The Earth will Burn

sovereigngrace said:

I believe the calling to the wedding feast symbolizes the evangelistic call, which started in the old covenant and carried through to new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ.

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Absolutely agree, the "calling" is the evangelistic call. Absolutely agree it began prior to the institution of the new covenant.

What would you state the "gathering" into the wedding hall is, especially when ancient jewish weddings had the wedding feast after the consummation?

sovereigngrace said:

The wedding and consummation occurs at His climactic return when the great commission concludes.

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This tells me when you believe the wedding feast happens, but what do you believe the wedding feast actually is?


Are the angels gathering the elect to the wedding feast following the destruction of Jerusalem as stated in the olivet discourse?

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b ’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

keras said:

Many will be very embarrassed and will bitterly regret their promotion of false ideas.
Why take that risk? James 3:1
Wouldn't it be better to just keep quiet about your beliefs if they aren't clearly stated in the Bible?

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This is ironic coming from someone who has speculated 2nd coming dates that failed to come to fruition in the past. When's your next speculative guess, 2033ad, right?

How about address the content of the post that you specifically disagree with and why instead of a personal attack drive by.....

claninja said:

Absolutely agree, the "calling" is the evangelistic call. Absolutely agree it began prior to the institution of the new covenant.

What would you state the "gathering" into the wedding hall is, especially when ancient jewish weddings had the wedding feast after the consummation?



This tells me when you believe the wedding feast happens, but what do you believe the wedding feast actually is?


Are the angels gathering the elect to the wedding feast following the destruction of Jerusalem as stated in the olivet discourse?

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b ’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

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This is all symbolic. There are no competing or following wedding feasts. The Coming of the Lord is the end.

claninja said:

This is ironic coming from someone who has speculated 2nd coming dates that failed to come to fruition in the past. When's your next speculative guess, 2033ad, right?

How about address the content of the post that you specifically disagree with and why instead of a personal attack drive by.....

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So true! Well said! If you cannot attack the message, attack the messenger.

keras said:

Why does the fact I use Bible verses to obtain approximate dates; upset you?

My post #120 was written to everyone who have and promote false beliefs. I reiterate Gods warning to them, to take great care to not be deceived and anyone who promotes false teachings, will be more severely judged.
I also object to the way this thread has been

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Christians don’t speculate, they let Scripture speak for itself. If you did you would be Amil.

keras said:

How come, then; there about as many theories and views of Bible prophecy as there is people who study it?
Amil; do you mean there will be no Millennium?
How is it possible to even consider that idea, in the light of Revelation 20? I regard that theory as totally unscriptural.

As for 'attacking the messenger', it was the Bible prophets of old who were attacked and even killed for their pronouncements. I promote what they said, as per the OP of this thread. So when I get abused and vilified, my threads derailed or ignored, it is just par for the course.

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You need to look in the mirror instead of hurling your ad hominem and false charges at others. Be careful, a boomerang can sometimes come back to hit the thrower on the head. It is obvious that your frustration is driven by the fact you cannot rebut what is presented to you biblically. The only way your theology survives is by avoiding all the multiple biblical arguments that posters present that forbid Premil.

keras said:

This shows how little you even bother to understand what I and others here, do actually believe.
I do believe Jesus will Return and then reign on earth for the next 1000 years. Just as Revelation 20 says and other prophesies confirm.
There is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, we never leave the earth.

Are you capable of actually addressing the OP? And of proving your beliefs with scriptures?

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I did in #25, but as is normal, you ducked around. Please address, if you can:

You need to dig deeper into the Word to see what it says on this. It is totally destructive and no one escapes.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-4 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”

We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible! Well the second coming is the end for the wicked, the righteous inherit the new heavens and new earth; not some suppose future thousand years that is polluted by sin, sinners, Satan, death and ongoing corruption. The appearing of Christ spells the end for all unrighteousness. Anything that is not glorified is consumed. Peter demonstrates here that when Jesus comes back the heavens, earth and all that is on the earth, and the elements are going to dissolve. His glory and unchallenged reign will be set up on the new renewed earth.

keras said:

Perhaps I didn't say it clear enough; When Jesus Returns, He does not destroy the earth at all, those prophesies relate to the new Earth that happens after the Millennium.
The Return is described in:
Zechariah 14:3....He will come back to the Mt of Olives, Acts 1:11, then fight against the nations....
Matthew 24:30....Return after the time of distress; the Great Tribulation.... cosmic signs, but different to the ones of the Sixth Seal, years before.
Revelation 19:11-21 The Return in glory and He destroys the armies of the AC and chains up Satan.

None of them describe a total destruction of the earth. That idea is quite illogical and unscriptural.
We must take Jesus' saying that the heaven and earth shall pass away.....Matthew 24:35, as a prophecy for after the Millennium, or there is a Bible contradiction with what Jesus said [thru John] in Revelation 21:1-7
The Amil belief of no Millennium creates a scriptural anomaly and none of the prophesies you quote actually say the NHNE comes at Jesus Return.

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Instead of (1) constantly cutting and pasting, and repeatedly voicing your opinions, please address and respond to my post and the various Scripture that negates your position. These above passages are totally climactic. They usher in "the end." They forbid your theory!

You have admitted in the past, you do not read other peoples posts, you just skim them. That obviously shows by your blatant and constant avoidance. Your position requires that to survive.

Also, Amil actually means "no" literal thousand years, as you know. Call me Postmil if you want to be pedantic and have a problem with the term Amil. Postmils and Amils are all Postmil in regard to timing.

keras said: ↑Perhaps I didn't say it clear enough; When Jesus Returns, He does not destroy the earth at all, those prophesies relate to the new Earth that happens after the Millennium.
The Return is described in:.............

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sovereigngrace said: ↑
Instead of (1) constantly cutting and pasting, and repeatedly voicing your opinions, please address and respond to my post and the various Scripture that negates your position. These above passages are totally climactic. They usher in "the end." They forbid your theory!

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keras said:

I do copy my articles like the OP, but posts like #133 are original writing. Your accusation of replying 'cut and paste' is against you as your post #132 is obviously copied. Your 'climatic' prophesies are certainly that, but when do they happen? Revelation 21:1 tells us Jesus does NOT destroy everything at His Return. That idea is illogical and creates a scriptural anomaly.
The Amil belief is wrong and any 'rapture to heaven' is false teaching.

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I believe most Christians agree with that.
Let's take a look at this verse in Luke:

Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee and Thy enemies shall be casting a siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee and pressing Thee every which place.

It is a CITY that is being attacked by the 10 Kings in Revelation, not the whole world and God is allowing it. They are shown burning it in fire:

Revelation 17:
12 And the ten horns which you saw are being ten kings, who any a-Kingdom not yet received, but authority as kings one hour they are receiving/ with the wild beast,
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate and naked, and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating and shall be burning Her in fire

Revelation 18:8 because of this in one day shall be arriving<2240> the blows of Her, death and mourning and famine, and in fire She shall be being burned-down that strong *Lord the God, the One-judging Her

I believe it could be this day. Not sure.

Rev 9:15
So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah
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Tho I haven't gotten around to studying on that particular event in Rev 20:9, those coming against Jerusalem are destroyed by "fire from heaven".
Not sure if that is literal [as in the case of Sodom/Gomorrah] or not. But perhaps there is a link between the Jewish Rebels in 70 ad?

Jesus said this in Luke 12:

Luke 12:49 Fire I came to be casting upon the Land[Israel/Judea?] and any I am willing if already it was kindled.

Revelation 8 shows an angel casting fire on the land.......it is literal or not?

Revelation 8:5 And the Messenger has taken the franckincensor, and He crams-full it out of the Fire of the Altar. And he casts it into the Land and became thunders and sounds and lightnings and quaking

Rev 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the land and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
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In the 1st century, it was Jewish Rebels that battled against Roman occupied Jerusalem [read Josephus and the Jewish/Roman wars]
Of coursse the Roman army wasn't destroyed tho they suffereed massive causualties

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

...................While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children.....the three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts......Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ;

keras said:

Claninja and Sovereigngrace,
You are a classic case of the blind leading the blind.
Typical of those who post on forums, you both have very fixed beliefs and opinions. No one changes easily, but what astounds me is how people remain gripping onto false teachings; theories and doctrines that just do not have any proper Biblical support. I see you two as being as Isaiah 29:9-12 says. You have confused* yourselves by believing ideas that are not Biblical, fanciful notions that are quite incredible and literally impossible.
* The KJV says; 'amazed', the CJB says; 'stupid', the NIV says; 'stupid and amazed', the REB translates it best as 'confused'.
Thankfully, we have Gods promise that after the forthcoming judgment/punishment of the world by fire, He will open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf, to the truth of His plans. Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 42:18-20

Many will be very embarrassed and will bitterly regret their promotion of false ideas.
Why take that risk? James 3:1
Wouldn't it be better to just keep quiet about your beliefs if they aren't clearly stated in the Bible?

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My goodness. Really?

keras said:

I do copy my articles like the OP, but posts like #133 are original writing. Your accusation of replying 'cut and paste' is against you as your post #132 is obviously copied.

Your 'climatic' prophesies are certainly that, but when do they happen? Revelation 21:1 tells us.
Jesus does NOT destroy everything at His Return. That idea is illogical and creates a scriptural anomaly.
The Amil belief is wrong and any 'rapture to heaven' is false teaching.

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I just told you i was copying #25 again because you totally ducked around it. You did it again! That is how Premil survives.

Continually voicing your opposition to Amil without addressing the numerous Scripture that teaches the doctrine from the sacred text only serves to highlight the unscriptural nature of Premil.

No post......o t

keras said:

Amil; do you mean there will be no Millennium?

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(Quote Wikipedia) Many proponents dislike the name "amillennialism" because it emphasizes their differences with premillennialism rather than their beliefs about the millennium. "Amillennial" was actually coined in a pejorative way by those who hold premillennial views. Some proponents also prefer alternate terms such as 'realized millennialism', although these names have achieved only limited acceptance and usage.

keras said:

Claninja and Sovereigngrace,
You are a classic case of the blind leading the blind.

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I'm disappointed to hear you speaking like this Keras.