Works of Law

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Paul is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned up to 6 times, 4 times in Galatians, and maybe 2 times in Romans.
Galatians 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10 Romans 3:27, 9:32

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
==========================================================

Here is what Paul says in Galatians 2 concerning works of law:

(CLV) Ga 2:16
having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall not flesh at all be justified.

But here is what Paul said in Romans 2 concerning law:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Now either Paul can't keep his story straight; or works of law is different than law.

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What is Paul referring to in Galatians 3:10?

Galatians 3

10 For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them.

Deuteronomy 27

15 Cursed be the man who makes a carving or a molten image, an abhorrence to Yahweh, the work of an artificer's hands, and places it in concealment. Then all the people will respond and say:Amen!" 16 Cursed be the one dishonoring his father or his mother. Then all the people shall say:Amen! 17 Cursed be the one moving the boundary marker of his associate. Then all the people will say:Amen! 18 Cursed be the one causing the blind to err on the road. Then all the people will say:Amen! 19 Cursed be the one turning aside the judgment of the sojourner, the orphan or the widow. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 20 Cursed be the one lying with the wife of his father, for he exposes his father's hem. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 21 Cursed be the one lying with any beast. Then all the people will say:Amen! 22 Cursed be the one lying with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 23 Cursed be the one lying with his sister-in-law. Then all the people will say:Amen! 24 Cursed be the one smiting his associate in concealment. Then all the people will say:Amen! 25 Cursed be the one taking a bribe to smite a soul of innocent blood. Then all the people will say:Amen! 26 Cursed be the one who is not performing all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say:Amen!

Certainly he is not saying that Yahshua died so that we are free to take part in all of the wickedness.

HTacianas · Apr 23, 2020

HARK! said:
The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Paul is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 6 times in Galatians, and maybe 2 times in Romans.
Galatians 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10 Romans 3:27, 9:32

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
==========================================================

Here is what Paul says in Galatians 2 concerning works of law:

(CLV) Ga 2:16
having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall not flesh at all be justified.

But here is what Paul said in Romans 2 concerning law:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Now either Paul can't keep his story straight; or works of law is different than law.

==========================================================

What is Paul referring to in Galatians 3:10?

Galatians 3

10 For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them.

Deuteronomy 27

15 Cursed be the man who makes a carving or a molten image, an abhorrence to Yahweh, the work of an artificer's hands, and places it in concealment. Then all the people will respond and say:Amen!" 16 Cursed be the one dishonoring his father or his mother. Then all the people shall say:Amen! 17 Cursed be the one moving the boundary marker of his associate. Then all the people will say:Amen! 18 Cursed be the one causing the blind to err on the road. Then all the people will say:Amen! 19 Cursed be the one turning aside the judgment of the sojourner, the orphan or the widow. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 20 Cursed be the one lying with the wife of his father, for he exposes his father's hem. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 21 Cursed be the one lying with any beast. Then all the people will say:Amen! 22 Cursed be the one lying with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. Then all the people will say:Amen!" 23 Cursed be the one lying with his sister-in-law. Then all the people will say:Amen! 24 Cursed be the one smiting his associate in concealment. Then all the people will say:Amen! 25 Cursed be the one taking a bribe to smite a soul of innocent blood. Then all the people will say:Amen! 26 Cursed be the one who is not performing all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say:Amen!

Certainly he is not saying that Yahshua died so that we are free to take part in all of the wickedness.

"Works of the law" are not the same as keeping the law. To keep the law is generally to abstain from sin and to do good.

Paul gave examples of the "works of the law" in writing to the Colossians:

Col 2:20 - Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Col 2:21 - “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

Those things, "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” have never been part of Christianity.

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

HTacianas said:
"Works of the law" are not the same as keeping the law. To keep the law is generally to abstain from sin and to do good.

Paul gave examples of the "works of the law" in writing to the Colossians:

Col 2:20 - Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Col 2:21 - “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

Those things, "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” have never been part of Christianity.

I have not studied out these aspects of this subject. Would you care to give a little more detail?

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

I got it. You left out the most important verse! Good find!

(CLV) Col 2:22
(which things are all for corruption from use), in accord with the directions and teachings of men?—

expos4ever · Apr 23, 2020

HARK! said:
But here is what Paul said in Romans 2 concerning law:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Now either Paul can't keep his story straight; or works of law is different than law.

Context, context, context.

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

"For" means because - in verse 14, Paul explains what he means in verse 13.

Hark would have you believe that, in verse 13, Paul is saying that doing the works of the Law of Moses justifies (so he can then paint Paul as contradicting himself when he elsewhere denies that anyone can be justified by the Law of Moses).

And if there were no verse 14, Hark would have a case.

But we do have verse 14. And it declares that whatever this "law" that justified people do might be, it is something that Gentiles can do. Plus he makes it clear that when Gentiles do the activities prescribed by this "justifying law", they are not doing the works of the Law of Moses since, of course, Gentiles are not even under the Law of Moses.

Conclusion: these "doers of the Law" who get justified are doing something other than the works of the Law of Moses. What that is will need to wait for another post. But, for the moment, it should be clear that in Romans 2:13 is NOT saying that doing the works of the Law of Moses will justify anyone.

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

expos4ever said:
Hark would have you believe that, in verse 13, Paul is saying that doing the works of the Law of Moses justifies (so he can then paint Paul as contradicting himself when he elsewhere denies that anyone can be justified by the Law of Moses).

Apparently you took this whole thread out of context. It's not about the law of Moses. It's about the Talmud. If you go back and read carefully; you'll see that I'm rejecting the notion that Paul is contradicting himself.

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

expos4ever said:
But we do have verse 14. And it declares that whatever this "law" that justified people do might be, it is something that Gentiles can do. Plus he makes it clear that when Gentiles do the activities prescribed by this "justifying law", they are not doing the works of the Law of Moses since, of course, Gentiles are not even under the Law of Moses.

LOL You haven't established that Moses was doing works of law.

Nobody is under the law; unless they are breaking the law.

"Under the law"

Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

It's found 11 times in his writings.

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

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(CLV) Ro 6:14
For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Which law?

Paul mentions at least 8 of them in this letter:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

I suppose that if sin is lording over you; then you are under The Law of Sin.

(CLV) Ro 6:15
What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!

Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms that we may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."

Surely The Law of Sin doesn't prohibit coveting.

The Law of YHWH does.
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(CLV) 1Co 9:20
And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;

The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.

(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.

(CLV) 1Co 9:22
I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.

Apart from the Judaeans the nations didn't even have the Torah
That said, just a few verses prior in this letter; Paul makes mention of the Torah:

Some misunderstand this passage.Paul was not a lawless crowd pleaser.

(CLV) Ga 1:10
For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ.

Acts 17:22-31 is an example of how Paul would put this behavior into practice.

(CLV) 1Co 9:
9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox.Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? Because of us, for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."

HE'S SAYING THAT THE TORAH WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE OF US?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

==================================================

(CLV) Ga 3:19
What, then, is the law? On behalf of transgressions was it added, until the Seed should come to Whom He has promised, being prescribed through messengers in the hand of a mediator.

What law was added to what? Transgressions of what? Abraham had the law. The penal code for the land of Israel was added. Levitical priesthood was added. After the Seed (Yahshua) came; the Judaeans were exiled from the land, for rejecting YHWH's word in the flesh. The High Priesthood was transferred to Yahshua; as it is written.

(CLV) Ga 3:20
Now there is no Mediator of one. Yet God is One.

(CLV) Ga 3:21
Is the law, then, against the promises of God? May it not be coming to that! For if a law were given that is |able to vivify, really, righteousness were out of law.

YHWH's law is not against grace.

(CLV) Ga 3:22
But the scripture locks up all together under sin,

...because all have sinned.

The Law of Sin

that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Obedience to YHWH's Law is the fruit of faith.

(CLV) Ga 3:23
Now before the coming of faith we were garrisoned under law, being locked together for the faith about to be revealed.

If we actually believe Yahshua; we will follow his example of obedience.

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected
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(CLV) Ga 4:4
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,

(CLV) Ga 4:5
that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.

Reclaiming them from what?

Paul makes it clear that those who are under the law, are those who have broken the law:

(CLV) Ro 1:5
through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
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(CLV) Ga 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?

Paul is asking why you would want to sin, knowing what YHWH's judgements will be.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

How can you break YHWH's laws being led by the spirit?

Let's look at this verse in a little more context.

(CLV) Ga 5:16
Now I am saying, Walk in spirit, and you should under no circumstances be consummating the lust of the flesh.

What is the lust of the flesh?

Here are some examples:

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Yahshua set an example of how for us to behave in a way that is in the Father's will.

(CLV) Ro 8:29
that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.

(CLV) Jn 16:7
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, the consoler will not be coming to you. Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you.

(CLV) Jn 16:8
And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning
righteousness and concerning judging:

(CLV) Jn 16:9
concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Oldmantook · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
What is Paul referring to in Galatians 3:10?

Galatians 3

10 For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them.

To clarify, are you meaning that "works of the law" in this verse references the Talmud?

a-lily-of-peace · Apr 24, 2020

Jeremiah 31:33 / Matthew 23:5-8 / 1 Timothy 1:5-7 / John 14:26

My understanding is that the Talmud is the result of what happens when men try to teach torah and that God promised to put his torah in our hearts and minds, that He is the only true teacher, and it’s possible that Paul is drawing a distinction between the treatment of torah as a simply a checklist of laws to be clarified and reclassified compared to the treatment of torah as instruction, guidance, and wisdom as initially codified into law on tablets of stone but now written on hearts of flesh.

Oldmantook · Apr 24, 2020

HTacianas said:
"Works of the law" are not the same as keeping the law. To keep the law is generally to abstain from sin and to do good.

Paul gave examples of the "works of the law" in writing to the Colossians:

Col 2:20 - Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Col 2:21 - “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

Those things, "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” have never been part of Christianity.

If I recall correctly, those verses refer to Gnosticism. Works of the law that originate with God cannot be the same as "basic principles of the world" in Col 2:16. God's regulations are not the world's regulations. V.21 is a warning against Gnostic teaching that teaches that the spirit is pure but all things in the physical world/physical matter are defiled, thus the Gnostic teaching to not touch, taste, handle. V.22 confirms that these are the commandments and doctrines of men (Gnosticism); not of God.

visionary · Apr 24, 2020

HTacianas said:
"Works of the law" are not the same as keeping the law. To keep the law is generally to abstain from sin and to do good.

Paul gave examples of the "works of the law" in writing to the Colossians:

Col 2:20 - Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Col 2:21 - “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

Those things, "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” have never been part of Christianity.

If Christendom looked into the "do not touch, taste or handle" of what the Lord says with a little more care, our conscience would be more sensitive to the Lord's leading on the matter.

Mr. M · Apr 24, 2020

Exodus 23:4 If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again. 5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden, and you would refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it.
The Torah here does not say 'your neighbor', it says 'your enemy'. Yahshua taught:
Love Your Enemies Matthew 5
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Works of the Law are to ask questions pertaining the Law.
What if? I was late for a meeting, I could not stop and help, it wasn't because he was my enemy, promise. We end up with a codification of legal interpretations that ease man's conscience toward fulfilling the righteous requirements of the Law.
If you are out today driving your car and you see someone broken down on the side of the road and you recognize them as someone you despise, do you laugh and think, the @#$%^ deserves it! Or do you stop and help to prove that you are a faithful servant, not because you care about the person, you care about who you serve, and you do as unto Him.
So the question is: do you need Torah to direct you here. Did you even know Exodus 23:4 & 5?
If you are walking (driving?) in the Spirit, your conscience has to convict you to do right by the Lord, not your enemy. You won't necessarily like them any better, they may even mock you and say, "I know you don't like me and you are just trying to be all holier than thou", good for you. But your conscience is clear, and maybe you change that person's heart in the process. That is the righteous requirements of the Law. You don't have to be "under Law", you have to be "in Christ", which is a conscience open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Look up the word conscience in the scriptures. Something like 32 times in the New Testament. Not quite a thing in the Old. It is certainly implied, but you won't find the word. At least not in English. I would suspect that there is a Hebrew word that embraces the idea. Hebrew scholars??

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

Oldmantook said:
To clarify, are you meaning that "works of the law" in this verse references the Talmud?

That is is how it would seem. Paul uses some very interesting labels for different aspects of law. This one doesn't seem to fit the Torah, but the label does seem to fit the Talmud.

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
Jeremiah 31:33 / Matthew 23:5-8 / 1 Timothy 1:5-7 / John 14:26

My understanding is that the Talmud is the result of what happens when men try to teach torah and that God promised to put his torah in our hearts and minds, that He is the only true teacher, and it’s possible that Paul is drawing a distinction between the treatment of torah as a simply a checklist of laws to be clarified and reclassified compared to the treatment of torah as instruction, guidance, and wisdom as initially codified into law on tablets of stone but now written on hearts of flesh.

The Talmud is commentary on the Torah, some of it valuable, some of it damaging. The problem arises when people treat the Talmud (words of man) as Torah (Law of YHWH).

BobRyan · Apr 24, 2020

"works of the law" is a phrase in Paul's writing that are almost always negative - and imply "apart from faith" -- so then a focus on law without first being born-again justified.. .as if Christ is not needed and sinful man could ever possibly not sin (sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4) without the Gospel, without Christ.

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Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

Dkh587 · Apr 24, 2020

We need to understand the historical context of the battle between righteousness through faith(and obedience) in Messiah, versus righteousness through conversion & adherence to manmade laws and traditions(Judaism - religion of Pharisees)

Judaism/Pharisee religion is self righteousness

Romans 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

we ALL know that the Israelites(most of them) did not obey God’s law

the Israelites stumbled because they sought righteousness through their own laws and commandments and traditions, and not through God’s way of righteousness, which is faith expressed through obedience to His laws, statutes and commandments

Mr. M · Apr 24, 2020

HARK! said:
The Talmud is commentary on the Torah, some of it valuable, some of it damaging. The problem arises when people treat the Talmud (words of man) as Torah (Law of YHWH).

Colossians 2:14. erasing the handwriting of the decrees(dogma) against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross.
the handwriting=Talmud?

HARK! · Apr 24, 2020

Oldmantook said:
If I recall correctly, those verses refer to Gnosticism. Works of the law that originate with God cannot be the same as "basic principles of the world" in Col 2:16. God's regulations are not the world's regulations. V.21 is a warning against Gnostic teaching that teaches that the spirit is pure but all things in the physical world/physical matter are defiled, thus the Gnostic teaching to not touch, taste, handle. V.22 confirms that these are the commandments and doctrines of men (Gnosticism); not of God.

What does v 21 come from? Do we have any other references?

Mr. M · Apr 24, 2020

Dkh587 said:
God’s way of righteousness, which is faith expressed through obedience to His laws, statutes and commandments

Requires the convictions of conscience by the Holy Spirit.
John 16:7-11. CLV. 7 But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, the consoler will not be coming to you." 8 Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you. And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judging:" 9 concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;" 10 yet concerning righteousness, seeing that I am going away to My Father, and no longer are you beholding Me;" 11 yet concerning judging, seeing that the Chief of this world has been judged."

Dkh587 · Apr 24, 2020

Romans 9:31-32

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Why?

Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Think about it: God pleaded with the Israelites to trust him, and obey His laws, statutes and commandments, yet by common Christian logic, they did not attain righteousness because they sought righteousness through obeying Him?

Works of Law

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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