to "deny" our old self and follow Him.

So when was Righteousness imputed unto Abraham? Before the Christ gave Him the Commandment to "deny Himself" or was righteousness imputed unto him because "Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"

So Abraham had God's instruction, and followed it. And God did what HE Promised. Abraham was "justified" by Faith, not by the "works of atonement laws" ADDED 430 years later.

You simply are way off... on the wrong track. It's like you saw that phrase "the law of faith" and decided that would be a good in-road to insert your ideas of the law into that Scripture, when actually... that verse isn't literally pointing to the law, because Paul shows there what he is talking about does NOT INVOLVE WORKS. And surely you well know Paul's stand about the idea of works is NOT about Grace, but about the law. So what you have tried to do is take advantage of a short phrase and remove its meaning out of Paul's context he gave in that same verse!

So will you continue to create a whole false doctrine of works around that singular phrase "the law of faith"? Probably, no doubt.

I understand your anger. But there is no call to insult or attribute maliciousness to my questions or judge me as a heretic. I posted scriptures and asked you questions. If you don't want to discuss the scriptures, then just say so.


"That's not what that verse is really saying. In simplicity Paul said there Abraham was not justified by works, meaning by the law. Instead, Abraham believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness. And that idea Paul says, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God," is Paul contrasting the idea of 'belief' in opposition to works of the law. Abraham's Faith had NOTHING to do with the law, and that's why Abraham could not glory through his works."

What the Scriptures teach is that from the very beginning God gave Abraham a Command, as HE gives to everyone who HE calls. You can deny or ignore this Biblical Truth if you want. Me, I'm more interested in what the Holy scriptures, inspired by God, are saying, especially given all the warning about religious men who come in Christ's Name.

Paul knows that "SIN" is the destroyer of men. And "sin" is transgression of God's instruction/Laws/ Commandments, whatever term you want to use. I posted some of his words regarding these things, but you reject or ignore them.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (Not "deeds" of the Law of Atonement "added" till the Seed should come".

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law (Like Abraham) shall be justified.

Now these are also Paul's Words. And they align perfectly with every Scriptures in the Bible including his own words in the following chapter. We all have been influenced by the "other religious voices" in our life just as Eve was influenced by the "other religious voice" in the garden.

The Mainstream preachers of Paul's time also omitted much of God's instruction, and it didn't end well for them.

Matt.23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I asked you once, what Law did God give the Levites on Israels behalf specifically for the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness Abraham received "Apart from the Law"?

What Law was Abraham "without"? Not God's Commandments, Judgments, Statutes and Laws. At least if one "believes" the God of the Bible. But Levi wasn't even born yet. So we know Abraham was justified "without the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement "ADDED" to God's LAWS, Judgments, Statutes, and Commandments Abraham obeyed.

You don't believe this but you only offer your own words. No offence, but your unbelief doesn't make God's Words of no effect.


"I see you have a problem recognizing what Paul said there too.

In simplicity, Paul says the old covenant given 430 years later cannot disannul the Promise God first gave to Abraham, which as per Paul above was by Faith, and had NOTHING to do with the law."

How can a man have Faith in God but reject HIS instruction? Paul most certainly NEVER taught such a thing. Actually he taught just the opposite.

Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, (Transgress God's Laws) because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (that means NO)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Obedience to what?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Obeyed what?

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


Here is where you are off the rails. Paul said no flesh is forgiven by "Works, Deeds of the Law".

I have asked you, "What were the "DEEDS" of the Law of forgiveness given on Mt. Sinai? You know the answer, but you won't say it. You also seem to reject the part of the Gospel which teaches Faith without Works is dead. And you also choose to deny the Word's of the Very Christ Himself.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

"It's obvious you're not going to heed the actual Scripture context, so I won't waste my time with the rest of your post."

I probably won't erase all the scriptures from my heart that you don't believe, just to belong to your religion. I would, however, engage in a discussion and allow you to answer the questions posed. And you can ask me questions as well and we can have a brotherly discussion about "EVERY Word the proceeds from the Mouth of God" But if you are just here to promote your own religion, then you are right, it would be a waste of time.