The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

1. Does the Lord speak things that are without meaning or that are without purpose? Any true child of God will answer faithfully that the Lord Speaks all things with purpose, and that purpose is made clear through comparing scripture with Scripture letting the word of God Interpret the word of God(1 Cor 2:13, 2 Tim 2:15) doing so by the Spirit of God(1 Cor 2:10-13) . That we must live by every word spoken by the Lord(Mt 4:4) considering each piece no matter how small or seemingly inconsequential knowing that the Lord spoke each word for a reason.

_____________________________________________________________________________

1. As a First Point we need examine the difference between the Lake of Fire and Hell, there is some confusion amongst Christians these days who mistakenly believe that they are one and the same place. This matter can quickly be cleared up by looking at the greek definition of Hell and a couple verses from the bible
   
   
2. The First use of Hell we will look at is the one that causes the most confusion and that word is Gehenna(strongs 1067) this word has possibly three different meanings(depending on which version of the Strongs you are using) and they are:” Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil. Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment -- hell. “ So looking at the definition of the word we find that it can mean: A place underneath the earth, a place that was once outside of Jerusalem, or the final place of torment. In the NT we only ever see it used as the Last definition which is the Final place of torment or in other words the Lake of fire.
   
   
3. The second use of Hell we see in Scripture(NT) is Hades(Strongs 86) which refers to the Grave/Abode in Hell the definition is: “grave, hell. From a (as negative particle) and eido; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls -- grave, hell.” When hades is used in each instance we find that it is never a place of torment but rather the Abode of those who have died in the grave/the lower parts of the earth(Ephesians 4:9-10; 1 Peter 3:18-19;Daniel 12:2) .
   

Now the easiest way to show the division between the final place of Torment and Hell is to quote Scripture(Revelation 20:14), death and hell are both cast INTO the lake of Fire showing clearly that they are two separate places and not one and the same place. Here are some other Greek and Hebrews words used in the Bible whose definitions and usage shows that Hell is the Grave/the Abode of Departed Souls and Not the final place of Torment:Sheol 7585, 5020. tartaro, Paradeisos 3857, 7845. Shachath.


The next question we will answer is where is Hell located and where is the Lake of fire. Hell is said to be the grave or pit into which those who are dead go(Acts 2:27; Psalm 16:10) and exists for an abode of the Dead until judgment when they will be given up(Daniel 12:1-2). Looking at the Lake of fire we are never told it’s exact location, what we are told is that it was prepared or set up for the Angels and Lucifer(Matt 25:41) that it exists while this heavens and earth still stand(Revelation 19:20) and that it will exist after the Lord’s return with fire(Revelation 20:9-10) .

_____________________________________________________________________
2. The next Point that needs to be looked at, is actually three separate events all occurring at almost the same time. First In scripture we find the Lord saying that he will return with fire(Isaiah 2:19-21; Isaiah 26:21; Isaiah 66:15-17; Hosea 10:8; Joel 2:10-11,31; Micah 1:3-4; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; Zeph 2:2; Zeph 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9) that he will pour it down upon the wicked(Revelation 20:9) dissolve them and wipe them off the face of this earth(Ps 21:9-10; Psalm 37:9-11,20,22,28-29,34-36,38; Revelation 20:9) leaving nothing behind on this earth(Psalm 37:10) . Second we see the Lord opening up the books to judge all men who now stand before the throne(2 Cor 5:10; Matt 12:36-37; matt 25:31-32; Romans 14:10,12; Revelation 20:12-13). Third we see these men being cast into the Lake of fire once they are not found in the book of life(Matt 3:10, 7:19, 18:8-9; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 3:9; John 15:6; Revelation 14:9-11 Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10-15) . When we look at these events one after the other we notice a key difference between the first and third event. That difference is the fire in the first event comes down upon the wicked while they are upon this earth(Revelation 20:9) but in the third we see the wicked being CAST INTO the fire(Revelation 20:10-15) rather than the fire coming down to them. A key dividing point between the first and third event is that we only see the books being opened and all men being judged AFTER fire has already consumed the earth(Revelation 20:11) .What does this mean then? This shows that there are different purposes for each devouring flame:

1. The Purpose of the first flame is to destroy this heavens and earth, along with all flesh
   
   
2. The Purpose of the Last flame is to torment the wicked in the place of final punishment
   

_________________________________________________________________________
3. Now how long is this final punishment going to last? And what does it entail? These are the next questions that need to be answered. We are told that the final punishment for the wicked will be everlasting(Matt 25:46) that it will not end by the command of the Lord . This punishment is said to be in an everlasting fire(Matt 25:41) a fire which the Lord has said will never be put out or extinguished(Mark 9:43-48). This final punishment is said to torment the wicked so greatly that they will be in constant anguish and misery(Matt 8:12; Matt 13:42-50; Matt 24:51; Matt 25:30;Luke 13:26-28) this torment is also said to be forever and ever(Revelation 20:10, 14:10-11). This torment in the Lake of fire is said to be an everlasting destruction(2 Thess 1:9) the destruction is said to be a prolonged form(3639 oltheros-From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction) and fits in with the description of eternal torment in the Lake of fire as they are constantly being destroyed/consumed by fire but never having any rest(Revelation 20:10).


An additional aspect to consider:
Everlasting fire mentioned in Scirpture.
Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


On the surface these two passages seem to speak of the same fire, but there is a difference between the two. Which is, simply put, aiónios has two definitions depending on if it is beng used past or future tense

Greek 166. aiónios
eternal, forever, everlasting.
From aion; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

The eternal fire (Greek 166) talked about in Jude is referring to a time already past, since the age in which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire has long since gone.

Matt 25:41is referring to the Future everlasting fire, eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began)). We know it is talking about this future fire since it says it takes place after Christ destroys the Heavens and Earth with fire.

Another distinction between the two fires is that the flame that went down to sodom and gomorrah was never foretold to stand forever without being put out, but the fire prepared for the future punishment of the wicked is said to never be quenched(Mark 9:48). So it can clearly be seen that the fire that the wicked are cast into at the end will never cease to burn, but the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah did indeed burn out.

_____________________________________________________________________
4. What is the meaning of forever? And what is the difference between “forever” and “forever and ever”? Forever in both greek and Hebrew can mean several different things. To show this we look at the Hebrew then the greek words used in the bible translated as forever: 5769 Olam; 5957 alam; 5331 Netsach; 5703 ad; 166 aionios; 165 aion; dienekes 1336

If you do not own a strong's concordance go to biblehub.com and there is a free concordance for you to check the definitions out on. After looking at the definitions we find that in not every case does forever mean perpetuity or eternity but rather only in certain situations does it mean eternity, since in both greek and hebrew a words definition comes from the context of the sentence it is being used in.


The difference between forever and forever and ever is that while forever can mean many different things(time past, antiquity, an age, etc) forever and ever will always mean eternity, without end, perpetual, and this is shown in every instance it is used in scripture(Exodus 15:18; 1 Chronicles 16:36; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Ps 9:5; Ps 10:16; Ps 21:4; Ps 45:6; Ps 45:17; 48:14; Ps 52:8; Ps 92:7; Ps 111:8; Ps 119:44; Ps 145:1,2,21; Ps 148:6; Isa 30:8; Dan 2:20; Dan 7:18; Dan 12:3; Micah 4:5; Gal 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; 1 Pet 4:11; 1 Pet 5:11; Rev 1:6; REv 4:9,10; Rev 5:13,14; Rev 7:12;Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 14:11; Rev 15:7; REV 19:3; Rev 20:10; Rev 22:5). So then when the Lord tells us that torment will last forever and ever it means without end(Revelation 20:10) .

_____________________________________________________________________
5. What is Death? Well it is clear to all men even those of a Natural mind that Death is what follows after life in this body has ceased, but to know what Death is not does not give a full account of what death actually is. To know what death is in its fullest sense we must consult the only authority we have on this matter, the word of God. When looking at the word of God we find that there are two types of death, the first is said to be sleep(Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53; John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40; John 11:11-14,23-26; Acts 2:24-31; Acts 7:60, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Peter 3:18-19; Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 14:13; 1 Kings 2:10; 1 Kings 11:43; 1 Kings 14:20 Job 7:21, Job 14:10-14, Psalms 13:3; Psalm 16:10, Isaiah 26:19-21; Daniel 12:2) this sleep is said to take place in the Lower parts of the earth to which Christ descended at his death(Eph 4:9-10) first to paradise where the Thief on the Cross also went when he died(Luke 23:43-Paradesisos-3857 paradise.

Of Oriental origin (compare pardec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.- Thayers greek- 3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f. But some (e. g. Dillmann (as below, p. 379)) understand that passage of the heavenly paradise), then to the rest of the souls in prison to preach to them(1 Peter 3:18-19) we are also told that the fallen angels have a place in the lowest part of Sheol(tartarus- 5020) where they are held in chains of darkness until the day of judgement(Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4). This sleep is in hell occurs after the Body has perished and returned to dust(Ecclesiastes 12:7; Genesis 3:19) and the breath of life has returned to the Lord(Psalm 104:29; Ecc 12:7) after the Body and breath have departed it is said that the man sleeps(Job 3:11-17; Job 14:12; Matt 9:24) in the grave/hell(Daniel 12:2;Revelation 6:9-11)). Now the second type of death that we find is said to be Torment(Revelation 20:10; Revelation 14:11) in the Lake of fire(Revelation 20:10; Revelation 14:11) this occurs after all flesh is destroyed at Christ’s return(Revelation 20:9) and it is also a condition of the Soul after the flesh has been destroyed(Revelation 20:9). We find then in Both the First and Second death the same themes

1. The body is destroyed/perishes
2. The Soul is sent/departs to a place prepared for it by God
3. It is put into a state of being, the first state is sleep, the second state is Torment Both are called/said to be Death
   

Now what we find then when looking to the word of God for our answers is that death is not the absence of being but rather a condition of the soul, the state of the soul in either sheol or the Lake of fire.

______________________________________________________________________
5. Are Body and Soul the same? We are told many places in God’s word that Body and Soul are seperate Here are several of those places.

Places‌ ‌where‌ ‌it‌ ‌says‌ ‌Body,‌ ‌soul,‌ ‌spirit‌ ‌
Body,‌ ‌soul,‌ ‌spirit:‌ ‌1‌ ‌Thess‌ ‌5:23‌ ‌
Body,‌ ‌Soul:Mt‌ ‌10:28;‌ ‌Isa‌ ‌10:18‌ ‌
Body,‌ ‌Spirit:1‌ ‌Cor‌ ‌5:3,‌ ‌6:20;‌ ‌Eph‌ ‌4:4;‌ ‌Rom‌ ‌8:10,‌ ‌13;‌ ‌James‌ ‌2:l‌ ‌
Soul,‌ ‌Spirit:Heb‌ ‌4:12;‌ ‌1‌ ‌Cor‌ ‌15:45‌


Lev 17:11,14, blood is the life of all flesh. Oxygen(brought by the breath of life) is the component needed for the blood to live and flow throughout the body. It is blood and oxygen that make up the two main components for bodily life. These are the same things every living creature possess today, blood and breath. Without one the other is useless. Does this mean every animal today is a living soul as we are(it should be noted that animals also have conscious thought)? If they are the same can animals be granted eternal life or eternal damnation? Why or why not? Or is there something more to our nature?

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1. The body was formed from dust and breath was put into it.
   
   
2. Then man became a living soul. It was not the body that became a living soul(being combined with the breath) it was man who became a living soul within the body. It is not something seen or tangible it is simply the essence of man’s being, no man has power to touch the soul(Matt 10:28)
   

1 Timothy 6:13-16 God alone hath immortality.
Strong’s concordance Greek 110 Athanasia
immortality.
From a compound of a (as a negative particle) and thanatos; deathlessness -- immortality.


Thayer’s greek lexicon
1 timothy 6:16 where God is described as ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν, because he possesses it essentially


The Lord alone is truly immortal, he alone hath immortality because he was neither created(Revelation 1:8; Revelation 22:13) nor can he be destroyed( 2 Chronicles 20:6 1 timothy 1:17). While the Lord was killed in the flesh it was only because he allowed it to happen(John 10:18) and it was not spiritual death, only physical.

1 Peter 3:18-19
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


While we humans were both created(genesis 2:7) and can be destroyed(Matt 10:28). True immortality is possessed essentially(meaning it is inherent immortality and not given) as God’s immortality is. None but God can ever claim to have always been or claim to never have been created. The soul is eternal but it is both created(genesis 2:7) and can be destroyed if God wishes it to be(Matt 10:28) distinguishing it from the true immortality which God possesses/is.

The body is composed of two things that give it life, blood and breath. The body/blood returns to the dust of the earth(Genesis 3:19) and the breath returns to God(Ecclesiastes 12:7). It is the body and blood that dies without the spirit/breath of life(james 2:26). The living soul that was created(which is neither body/blood or breath) does not turn into dust neither does it go to the Lord. Instead it sleeps in sheol (Revelation 6:9-11; Daniel 12:2). So when the breath leaves the body it is a bodily death(first death Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10) and not a spiritual one(second death Revelation 20:14-15).


This body is always spoken of as a house, tabernacle, vessel or clothing that we are in and not something that we(2 Cor 4; 2 Cor 5;1 Cor 15; Phil 3).


_________________________________________________________________
6. God is love(1 John 4:8,16) and he wants all men everywhere to repent and accept everlasting life with him(2 Peter 3:9) . With Salvation the Lord offers everyone his mercy(Psalms 86:5) if they only love him and keep his commandments( Exodus 20:6; Deut 5:10; Deut 7:9,12; 1 Chron 17:13; 2 Chron 6:14; Psalm 86:5; Proverbs 28:13; Isaiah 55:7; Luke 1:50; Galatians 6:16). The Mercy of the Lord is freely given, for he is rich in mercy(ephesians 2:4-5) that he wants to give us. We are told time and time again that mercy is given to those who seek it(Prov 28:13; 1 Cor 7:25; 2 Cor 4:1; 1 Tim 1:13-16; Hebrews 4:16; 1 Peter 2:10) to those who accept the Lord and to those who keep his commandments showing their love for him(Mt 5:7; Mt 6:14; Mt 9:13; Lk 6:36; Heb 4:16; James 2:13; Titus 3:5 . It is clear God greatly desires that all men should lay hold to the mercy he offers, that the mercy given/shown may rejoice against Judgement, for we receive mercy through Christ that the condemnation we deserve for our sins is blotted out by God’s Love, grace, and the Blood of Christ. If we follow God’s commands(out of faith) then that mercy will overcome and rejoice against the judgement removed from us by Christ’s love, sacrifice and advocacy for us in heaven(James 2:13).


Through this knowledge we find that the mercy that he offers must be accepted to be obtained , knowing this then it stands that if a person refuse the Lord then he also refuse the mercy of the Lord freely offered and the judgement shown those who refuse him will then be without mercy as the merciful receive mercy(Matt 5:7) but those who show no mercy receive no mercy(James 2:13) . The Lord has thus spoken that to whom he wills, he will have mercy and to whom he will have compassion he will have compassion(Rom 9:15-18; Exodus 33:19; Matt 5:7-James 2:13).

There is much more biblical proof to support the doctrine of eternal torment but hopefully this short study has helped to show that the wicked will indeed burn for eternity in the Lake of fire as the Lord has said.

God bless and Guide you

FineLinen said:

Search "eternal torment"

Your search has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

Search "everlasting punishment"

Your search has yielded one result (Matt.25:46)

Click to expand...

Revelation 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

FineLinen said:

The Lake of Theos radiates with theion and theioo.

When you place aidios before basanismos you venture into what cannot be substantiated.

The Lord God of Glory ALONE is aidios!

Click to expand...

2532 [e]
10 kai
10 καὶ
10 And
10 Conj
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS
1228 [e]
diabolos
διάβολος ,
devil
Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the [one]
Art-NMS
4105 [e]
planōn
πλανῶν
deceiving
V-PPA-NMS
846 [e]
autous
αὐτοὺς ,
them
PPro-AM3P
906 [e]
eblēthē
ἐβλήθη
was cast
V-AIP-3S
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
into
Prep
3588 [e]
tēn
τὴν
the
Art-AFS
3041 [e]
limnēn
λίμνην
lake
N-AFS
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
-
Art-GNS
4442 [e]
pyros
πυρὸς
of fire
N-GNS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
2303 [e]
theiou
θείου ,
of sulfur
N-GNS
3699 [e]
hopou
ὅπου
where [are]
Adv
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
also
Conj
3588 [e]
to
τὸ
the
Art-NNS
2342 [e]
thērion
θηρίον
beast
N-NNS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS
5578 [e]
pseudoprophētēs
ψευδοπροφήτης ;
false prophet
N-NMS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
928 [e]
basanisthēsontai
βασανισθήσονται
they will be tormented
V-FIP-3P
2250 [e]
hēmeras
ἡμέρας
day
N-GFS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3571 [e]
nyktos
νυκτὸς
night
N-GFS
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
to
Prep
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
the
Art-AMP
165 [e]
aiōnas
αἰῶνας
ages
N-AMP
3588 [e]
tōn
τῶν
of the
Art-GMP
165 [e]
aiōnōn
αἰώνων .
ages
N-GMP

FineLinen said:

The Lake of Theos radiates with theion and theioo.

When you place aidios before basanismos you venture into what cannot be substantiated.

The Lord God of Glory ALONE is aidios!

Click to expand...

They are tormented day and night forever and ever. That is what is written plain and simple, without any controversy.

FineLinen said:

For ever & ever does NOT constitute aidios! For ever & ever is age related (aka aion to aion.)

We need not remain in darkness, for fortunately the Word of God tells us precisely what this Greek word means.

Too few have taken the time or energy to consider the real meaning of AION. It is the word from which we get our English word eon. Eon, according to Webster, means “a long period of TIME.”

Many attempts have been made to prove that eons are eternal. But this is more than a grave error, it is the height of stupidity, for the divine Author of the blessed Bible has not Himself used them in that way.

AION nowhere means eternal! Its simple meaning is an age.

In its plural form it means ages. This fact can be unquestionably and incontrovertibly demonstrated from numerous New Testament passages. A glance at any Greek concordance proves that the noun AION, or AGE, is not the synonym of eternity. A study of each case would make a library; so, leaving this task to the reader, we must content ourselves with adducing a few specimens to demonstrate the fact. It is usage that determines meanings - THEIR usage, not ours; the meanings that the holy prophets and apostles gave to their words rather than those that our English translators may try to give. Let me illustrate.

The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending.

In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, “I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever” (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights! When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, “… His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever” (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn’t be longer than his life span. Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, “I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever” (I Kings. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, “I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever” (I Kings. 9:3). But Solomon’s temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God’s mind to dwell there for ever!

-J. Preston Eby (Savior of the World Series

Click to expand...

4. What is the meaning of forever? And what is the difference between “forever” and “forever and ever”? Forever in both greek and Hebrew can mean several different things. To show this we look at the Hebrew then the greek words used in the bible translated as forever: 5769 Olam; 5957 alam; 5331 Netsach; 5703 ad; 166 aionios; 165 aion; dienekes 1336

If you do not own a strong's concordance go to biblehub.com and there is a free concordance for you to check the definitions out on. After looking at the definitions we find that in not every case does forever mean perpetuity or eternity but rather only in certain situations does it mean eternity, since in both greek and hebrew a words definition comes from the context of the sentence it is being used in.


The difference between forever and forever and ever is that while forever can mean many different things(time past, antiquity, an age, etc) forever and ever will always mean eternity, without end, perpetual, and this is shown in every instance it is used in scripture(Exodus 15:18; 1 Chronicles 16:36; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Ps 9:5; Ps 10:16; Ps 21:4; Ps 45:6; Ps 45:17; 48:14; Ps 52:8; Ps 92:7; Ps 111:8; Ps 119:44; Ps 145:1,2,21; Ps 148:6; Isa 30:8; Dan 2:20; Dan 7:18; Dan 12:3; Micah 4:5; Gal 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; 1 Pet 4:11; 1 Pet 5:11; Rev 1:6; REv 4:9,10; Rev 5:13,14; Rev 7:12;Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 14:11; Rev 15:7; REV 19:3; Rev 20:10; Rev 22:5). So then when the Lord tells us that torment will last forever and ever it means without end(Revelation 20:10) .

The clear distintion between the eternal forever and ever(used together) and the possibly eternal but often a period of time forever(singular use).
Daniel 7:18
18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

FineLinen said:

If you will examine this more fully you will find that the forever's in koine are all aion related. in short, ages, not aidios, aion.

The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Click to expand...

I have examine it thorougly brother and yet still every place in the bible where it says forever and ever it is always in reference to something God has said will not end. So until you can find and show where in the bible that something is said to last forever and ever but is then stated to only be for a time, you have no legs to stand on in this matter brother.

Forever and ever
Every instance it is referring to something that is everlasting. Something eternal.
(Exodus 15:18; 1 Chronicles 16:36; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Ps 9:5; Ps 10:16; Ps 21:4; Ps 45:6; Ps 45:17; 48:14; Ps 52:8; Ps 92:7; Ps 111:8; Ps 119:44; Ps 145:1,2,21; Ps 148:6; Isa 30:8; Dan 2:20; Dan 7:18; Dan 12:3; Micah 4:5; Gal 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; 1 Pet 4:11; 1 Pet 5:11; Rev 1:6; REv 4:9,10; Rev 5:13,14; Rev 7:12;Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 14:11; Rev 15:7; REV 19:3; Rev 20:10; Rev 22:5)

God bless

FineLinen said:

Every aion ends. The forever's are ALL aion's.

Take your time to consider the scope as you wait before Him.

Click to expand...

Well brother you must consider that in your view that God is not immortal then, his glory is not without end, neither his honor or judgment any of the things said to be forever, or even forever and ever, in reference to God. Your understanding changes God's word, I suggest brother that you look to the scriptures and read what they have to say.

God bless and Guide you brother.

DNB said:

Hello SM, ...well, I'm not a universalist, which I'd be inclined to label you if I've understood the sentiments of your last reply? In my opinion, attempting to speak as scripturally objective and discerning as possible, that the only two soteriological positions are redemption and rejection. And as far as rejection is concerned, the only two options that i might consider are annihilation or eternal damnation. In short, I don't believe that annihilation is a viable option, and thus, weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the flame and the worm dieth not, appears to be inevitable.
Plus, nor do I accept theories of man's fallen nature. All men are created in the image of God, and that image has never been lost, or constitutionally deprecated.

But, as far as who are the saved, and who are the lost goes, outside of the five solas, that remains a mystery to me as to what types of exception that there may be (children, remote civilizations, false indoctrination, ...?). So, as to those who you claim are hell-bound, I don't know about their salvific standing with God. But, i will say, that if for whatever reason they do not qualify for the Kingdom, then yes, eternal ostracization awaits them. For, when the books are opened, we will see what insidious evils lie within all of us, ...and I anticipate that there will be many surprises on that day.

In short, Biblically speaking, the perceived universalist passages do not outweigh the eternally lost principle's proof-texts.

Click to expand...

I also do not accept universalism -- neither do I accept infinite torture as the price to be never-fully-paid for finite sin by finite beings.

Rather Matthew 10:28 in the fires and torments of the literal hell that is "lake of fire" in Rev 20 we have "both body and soul destroyed" Matt 10:28 after some period of torment and suffering.

note: That's is not a quote of "me" or of my "magisterium" it is a quote of Matthew 10:28

So then ... not universalism.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

1. Does the Lord speak things that are without meaning or that are without purpose? Any true child of God will answer faithfully that the Lord Speaks all things with purpose, and that purpose is made clear through comparing scripture with Scripture letting the word of God Interpret the word of God(1 Cor 2:13, 2 Tim 2:15) doing so by the Spirit of God(1 Cor 2:10-13) . That we must live by every word spoken by the Lord(Mt 4:4) considering each piece no matter how small or seemingly inconsequential knowing that the Lord spoke each word for a reason.

_____________________________________________________________________________

1. As a First Point we need examine the difference between the Lake of Fire and Hell, there is some confusion amongst Christians these days who mistakenly believe that they are one and the same place. This matter can quickly be cleared up by looking at the greek definition of Hell and a couple verses from the bible
2. The First use of Hell we will look at is the one that causes the most confusion and that word is Gehenna(strongs 1067) this word has possibly three different meanings(depending on which version of the Strongs you are using) and they are:” Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil. Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment -- hell. “ So looking at the definition of the word we find that it can mean: A place underneath the earth, a place that was once outside of Jerusalem, or the final place of torment. In the NT we only ever see it used as the Last definition which is the Final place of torment or in other words the Lake of fire.
3. The second use of Hell we see in Scripture(NT) is Hades(Strongs 86) which refers to the Grave/Abode in Hell the definition is: “grave, hell. From a (as negative particle) and eido; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls -- grave, hell.” When hades is used in each instance we find that it is never a place of torment but rather the Abode of those who have died in the grave/the lower parts of the earth(Ephesians 4:9-10; 1 Peter 3:18-19;Daniel 12:2) .

Now the easiest way to show the division between the final place of Torment and Hell is to quote Scripture(Revelation 20:14), death and hell are both cast INTO the lake of Fire showing clearly that they are two separate places and not one and the same place. Here are some other Greek and Hebrews words used in the Bible whose definitions and usage shows that Hell is the Grave/the Abode of Departed Souls and Not the final place of Torment:Sheol 7585, 5020. tartaro, Paradeisos 3857, 7845. Shachath.


The next question we will answer is where is Hell located and where is the Lake of fire. Hell is said to be the grave or pit into which those who are dead go(Acts 2:27; Psalm 16:10) and exists for an abode of the Dead until judgment when they will be given up(Daniel 12:1-2). Looking at the Lake of fire we are never told it’s exact location, what we are told is that it was prepared or set up for the Angels and Lucifer(Matt 25:41) that it exists while this heavens and earth still stand(Revelation 19:20) and that it will exist after the Lord’s return with fire(Revelation 20:9-10) .

_____________________________________________________________________
2. The next Point that needs to be looked at, is actually three separate events all occurring at almost the same time. First In scripture we find the Lord saying that he will return with fire(Isaiah 2:19-21; Isaiah 26:21; Isaiah 66:15-17; Hosea 10:8; Joel 2:10-11,31; Micah 1:3-4; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; Zeph 2:2; Zeph 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9) that he will pour it down upon the wicked(Revelation 20:9) dissolve them and wipe them off the face of this earth(Ps 21:9-10; Psalm 37:9-11,20,22,28-29,34-36,38; Revelation 20:9) leaving nothing behind on this earth(Psalm 37:10) . Second we see the Lord opening up the books to judge all men who now stand before the throne(2 Cor 5:10; Matt 12:36-37; matt 25:31-32; Romans 14:10,12; Revelation 20:12-13). Third we see these men being cast into the Lake of fire once they are not found in the book of life(Matt 3:10, 7:19, 18:8-9; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 3:9; John 15:6; Revelation 14:9-11 Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10-15) . When we look at these events one after the other we notice a key difference between the first and third event. That difference is the fire in the first event comes down upon the wicked while they are upon this earth(Revelation 20:9) but in the third we see the wicked being CAST INTO the fire(Revelation 20:10-15) rather than the fire coming down to them. A key dividing point between the first and third event is that we only see the books being opened and all men being judged AFTER fire has already consumed the earth(Revelation 20:11) .What does this mean then? This shows that there are different purposes for each devouring flame:

1. The Purpose of the first flame is to destroy this heavens and earth, along with all flesh
2. The Purpose of the Last flame is to torment the wicked in the place of final punishment

_________________________________________________________________________
3. Now how long is this final punishment going to last? And what does it entail? These are the next questions that need to be answered. We are told that the final punishment for the wicked will be everlasting(Matt 25:46) that it will not end by the command of the Lord . This punishment is said to be in an everlasting fire(Matt 25:41) a fire which the Lord has said will never be put out or extinguished(Mark 9:43-48). This final punishment is said to torment the wicked so greatly that they will be in constant anguish and misery(Matt 8:12; Matt 13:42-50; Matt 24:51; Matt 25:30;Luke 13:26-28) this torment is also said to be forever and ever(Revelation 20:10, 14:10-11). This torment in the Lake of fire is said to be an everlasting destruction(2 Thess 1:9) the destruction is said to be a prolonged form(3639 oltheros-From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction) and fits in with the description of eternal torment in the Lake of fire as they are constantly being destroyed/consumed by fire but never having any rest(Revelation 20:10).


An additional aspect to consider:
Everlasting fire mentioned in Scirpture.
Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


On the surface these two passages seem to speak of the same fire, but there is a difference between the two. Which is, simply put, aiónios has two definitions depending on if it is beng used past or future tense

Greek 166. aiónios
eternal, forever, everlasting.
From aion; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

The eternal fire (Greek 166) talked about in Jude is referring to a time already past, since the age in which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire has long since gone.

Matt 25:41is referring to the Future everlasting fire, eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began)). We know it is talking about this future fire since it says it takes place after Christ destroys the Heavens and Earth with fire.

Another distinction between the two fires is that the flame that went down to sodom and gomorrah was never foretold to stand forever without being put out, but the fire prepared for the future punishment of the wicked is said to never be quenched(Mark 9:48). So it can clearly be seen that the fire that the wicked are cast into at the end will never cease to burn, but the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah did indeed burn out.

_____________________________________________________________________
4. What is the meaning of forever? And what is the difference between “forever” and “forever and ever”? Forever in both greek and Hebrew can mean several different things. To show this we look at the Hebrew then the greek words used in the bible translated as forever: 5769 Olam; 5957 alam; 5331 Netsach; 5703 ad; 166 aionios; 165 aion; dienekes 1336

If you do not own a strong's concordance go to biblehub.com and there is a free concordance for you to check the definitions out on. After looking at the definitions we find that in not every case does forever mean perpetuity or eternity but rather only in certain situations does it mean eternity, since in both greek and hebrew a words definition comes from the context of the sentence it is being used in.


The difference between forever and forever and ever is that while forever can mean many different things(time past, antiquity, an age, etc) forever and ever will always mean eternity, without end, perpetual, and this is shown in every instance it is used in scripture(Exodus 15:18; 1 Chronicles 16:36; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Ps 9:5; Ps 10:16; Ps 21:4; Ps 45:6; Ps 45:17; 48:14; Ps 52:8; Ps 92:7; Ps 111:8; Ps 119:44; Ps 145:1,2,21; Ps 148:6; Isa 30:8; Dan 2:20; Dan 7:18; Dan 12:3; Micah 4:5; Gal 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; 1 Pet 4:11; 1 Pet 5:11; Rev 1:6; REv 4:9,10; Rev 5:13,14; Rev 7:12;Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 14:11; Rev 15:7; REV 19:3; Rev 20:10; Rev 22:5). So then when the Lord tells us that torment will last forever and ever it means without end(Revelation 20:10) .

_____________________________________________________________________
5. What is Death? Well it is clear to all men even those of a Natural mind that Death is what follows after life in this body has ceased, but to know what Death is not does not give a full account of what death actually is. To know what death is in its fullest sense we must consult the only authority we have on this matter, the word of God. When looking at the word of God we find that there are two types of death, the first is said to be sleep(Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53; John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40; John 11:11-14,23-26; Acts 2:24-31; Acts 7:60, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Peter 3:18-19; Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 14:13; 1 Kings 2:10; 1 Kings 11:43; 1 Kings 14:20 Job 7:21, Job 14:10-14, Psalms 13:3; Psalm 16:10, Isaiah 26:19-21; Daniel 12:2) this sleep is said to take place in the Lower parts of the earth to which Christ descended at his death(Eph 4:9-10) first to paradise where the Thief on the Cross also went when he died(Luke 23:43-Paradesisos-3857 paradise.

Of Oriental origin (compare pardec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.- Thayers greek- 3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f. But some (e. g. Dillmann (as below, p. 379)) understand that passage of the heavenly paradise), then to the rest of the souls in prison to preach to them(1 Peter 3:18-19) we are also told that the fallen angels have a place in the lowest part of Sheol(tartarus- 5020) where they are held in chains of darkness until the day of judgement(Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4). This sleep is in hell occurs after the Body has perished and returned to dust(Ecclesiastes 12:7; Genesis 3:19) and the breath of life has returned to the Lord(Psalm 104:29; Ecc 12:7) after the Body and breath have departed it is said that the man sleeps(Job 3:11-17; Job 14:12; Matt 9:24) in the grave/hell(Daniel 12:2;Revelation 6:9-11)). Now the second type of death that we find is said to be Torment(Revelation 20:10; Revelation 14:11) in the Lake of fire(Revelation 20:10; Revelation 14:11) this occurs after all flesh is destroyed at Christ’s return(Revelation 20:9) and it is also a condition of the Soul after the flesh has been destroyed(Revelation 20:9). We find then in Both the First and Second death the same themes

1. The body is destroyed/perishes
2. The Soul is sent/departs to a place prepared for it by God
3. It is put into a state of being, the first state is sleep, the second state is Torment Both are called/said to be Death

Now what we find then when looking to the word of God for our answers is that death is not the absence of being but rather a condition of the soul, the state of the soul in either sheol or the Lake of fire.

Click to expand...

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

[Character limit. Continued next post]

[Previous post continued]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
When Jesus taught e.g.,
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Follow on post to the above.
Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
I also have a post in the can showing that archaeological excavations in Jerusalem reveal that the valley of Hinnom was never used as a place for burning trash or bodies.
Excavations in Jerusalem reveal that the valley of Kidron was used as a garbage dump from the "1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE/."