Who Do We Heed; Paul or YHWH?

Minister Monardo said:

Question: Is the Nazarite Vow still valid, or has it been replaced by drawing near to God by the blood of Yahshua?

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Acts 21:23-26.
23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.
[years later, same requirements for Gentiles, not a starting point for a process of being grafted in by learning and keeping more and more of the Torah.]

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.
Not a Gentile thing.

HARK! said:

Exactly. I don't think there is anyone here who can say that he keeps the Torah as Messiah; therefore all here are still in need of the escort.

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That's like a slow climb up babel ...

HARK! said:

Exactly. I don't think there is anyone here who can say that he keeps the Torah as Messiah; therefore all here are still in need of the escort.

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I think the difference is forgiveness of sins. There is no forgiveness of sins under the law, only the penalty. If we had to pay the 'fine' for our sins the church would live in poverty. In fact one could identify a Christian by the rags they wear.

HARK! said:

Is any vow that you make before YHWH valid. Indeed! Do you know the root of a covenant? It starts by chopping an animal into pieces. Do you know where I'm going with this?

It is if you make that vow. making that vow would be a big mistake; as you do not have the means to carry it through.

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ATQ!!
I did not ask if someone should feel obligated to keep a vow that has been made before YHWH. Should they be making one at all. Nazarite or otherwise. I agree, a big mistake!
Jesus Forbids Oaths
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
So would you advise based on this to abstain from making vows, and by faith have boldness to draw near to God by the blood of Yahshua, a better and living way, not by a ritual Law.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always."

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In my opinion what Paul was trying to say with his ministry is that The Old Covenant was a preparation for the coming Messiah. No one is saved by works of the law of Torah. Jesus Christ is Torah manifest. He is the only one who could keep Torah perfectly. Torah only shows the sins and transgression jews did. No one can keep the Torah perfectly except Christ. Christ received a better covenant than Torah.
Hebrews 8:6 KJV "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."
More excellent ministry, Mediator of a better covenant, established upon better promises.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always."

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In my opinion, what Paul was trying to say is that The Old Covenant was a preparation for the coming Messiah. No one is saved by works of the law (Law=Torah).

Galatians 2:16 KJV> Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Jesus Christ is Torah made flesh. No one can keep Torah perfectly except Jesus Christ.

Christ received a more excellent ministry, a Better Covenant, established upon better promises than the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6 KJV > But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The first covenant (Torah) wasn't faultless.
Hebrews 8:7 KJV > For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

God the Father gave us through Christ a more excellent ministry, a better covenant established upon better promises. Since no other covenant is sought, the New Covenant is faultless.
Christians shouldn't "judaise" the New Covenant with observing the Torah, which has faults, but should stick to the New Covenant which is faultless. In my opinion Paul is right.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

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That's a different topic altogether.

Dkh587 said:

Paul and all his congregations kept the Sabbath(Colossians 2:16, for example)

why don’t you?

It’s weird - people who quote Paul 99.9% of the time don’t actually follow Paul’s way of living, nor adhere to his teachings.

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Because I'm not Jewish.

Oscarr said:

For new covenant believers, the Torah is written for our education and not for our direct instruction.

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The challenge, though, is that different people will have different interpretations of what it really means for the Torah to be written on our hearts. There are those who think that this concept basically means that we "memorize" the prescriptions of the Law, or that we somehow "know deep down inside" that we should do the 613 practices that are otherwise specified in the Law of Moses. These people remain curiously silent on whether we should put adulterers to death (as the Law requires) or sacrifice animals in the Temple (which the Law also requires). But perhaps that is a different discussion.

Others, like me, agree with Paul, and with Jesus for that matter: the written code has been retired. So, for us, to have the Law "written on the heart" means that, this side of the Cross, the Holy Spirit leads us in ways that respect the "spirit" of the Law, but we are certainly not supposed to be sacrificing animals or stoning adulterers.

HARK! said:

How so?

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Have you seen the correlation between the 2nd forty and the birthing of a daughter ... which really begins in Genesis with a woman ...

"In English, the Messiah's name is Yahshua."
No, in English the Messiah's name is Jesus. The New Testament which is a better Testament, was written in Greek. Yahshua's name in Greek is Iesous Ἰησοῦς, which was translated into English as Jesus.
Yahshua ישוע is only the Hebrew name of our Savior. It doesn't matter weather you use Yahshua, Iesous. All are good according to the Scriptures.

HARK! said:

Yahshua's disciples seem to say differently:

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

Yahshua seems to say differently:

(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

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You are assuming that these precepts are the prescriptions of the Law of Moses.

Now in the absence of other information, this may be a reasonable assumption. But we do have other information - scads of it as a matter of fact - to the effect that Jesus is not talking about the Law of Moses here. From Paul:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Jesus, too, teaches that the Law, at least in its current form, is coming to an end:

- He declares that He is the place to go for forgiveness (the Law says the Temple is the place).
- Jesus intentionally has contact with people the Law tells Him He should avoid (e.g. menstruating woman)
- Jesus challenges the kosher purity laws.
- Jesus challenges the Sabbath.

....and there are probably more example.