Who Do We Heed; Paul or YHWH?

HARK! said:

Identification of what?



Didn't happen.



What?

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The son that you are ...


Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (a pattern)


‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always."

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The question is the same as the question,

Who do we heed, Jeremiah or YHWH?

God inspired His prophet Jeremiah to tell the house of Israel and the house of Judah that God would make an entirely new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah which would not be according to the covenant He made with the people "when He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt" (the covenant at Sinai), because IT WAS GOD'S MARRIAGE-COVENANT WITH THE SEED OF ABRAHAM and the people had broken that covenant.

THE COVENANT MADE AT SINAI REQUIRED THE "WIFE" TO REMAIN FAITHFUL TO HER VOWS:

Exo 24:7 "And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient."

THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT

Exo 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words."

In terms of the Covenant at Sinai, IF the people were obedient and faithful, they would remain in the land and be blessed, but if they were disobedient, they would be cursed and expelled from the land.

A MARRIAGE COVENANT IS ONLY "EVERLASTING" UNTIL "THE WIFE" HAS BEEN UNFAITHFUL AND BROKEN THE COVENANT

The sin principle in all the sons of Adam would only (and could only) prevent Abraham's genetic seed from being any more capable of remaining 100% obedient and faithful to God and all the commandments in the Law than the rest of the sons of Adam (the Gentile nations). They would be cursed and driven from the land again and again if this covenant was everlasting - but the covenant with its commandments was only everlasting until the "wife" was unfaithful. Once the covenant was broken, it was broken - but God in His mercy promised the house of Israel and the house of Judah a New Covenant:

Jer 31:31-33 "Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, says the LORD:"

"Though I was a husband unto them" is the same as saying God remained faithful - but the wife was unfaithful - therefore the covenant was broken by both the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and when a marriage covenant is broken by an unfaithful wife, there is a divorce.

Therefore God in His mercy promised an entirely New Covenant to the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

Jer 33-34 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

THE BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT (THE NEW ETERNAL COVENANT WHICH HAS REPLACED THE BROKEN COVENANT FOREVER):

Matt 26;27-29 "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of you all of it; For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

SINAI COVENANT UNLIKE THE COVENANT GOD MADE WITH ABRAHAM

The covenant at Siani is unlike the covenant God made with Abraham when He promised Abraham He would be God to Abraham's seed forever - because the Abrahamic Covenant is based upon a promise made by God unilaterally and in His sovereign will, which which was not solocited by Abraham or his descendants who were still to come, nor is the Abrahamic Covenant dependant on any promise of value on the part of the people with respect to obedience to the Law which had also not yet come.

The New Covenant does not replace the eternal election of Abraham and his seed - and as God promised Abraham, Abraham would also become a father of many (Gentile) nations.

The New Covenant DOES however replace the broken covenant - the covenant at Sinai.

SO THEREFORE (WITH REGARD TO WHAT GOD SAID REGARDING THE COVENANT AT SINAI AND THE NEW COVENANT) WHO DO YOU BELIEVE - THE PROPHET JEREMIAH, OR YHWH?

I ask this because it's EXACTLY the same as the question, "Who so you believe - Paul, or YHWH?"

HOW SO?

Jesus is the son of David, the Son of Man, and the last Adam. He represents Adam before God. He obeyed the Law perfectly - and He also took the sins (transgresstion of the Law) upon Himself, and died, and rose again - first for Abraham's genetic seed, and then also for all humanity who believe.

JESUS said that ALL THE LAW AND THE COMMANDMENTS HANG ON THIS:

LOVE ...., AND LOVE ....

Mat 27:35-40 "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Jesus Himself fulfilled the Law perfectly. This is what Jesus meant when He said,

Mat 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." MAN COULD NOT FULFILL IT.

Now let's compare what God said through the prophet Jeremiah with what Jesus said, and with what Paul said:

Paul: Rom 13:8-10 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Jesus: Mat 27:35-40 "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

HOW? HOW DO SINFUL MEN OBEY THE LAW THIS WAY?

Jesus said, John 15:4-5 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can all of you, except all of you abide in me.

I am the vine, all of you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me all of you can do nothing."

Paul: Phil 2:13 "For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Jeremiah: Jer 33-34 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

It's all about God and His Messiah and HIS ability to change His people, those who believe in Him, FROM WITHIN instead of FROM WITHOUT (through their attempts to obey the Law and its commandments which formed the NOW DEFUNCT covenant at Sinai).

The Law itself is good - but because of the sin principle in humans, it is impossible that right-standing or righteousness can be obtained by man through obedience to the commandments contained in the Law - neither Abraham's genetic seed nor the Gentiles.

THIS IS WHAT JESUS MEANT AND WHY HE SAID,

Luke 11:39 "Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do all of you Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness."

Matt 23:25-26 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for all of you make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

You blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."

When Jesus died, shedding His blood of the NEW Covenant, He put an end to the Old Covenant - and this is why Paul said,

Gal 2:16-21 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Rom 3 19-31 "Now we know that what things whatsoever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

"Establish the Law" does not mean, "continue with attempts to be justified or declared righteous by observance of the commandments" It means, "Our sin has proved that the Law is good, but WE are sinful and therefore unable to obey the Laws received at Sinai".

It is JUST as God promised through Jeremiah: The Sinai covenant was BROKEN by the unfaithful "wife", so God would offer them an entirely NEW Covenant WHICH WOULD NOT BE ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT AT SINAI - the covenant He made with them "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt".

And it must be noted that the promise was made to the House of Israel and the house of Judah - but through the rejection of the majority of Abraham's genetic descendants, this salvation was extended to the Gentiles, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (see Gen 17:5, 16; Gen 48:19; Hos 1:6-11; Rom 9:25-26; Rom 11:25).

It is NOT when "the Messiah of the Jews who is not Jesus" comes that the world will receive blessing beyond anything ever known before. It is when the Jews on a national level repent of their rejection of their Messiah, who the Gentiles call Jesus, who HAS come and is coming again, that the world will receive blessing beyond anything ever known before.

This planet earth and God's entire universe is waiting for Judah to repent so that Joseph can forgive him and all his brothers and so that they can be taken by Joseph (Jesus) to dwell with him in the idyllic land of Goshen (the Messianic kingdom). Joseph is in every way the foreshadow of Jesus.

HARK! said:

You believe he meant this literally?

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The law is a reflection of the inward parts based on relationship ... before it is ever a manifestation of the outward parts.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always."

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You miss the point entirely. I don't know too many Christians who think it's OK to steal, lie, murder, slander, covet, commit adultery or give false testimony. Yet many do those things. Knowing God's requirements is not the same as having the power to do them. Why did Paul warn against behaviours that are unacceptable to God? Numbers of reasons, including those who use "grace" as a licence to sin.

If we are walking in the Spirit then we will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. If the law had the power to change people, Lord Jesus died for nothing. If you want to keep the law then you need to be circumcised. Then you have to obey every old testament commandment. Except you cannot. There is not temple. It's been superseded by the Church, the Body of Christ. The law is inscribed on stone. There is no mercy in a stone. There is no grace.

I note that not keeping the sabbath fails to make the list of things that disqualify a person from entering the Kingdom of God. "Let no man be your judge" and that includes food laws. If you conscience tells you not to eat pork products, then don't. If says that you should go to church on Saturday, go then. No one has the right to dictate matters of conscience to another believer. Our fellowship meets daily. We have the bread and wine on Sunday. If someone has to work on a weekend, we leave the rocks where they are.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

It is NOT when "the Messiah of the Jews who is not Jesus" comes that the world will receive blessing beyond anything ever known before. It is when the Jews on a national level repent of their rejection of their Messiah, who the Gentiles call Jesus, who HAS come and is coming again, that the world will receive blessing beyond anything ever known before.

This planet earth and God's entire universe is waiting for Judah to repent so that Joseph can forgive him and all his brothers and so that they can be taken by Joseph (Jesus) to dwell with him in the idyllic land of Goshen (the Messianic kingdom). Joseph is in every way the foreshadow of Jesus.

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That post was great - right up until then.

HARK! said:

The biggest one that jumps right to mind:

"I don't keep the Sabbath. I'm not under the law."

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.. and the law promises blessing and the right to remain in the land when the nation obeys all the commandments (just as "the wife" promised in her vows she would do) - but curses and exile from the land if "the wife" is unfaithful and disobedient.

And the Law proves to us that we are sinners - it proves to us that because of the sin inherent in mankind (all the sons of Adam), the people were unable to obey, and cursed and exiled time after time, and this will reoccur forever.

So which covenant would you prefer? The New Covenant which God promised would not be according to the covenant repeatedly broken by the unfaithful wife, or the covenant at Sinai (the covenant God made with them "in the day He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt"?), or the first covenant?

timothyu said:

If we are putting God's will before our own thus loving all as self, stealing would never enter our minds or we would be inviting theft upon ourselves.

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True. God's will is that we "go on to perfection", not forever struggle with sinfulness. The law is a hedge that is always there, but our walk is with the spirit.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.


Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (forever)

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

(CLV) Ac 16:3
This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him because of the Jews who are in those places, for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks.

(CLV) Gn 17:13
He shall be circumcised, yea circumcised, the manservant born in your household or acquired with your money. Thus will My covenant be marked in your flesh as an eonian covenant. (forever)

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Gal 3:16-19 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He says not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to your seed, which is Christ.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot nullify, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Wherefore then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

That's all the Law serves for, because the law brings death to those who attempt to live by it:

Rom 7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

Your attempts to please God by the works of the Law will keep you under a curse.

Rom 7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

Gal 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

It's a curse because it brings a curse upon all those who hang onto the Law.

WORKS OF FAITH:

Rom 13:8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law."

WORKS PRODUCED BY FAITH ACCORDING TO JAMES:

You quoted James out of context with the rest of the above Biblical Revelation of God and of His Christ:

Love your neigbour for love fulfills the Law:

James 2:14-18 "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (For example) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be all of you warmed and filled; notwithstanding all of you give them not those things which are necessary to the body; what does it profit?

Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

James 2:1 "If all of you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbour as yourself, all of you do well: But if all of you have respect to persons, all of you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."

James is full of examples of what it means, what it looks like practically, when someone is fulfilling the only commandments:

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That all of you love one another; as I have loved you, that all of you also love one another."

Those who twist the meaning of James and other scriptures in attempts to bring others under the curse of the Law, are not doing anything that was not done by the Judaizers of the 1st century - and they who do so are insulting the Spirit of grace and implying that the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is insufficient. They must add their own works to it.

HARK! said:

Yes; but you didn't answer the question.

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Don't be silly ...

But it is funny that the Jews of the time had no idea what he was talking about...

Really it was because the law was flesh to them.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always."

Click to expand...

Need for a New Priesthood
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews chapters 8-10 continues to elaborate on these changes.
Hebrews 8:7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Hebrews 8:13. In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:19-22. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ga 3:24
So that the law has become our escort to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

Present perfect tense.

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We learn to walk before we run. Once we run we no longer walk. Can't do both at once. Of course we can 'backslide' into sin and therefore come under the law and it's penalty.