Who Do We Heed; Paul or YHWH?

Our go to for instruction:

  • Paul's letters

  • YHWH's Torah


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HARK!

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(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Now all of these transgressions are listed in the Torah. That is where Paul pulled them from; but If I start listing those laws I get, "well that sounds legalistic. Are you one them Judy icers?"

So who do we listen to, Paul or YHWH?

What would Paul do?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

What would Messiah do?

(CLV) Jn 8:28
Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking.

(CLV) Jn 8:29
And He Who sends Me is with Me. He does not leave Me alone, for what is pleasing to Him am I doing always."


 

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It is the same Holy Spirit who inspired both. For new covenant believers, the Torah is written for our education and not for our direct instruction. Paul's letters are instructional for us. It is not a matter of any contradiction between them; it is more of how they are applied to us today.
 
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HARK!

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I see a trend on this board of framing Paul as an opponent of living a lawless life

*if* Paul is teaching against obeying God’s law, then we should not listen to him, because he is a false prophet.

You are correct. He must pass the Deuteronomy 13 test:

Deuteronomy 13
CLV(i) 1 In case there arises a prophet or a dreamer of dreams among you, and he gives to you a sign or a miracle, 2 and the sign or the miracle comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying:Let us go after other elohim (whom you have not known), and let us serve them, 3 you shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams because Yahweh your Elohim is probing you to know whether you are loving Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 After Yahweh your Elohim shall you go, and Him shall you fear; His instructions shall you observe, and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve, and to Him shall you cling. 5 Then that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death because he spoke of defection from Yahweh your Elohim (the One bringing you forth from the country of Egypt and the One ransoming you from the house of servants) so as to induce you from the way in which Yahweh your Elohim has instructed you to walk. Hence eradicate the evil from among you. 6 In case your brother, the son of your father, or the son of your mother or your son or your daughter or the wife of your bosom or your associate who is as your own soul should incite you in concealment, saying:Let us go, and let us serve other elohim (whom you have not known, you or your fathers, 7 of the elohim of the peoples who are around you, those near to you or those far from you, from one end of the land to the other end of the land). 8 neither shall you comply with him, nor shall you hearken to him; neither shall your eye commiserate over him, nor shall you spare him; and you shall not cover up for him. 9 For you shall kill, yea kill him. Your hand shall be among the first against him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people thereafter. 10 You will stone him with stones so that he dies, for he sought to induce you away from Yahweh your Elohim, the One bringing you forth from the country of Egypt, from the house of servants. 11 Thus all Israel shall hearken and fear, and they shall not again do anything like this evil thing among you. 12 In case you hear it said of one of your cities which Yahweh your Elohim is giving to you to dwell there, 13 that men, sons of decadence, have gone forth from among you and induced the dwellers of their city, saying:Let us go, and let us serve other elohim (whom you have not known), 14 then you will inquire, investigate and ask diligently. And behold, if the truth of the matter is being established that this abhorrence was done among you, 15 then you shall smite, yea smite the dwellers of that city with the edge of the sword. Doom it, all those who are in it and its domestic beasts, with the edge of the sword. 16 All its loot shall you get together to the middle of its square, and you will burn the city with fire and all its loot as a holocaust to Yahweh your Elohim. It will become an eonian barrow; it shall not be built again. 17 Nothing whatsoever shall cling to your hand from the doomed loot so that Yahweh may turn back from the heat of His anger and be compassionate to you. He will show you compassion and cause you to increase, just as He had sworn to your fathers, 18 provided that you shall hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim to observe all His instructions which I am enjoining on you today, to do what is upright and good in the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim.
 
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HARK!

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It is the same Holy Spirit who inspired both. For new covenant believers, the Torah is written for our education and not for our direct instruction. Paul's letters are instructional for us. It is not a matter of any contradiction between them; it is more of how they are applied to us today.

Yahshua's disciples seem to say differently:

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

Yahshua seems to say differently:

(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

Yahshua's father seems to say differently:

From Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.
 
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Dkh587

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It is the same Holy Spirit who inspired both. For new covenant believers, the Torah is written for our education and not for our direct instruction. Paul's letters are instructional for us. It is not a matter of any contradiction between them; it is more of how they are applied to us today.
The common teachings in Christianity are that Paul taught disobedience to God’s law

Christianity puts Paul’s letters at opposition with God & his law
 
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I see a trend on this board of framing Paul as an opponent of living a lawless life

*if* Paul is teaching against obeying God’s law, then we should not listen to him, because he is a false prophet.
Paul clearly says in Romans that the Law of God is holy and is not to be done away with. He said that it is our sinfulness that prevents us from being able to follow the Law perfectly, and God requires absolute perfection from the childhood up in order for salvation to be gained from following it. That is why Paul says that no person is justified of God by following the Law.

Paul says that we need the Law to show us that we are sinners, and it is our tutor to remind us that we are and will always be sinners until we are glorified in heaven. It is only when we know that we are sinners, deserving of hell because we cannot follow the Law, that the gospel of Christ becomes good news.

Therefore, as Paul says, salvation is gained by God's mercy and grace, through our faith in Christ's finished work on the cross, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God, not of works lest any should boast. Therefore, our righteousness does not come from following the Law, but through the perfect righteousness of Christ, who did follow the Law perfectly, bestowed on us.

But the Law does have a function in our progress in sanctification, because to repent, we need to know what we are repenting from, and we need to know what the works of the flesh are, so we can forsake them. We need the Law to give us that information so we know what we are to forsake if we are to walk in the Spirit.
 
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HARK!

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The common teachings in Christianity are that Paul taught disobedience to God’s law

Christianity puts Paul’s letters at opposition with God & his law

One has to skip over some glaring statements from Paul to think that way. For example:

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Based on that statement alone; how could anyone conclude that Paul was doing away with YHWH's law?
 
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Yahshua's disciples seem to say differently:

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

Yahshua seems to say differently:

(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

Yahshua's father seems to say differently:

From Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.
When Paul preached, he made extensive use of the Torah to support his doctrine. If one doesn't believe that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit, then one cannot put any trust in anything he says. Therefore, the only option is to go back to Judaism. Good luck on that one!
 
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HARK!

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Paul clearly says in Romans that the Law of God is holy and is not to be done away with. He said that it is our sinfulness that prevents us from being able to follow the Law perfectly

Well according to Paul it would seem that we can get awfully close:

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."
 
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The common teachings in Christianity are that Paul taught disobedience to God’s law

Christianity puts Paul’s letters at opposition with God & his law
This reference proves your statement totally wrong.
"Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? Absolutely not! Instead, we uphold the Law" (Romans 3:30-31).
 
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HARK!

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When Paul preached, he made extensive use of the Torah to support his doctrine. If one doesn't believe that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit, then one cannot put any trust in anything he says. Therefore, the only option is to go back to Judaism. Good luck on that one!

Why would you say that if Paul is wrong on any count, that my only option is to go back to Judaism?

I wasn't following Paul to begin with. I was following Yahshua. You could take Paul completely out of the picture; and I'd still have Yahshua's example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
 
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HARK!

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<paul is a false prophet

k i'm out bye

Nope. Just misunderstood.

(CLV) 2Pt 3:16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction.

Shalom
 
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HARK!

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This reference proves your statement totally wrong.
"Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? Absolutely not! Instead, we uphold the Law" (Romans 3:30-31).

I'm fairly sure that David wasn't talking about Paul, nor true Christian teachings. I'm fairly sure he was talking about a large segment of Christianity who have scales on their eyes. Thus, the purpose of this thread. You seem to be part of the solution.
 
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HARK!

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@HARK! Can you name any specific instances of things you've seen/heard that make you think people are using Paul's epistles for any kind of agenda?

The biggest one that jumps right to mind:

"I don't keep the Sabbath. I'm not under the law."
 
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theoneandonlypencil

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The biggest one that jumps right to mind:

"I don't keep the Sabbath. I'm not under the law."

Okay, and what do you think of Mark 2:23-28?
 
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