Who Do We Heed; Paul or YHWH?

Phil W · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always.

If you are walking in the Spirit, it is because the flesh has been killed. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
It is the now dead flesh that would have been enticed to do the things the Law bans.

JIMINZ · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Most of what I've seen out of Paul comes from the Torah.

I would agree because Paul called himself a Jew of Jews, but I would also say Jesus gave him insight as to the Spirit of it all.

Most of the time, Paul would give a comparison and what a strict adherence to the the Law required

DamianWarS · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always."

The poll feels very loaded

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

JIMINZ said:
I would agree because Paul called himself a Jew of Jews, but I would also say Jesus gave him insight as to the Spirit of it all.

I agree; but then again most of what Yahshua said came right out of the Torah, and most of that out of Deuteronomy.

HARK! · Apr 22, 2020

DamianWarS said:
The poll feels very loaded

Thank you. I gave it considerable thought. I couldn't make it match the title any better. It's almost perfect.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Thank you. I gave it considerable thought. I couldn't make it match the title any better. It's almost perfect.

Much like you, it lacks nuance.

DamianWarS · Apr 22, 2020

HARK! said:
Thank you. I gave it considerable thought. I couldn't make it match the title any better. It's almost perfect.

you were trying to be deceptive? :scratch:

OldWiseGuy · Apr 22, 2020

Oscarr said:
This reference proves your statement totally wrong.
"Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? Absolutely not! Instead, we uphold the Law" (Romans 3:30-31).

We uphold the law but we don't dwell on it (unless you are new in the faith). I don't steal, don't think about stealing, don't think about God's law against stealing, and don't think about the penalty for stealing. I have better things to think about.

Basil the Great · Apr 23, 2020

Some of us do not go to the Torah (other than The Ten Commandments) or Paul's letters for instruction, but to the Gospels.

Daniel9v9 · Apr 23, 2020

The OP question betrays a serious lack of understanding about the NT; namely, the person and works of Jesus Christ, God's Law and Gospel, and the role of prophets and apostles.

Paul and the Torah are absolutely not proclaiming competing ideas but are perfectly harmonious in thought. Both are the same Word of God and should be read in light of each other, but not forced against each other.

Anyone who presupposes that the words Paul are writing are not inspired by the Holy Spirit or received by Christ - YHWH - are both ignorant of the NT and the purpose and nature of God's Law and Gospel in general. To suggest that we should either listen to Paul, who is a messenger of YHWH, or Moses, who is also a messenger of YHWH, is absurd. All of Scripture is God-breathed and should be understood as the true Word of God.

Simply, Moses points forward to Christ, and Paul is pointing back to Christ; So Christ is always the centre of it all. To lose sight of this simple Christological reading of Scripture is to lose sight of all of Scripture, which then turns into a different religion altogether.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 23, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
We uphold the law but we don't dwell on it (unless you are new in the faith). I don't steal, don't think about stealing, don't think about God's law against stealing, and don't think about the penalty for stealing. I have better things to think about.

We need the Law to remind us that we are still sinners so we don't become self-righteous and arrogant through our performance. Repentance (change of attitude toward Christ) is essential for salvation, and the Law giving us guidance about forsaking of the works of the flesh is essential for developing sanctification and the avoidance of hypocrisy.

timothyu · Apr 23, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
I don't steal, don't think about stealing, don't think about God's law against stealing, and don't think about the penalty for stealing. I have better things to think about.

If we are putting God's will before our own thus loving all as self, stealing would never enter our minds or we would be inviting theft upon ourselves.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 23, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Some of us do not go to the Torah (other than The Ten Commandments) or Paul's letters for instruction, but to the Gospels.

It must be remembered that in the Gospels, Jesus's teaching consisted in the Law to unconverted Jews to show them that they were sinners and needed a better righteousness than the Pharisees.

Jesus continued His teaching through the agency of the Holy Spirit through Paul and the other Apostle. Therefore it is the same Holy Spirit who inspired the whole Torah, the Gospels, and the letters. So if one chooses to ignore the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul, then they are saying that the Holy Spirit's teaching through Paul is not worth having. For me, I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit and Jesus in that way by ignoring important teaching that Jesus taught by the Holy Spirit through Paul's letters.

NBB · Apr 23, 2020

If you are filled with the Holy spirit you don't grieve him by not doing the sabbath, you can be in the presence of God all day i say, and not do the sabbath, and nothing would happen, the same can't be said if you are sexual immoral or other grave sin doer. So, i believe when Paul said that nobody should judge you because of the sabbath, and you can eat everything in the butcher shop also, i take those scriptures literally.

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

DamianWarS said:
you were trying to be deceptive?

I don't understand what you're driving at but; no

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Some of us do not go to the Torah (other than The Ten Commandments) or Paul's letters for instruction, but to the Gospels.

The only gospel that was written when Paul wrote Galatians was Matthew. Did Paul find all of those laws in newly written book of Matthew; or did Paul get them from the Torah?

DamianWarS · Apr 23, 2020

HARK! said:
I don't understand what you're driving at but; no

A loaded statement lacks transparency and often hides its true meaning. You contrast Paul with the Torah using both to point to the same thing, which somewhat defeats the the point of a poll and misrepresents the positions of the people being polled. It shows me you only want to talk about one thing. You also unfairly conflat terms with Yahweh and Torah being used inseparable and forcing poll participates essentially to choose between God and not God which again misrepresents the positions being polled. You should add a new option that says "this poll has an unfair bias" and see how quickly that option gains

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
The OP question betrays a serious lack of understanding about the NT; namely, the person and works of Jesus Christ, God's Law and Gospel, and the role of prophets and apostles.

Paul and the Torah are absolutely not proclaiming competing ideas but are perfectly harmonious in thought. Both are the same Word of God and should be read in light of each other, but not forced against each other.

Anyone who presupposes that the words Paul are writing are not inspired by the Holy Spirit or received by Christ - YHWH - are both ignorant of the NT and the purpose and nature of God's Law and Gospel in general. To suggest that we should either listen to Paul, who is a messenger of YHWH, or Moses, who is also a messenger of YHWH, is absurd. All of Scripture is God-breathed and should be understood as the true Word of God.

Simply, Moses points forward to Christ, and Paul is pointing back to Christ; So Christ is always the centre of it all. To lose sight of this simple Christological reading of Scripture is to lose sight of all of Scripture, which then turns into a different religion altogether.

So Paul and the Torah, as well as Messiah all call us to obedience to YHWH's law?

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

NBB said:
If you are filled with the Holy spirit you don't grieve him by not doing the sabbath, you can be in the presence of God all day i say, and not do the sabbath, and nothing would happen, the same can't be said if you are sexual immoral or other grave sin doer. So, i believe when Paul said that nobody should judge you because of the sabbath, and you can eat everything in the butcher shop also, i take those scriptures literally.

Paul was speaking to new converts who were being judged by their Pagan friends and family for keeping the torah, not breaking the Torah. Paul called his disciples to follow him as he followed Messiah. Messiah kept the Torah perfectly.

How do you go about deciding which laws you should not take literally? This reminds me of the Garden scene.

HARK! · Apr 23, 2020

DamianWarS said:
You contrast Paul with the Torah using both to point to the same thing,

What thing would that be?

Who Do We Heed; Paul or YHWH?

Our go to for instruction:

Paul's letters

YHWH's Torah

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