The Earth will Burn

claninja · Apr 17, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Various Scripture shows that “the beginning” of this age kicked in at the beginning of creation. Well, Scripture also equally delineates that the end of this age will occur at the restoration of creation, the time when Jesus returns to make all things new. When man fell, all creation experienced the awful consequences of that tragedy and fell with him. The curse upon man caused the curse to fall upon this earth. The curse upon both is equally lifted simultaneously when Jesus returns.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming (parousia). Then cometh the end (or télos), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

From a careful study of these expressions you will see that what is referred to as “this age/time” has a defined end, whereas the “the age to come” has none. The reason for this is that the termination of “this age” brings an end to time, whereas the ushering in the “the age to come” brings in the eternal.

To inherit the new earth is actually to be qualified to populate it. Only the new creation can inherit the new creation. The new glorified incorrupt earth is not for mortals. It is not for the wicked. It is for the incorupt redeemed. It is for the glorified saints.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 describes how the Church is “waiting for the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end (or telos), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The coming of the Lord is again associated with “the end.” The end of the age is manifestly the end! In this, we see a glorious promise that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.” This promise was never intended to relate to, or expire at, AD70. This is a promise that relates to our earthly sojourn in this sinful world in life and time.

In Matthew 24, Jerusalem was on the cusp of experiencing utter destruction, including the removal of their temple (the center of their religious worship). Moreover, that loss would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 as they stood in front of the still-standing temple complex.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (or sunteleías meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (aion)?”

The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is also found in the above passage being coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming. Notwithstanding, there is much detail about the days that precede His return.

Premils and Preterists do not believe that “the end” refers to the actual end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It refers to the completion. It is the termination point of a thing.

When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then theologians universally agree it is talking about “the beginning” of time/this age/creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this, many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason probably is because it cuts across a lot of end-time theology they have been taught. However, both should be treated similarly.

Because the last days or last times began with Christ’s earthly ministry and ends at His final future climatic coming. The “last day” is repeatedly shown as the day when the general resurrection occurs in the future. There is no way to wiggle out of that.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

What is this talking about?

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

What is this talking about?

James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

I'm glad we can find common ground in agreeing the last days began with Christ's 1st coming in the flesh.

Hebrews 9:26 But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

But the argument that the "last days" has been occurring for the last 2,000 years by spiritualizing away the meaning of time statements like "at hand" and "soon" doesn't really make for a sound argument.

sovereigngrace · Apr 17, 2020

claninja said:
I'm glad we can find common ground in agreeing the last days began with Christ's 1st coming in the flesh.

Hebrews 9:26 But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

But the argument that the "last days" has been occurring for the last 2,000 years by spiritualizing away the meaning of time statements like "at hand" and "soon" doesn't really make for a sound argument.

To you: the coming of Titus and the AD70, is somehow made "the last day" of "the last days." But Scripture teaches otherwise. It describes the future second coming. This is all wrong and you have not yet proved this. You are just assuming that it is right. You have to prove your case. You have to prove that they are synonymous and that they end with the coming of Titus in AD70. The reality is: Preterists are fixated with Titus and AD70. They speak more of that than of the coming of Christ and His glorious climactic return.

Contrary to the Preterist fixation with AD70, the grace period never stopped with the coming of Titus. It is still ongoing. It lasts throughout "the last days" period - the day of salvation.

The "last days" end on the "last day" when the "kingdom of God" will be handed up by Christ to the Father. They cover the same era from start to finish!

The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes. This has definitely not happened yet. This is when the redeemed are finally glorified. This has definitely not happened yet.

Your whole reasoning is farcical and unbiblical.

sovereigngrace · Apr 17, 2020

claninja said:
The great commission started prior to the events of 66-70 ad.

matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciplesd of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

When do you believe the good and bad are gathered into the wedding hall?

Obviously, I would disagree with your misunderstanding of my position.

I believe the wedding feast is the new covenant with all of its fulfilled promises, which are found in solely in the work of Christ, from his 1st advent and onward.

Again, the great commission started prior to 66-70ad, not afterward.

So do you believe the angels gathering the elect AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad as stated in the olivet discourse, is different than servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding hall AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in the parable of the wedding feast? I believe they are speaking of the same thing, but I'm interested to hear what why you think these events are not the same, IF you believe they are not.

Matthew 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find, both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Matthew 24:31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

What do you believe the wedding feast is, and the hall that the good and bad are gathered into by the servants after the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad?

The invitation went out to the Jew first, then the Gentile. This all commenced through the earthly ministry of Christ. While the great commission continues on in this current intra-Advent period, that does not negate the judgment that befell Jerusalem in AD70. They were punished for their rejection of Christ. But the world did not finish then. The new covenant did not finish then. It finished on the cross. The great commission did not finish then. The general resurrection / judgment did not happen then. Glorification did not happen then. That will happen on the last day of the last days - the climactic coming of Christ.

claninja · Apr 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
To you: the coming of Titus and the AD70, is somehow made "the last day" of "the last days." But Scripture teaches otherwise. It describes the future second coming. This is all wrong and you have not yet proved this. You are just assuming that it is right. You have to prove your case. You have to prove that they are synonymous and that they end with the coming of Titus in AD70. The reality is: Preterists are fixated with Titus and AD70. They speak more of that than of the coming of Christ and His glorious climactic return.

Contrary to the Preterist fixation with AD70, the grace period never stopped with the coming of Titus. It is still ongoing. It lasts throughout "the last days" period - the day of salvation.

The "last days" end on the "last day" when the "kingdom of God" will be handed up by Christ to the Father. They cover the same era from start to finish!

The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes. This has definitely not happened yet. This is when the redeemed are finally glorified. This has definitely not happened yet.

Your whole reasoning is farcical and unbiblical.

sovereigngrace said:
The invitation went out to the Jew first, then the Gentile. This all commenced through the earthly ministry of Christ. While the great commission continues on in this current intra-Advent period, that does not negate the judgment that befell Jerusalem in AD70. They were punished for their rejection of Christ. But the world did not finish then. The new covenant did not finish then. It finished on the cross. The great commission did not finish then. The general resurrection / judgment did not happen then. Glorification did not happen then. That will happen on the last day of the last days - the climactic coming of Christ.

So.......

Back to my questions. What do you believe the wedding hall represents, in which the good and bad were gathered into it FOLLOWING the destruction of the murderers and city by the Kings troops?

Matthew 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find, both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Do you believe the gathering of the elect by the angels after the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is different from the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of Jerusalem in the parable of the wedding feast?

sovereigngrace · Apr 18, 2020

claninja said:
So.......

Back to my questions. What do you believe the wedding hall represents, in which the good and bad were gathered into it FOLLOWING the destruction of the murderers and city by the Kings troops?

Matthew 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find, both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Do you believe the gathering of the elect by the angels after the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is different from the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of Jerusalem in the parable of the wedding feast?

I have told you previously, but you will not accept it. The parable relates to the ongoing invitation of the sinner to Christ. The consummation of that union occurs when Jesus comes.

Now, will you address my arguments?

Adamina · Apr 18, 2020

keras said: ↑
Interpret for us;
2 Peter 3:7 By Gods Word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for burning; they are being kept until the Day of Judgment, when the godless will be destroyed.

Lost4words said:
Jerusalem, 70AD....

Is that the view of the Catholic Church? According to Luke 19/21, Reve 18:8 and Josephus, that is a strong possibility....
As I mentioned earlier, nowhere is it shown the whole global world destroyed by fire.

Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee and the enemies of Thee shall be according casting a siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee and together-pressing Thee every which place.
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 18:
8 because of this in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and mourning and famine, and in fire She shall be being burned that strong *Lord the God, the One-judging Her
18 stood afar off, and cried aloud when they saw the smoke of Her burning. And they said, 'What is like this great city?'
================================
Josephus recants a similar scene concerning Jerusalem 70ad and the City engulfed by fire:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes.

The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan. The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire. The blood of the sufferers flowed in proportion to the rage of this de structive element ; and the number of the slain exceeded all calculation. The ground could not be seen for the dead bodies, over which the Romans trampled in pursuit of the fugitives ;
while the crackling noise of the devouring flames mingled with the clamor of arms, the groans of the dying and the shrieks of despair, augmented the tremendous horror of a scene, to which the pages of history can furnish no parallel.

Amongst the tragical events which at this time occured, the following is more particularly deserving of notice : a false prophet, pretending to a divine commission, affirmed that, if the people would repair to the Temple, they should behold signs of their speedy deliverance. Accordingly about six thousand persons, chiefly women and children, assembled in a gallery, that was yet standing, on the outside of the building.
Whilst they waited in anxious expectation of the promised miracle, the Romans with the most wanton barbarity, set fire to the gallery ; from which, multitudes; rendered frantic by their horrible situation, precipitated themselves on the ruins below, and were killed by the fall : while, awful to relate, the rest, without a single exception, perished in the flames. So

Lost4words · Apr 18, 2020

Adamina said:
Is that the view of the Catholic Church? According to Luke 19/21, Reve 18:8 and Josephus, that is a strong possibility....
As I mentioned earlier, nowhere is it shown the whole global world destroyed by fire.

Luke 19:43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee and the enemies of Thee shall be according casting a siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee and together-pressing Thee every which place.
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 18:
8 because of this in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and mourning and famine, and in fire She shall be being burned that strong *Lord the God, the One-judging Her
18 stood afar off, and cried aloud when they saw the smoke of Her burning. And they said, 'What is like this great city?'
================================
Josephus recants a similar scene concerning Jerusalem 70ad and the City engulfed by fire:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes.

The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan. The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire. The blood of the sufferers flowed in proportion to the rage of this de structive element ; and the number of the slain exceeded all calculation. The ground could not be seen for the dead bodies, over which the Romans trampled in pursuit of the fugitives ;
while the crackling noise of the devouring flames mingled with the clamor of arms, the groans of the dying and the shrieks of despair, augmented the tremendous horror of a scene, to which the pages of history can furnish no parallel.

Amongst the tragical events which at this time occured, the following is more particularly deserving of notice : a false prophet, pretending to a divine commission, affirmed that, if the people would repair to the Temple, they should behold signs of their speedy deliverance. Accordingly about six thousand persons, chiefly women and children, assembled in a gallery, that was yet standing, on the outside of the building.
Whilst they waited in anxious expectation of the promised miracle, the Romans with the most wanton barbarity, set fire to the gallery ; from which, multitudes; rendered frantic by their horrible situation, precipitated themselves on the ruins below, and were killed by the fall : while, awful to relate, the rest, without a single exception, perished in the flames. So

My personal view

sovereigngrace · Apr 18, 2020

claninja said:
So.......

Back to my questions. What do you believe the wedding hall represents, in which the good and bad were gathered into it FOLLOWING the destruction of the murderers and city by the Kings troops?

Matthew 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find, both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Do you believe the gathering of the elect by the angels after the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is different from the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of Jerusalem in the parable of the wedding feast?

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

What is this talking about?

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

What is this talking about?

James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

keras · Apr 18, 2020

Adamina said:
As I mentioned earlier, nowhere is it shown the whole global world destroyed by fire.

Right; not destroyed, but devastated and the enemies punished.

Zephaniah 3:8 Wait for Me, says the Lord, wait for the Day when I stand up and accuse mankind. For I shall pour out My wrath upon nations and kingdoms, in My burning anger: the whole earth will be devastated by fire.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is near and coming fast. That Day will be a Day of distress and torment, a Day of devastation amid thick darkness. A Day of thunder and destruction against military fortifications and cities. the Lord will bring terrible distress upon the people, they won’t know which way to turn as they are punished for their sins against Me. Their blood and guts will be spilled out like filth over the ground. Neither their treasure nor their idols will be able to save them on the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord’s fiery anger. All the [holy] Land will be burned and devastated. Ezekiel 20:46-48

Zephaniah 2:1-3 Prepare yourselves, you undesirable nation, be humble before you disappear like chaff, before the burning anger of the Lord comes upon you. Seek righteousness; seek humility, all you people in the Land who obey God’s Laws and it may be that you will find shelter on the Day of the Lord’s anger.

Zephaniah 2:4-7 Gaza will be deserted, Ashkelon left in ruins. At midday all the towns of the Mediterranean coast will be cleared of inhabitants, for the Word of God is against you – land of the Philistines. I shall lay you in ruins, no one will survive. The sea coast will become a sheep grazing area belonging to the survivors of Judah, for their God will turn to them and restore their fortunes. Isaiah 14-1, Ezekiel 36:1-37

Zephaniah 2:8-10 I have noted the insults of Moab and the Ammonites, how they have reviled My people and encroached on their frontiers. For this, I swear, they will become like Sodom and Gomorrah, a place of weeds and salt pans. Those of My people who survive will inherit their land. This is retribution for their pride, because they have insulted God’s people and taken over their Land. Jeremiah 12:14, Amos 2:1-5

Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall rid you of your proud and arrogant citizens, but I will leave a remnant, a humble people who will trust in Me. The survivors in Israel will be righteous, under My protection. Isaiah 31:5

Zephaniah 3:19-20 When the time comes and I have dealt with your oppressors, then I shall rescue the lost and gather the dispersed and bring you all to your homeland. You will win respect and renown from the other nations when I restore your fortunes before your very eyes, It is I, the Lord, who speaks. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

Wait for the Day; the whole earth burned and devastated. The only known way how this could happen, is by a massive Coronal Mass Ejection, a fire judgement mentioned and described over 100 times in Bible prophecy. It will be the event that ‘comes like a thief’, unexpected and shocking. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1
The earth will be enveloped by fire, Zephaniah 3:8, but this quickly passes and most people will take shelter and survive it. Isaiah 2:21, Revelation 6:15-17
We ARE told what to do: Isaiah 26:20-21

You undesirable nation – the Israelite people: now that is, every born again Christian. It may be that those who live righteously and humbly will ‘find shelter on the Day of the Lord’s anger.’ 2 Peter 2:9

Philistines and Moab and Ammon – Palestinians and Jordanians. Amos 1:6-8 & 13-14, Ezekiel 21:28-1

leave a remnant in Jerusalem, under My protection – Isaiah 4:3, Romans 9:27

rescue the lost....bring you home – The great gathering of all the faithful Christian peoples, prophesied more than 40 times, to happen soon after this forthcoming, worldwide fire judgement. They will live in the promised Land, under God’s protection and when the Anti Christ comes to Jerusalem, Daniel 11:31-32, Revelation 13:7, they are taken to a place of safety until the Return of Jesus.

claninja · Apr 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I have told you previously, but you will not accept it. The parable relates to the ongoing invitation of the sinner to Christ.

I accept that you believe the parable as a whole relates to the ongoing invitation of the sinner to Christ.

As I believe the wedding feast is symbolic for the new covenant and its fulfilled promises, we find ourselves, at least partly, in agreement.

sovereigngrace said:
. The consummation of that union occurs when Jesus comes.

Does this mean you believe the wedding feast of the parable in matthew 22 = the consummation? Or do you believe the wedding feast is symbolic for something else?

Does this also mean that you believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of the temple in the olivet discourse are unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers?

sovereigngrace said:
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

What is this talking about?

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand [Gr. eggizō]: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

What is this talking about?

James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō].

What is this talking about?

in regards to all verses you posted: The coming of the Lord in judgment upon Israel in the destruction of the temple and that old, obsolete covenant, and the gathering of the good and bad into the wedding hall.

sovereigngrace · Apr 21, 2020

claninja said:
I accept that you believe the parable as a whole relates to the ongoing invitation of the sinner to Christ.

As I believe the wedding feast is symbolic for the new covenant and its fulfilled promises, we find ourselves, at least partly, in agreement.

Does this mean you believe the wedding feast of the parable in matthew 22 = the consummation? Or do you believe the wedding feast is symbolic for something else?

Does this also mean that you believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of the temple in the olivet discourse are unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers?

in regards to all verses you posted: The coming of the Lord in judgment upon Israel in the destruction of the temple and that old, obsolete covenant, and the gathering of the good and bad into the wedding hall.

We are so far apart on the focus of Scripture that I do not have the time or interest to unravel you from this mess. To all solid orthodox Christians, Christ is the center of the Word of God. His work at His first Advent and His glorious future return are the reason for Christian living! Your fixation with Titus and AD70 are totally contrary to the Word of God. These Full Preterist fundamentals you promote are another gospel and should be rejected by all Bible believing Christians.

To suggest that man's "redemption" came nigh (Luke 21:28 ) with the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.
To suggest that that the command in Romans 13:12 to "cast off the works of darkness, and ... put on the armour of light" relates to the coming of Titus in AAD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.
To place the exhortation to fellowship much more as we see "the day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25) to the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.
To remotely think that "the end of all things" (1 Peter 4:7 ) came with the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.
To think that James is telling believers to to be patient and established in their heart (James 5:6) till the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.

claninja · Apr 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
We are so far apart on the focus of Scripture that I do not have the time or interest to unravel you from this mess.

So...…... then you do believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is completely different and unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers in the matthew 22?

I'm still not clear on what you believe the wedding feast is.....

I believe the wedding feast symbolizes the new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ. What do you believe the wedding feast is?

sovereigngrace said:
These Full Preterist fundamentals you promote are another gospel and should be rejected by all Bible believing Christians.

Strawman arguments.....easy to build up......easy to tear down...…

The gospel is centrally built upon the 1st advent of Christ. Through his ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension to all authority over all ages, Christ destroyed the works of the devil and sent the spirit to regenerate those elected in God from the foundation of the world to become a kingdom of priests. This kingdom, which is God's temple not built by hands, continues to conquer through the growing of the body and the spreading of the gospel. Now, the 2nd death has now power over those who have been born again.

I believe in a future resurrection. I hold that Christ is coming on the clouds and every I will see Him. I do not believe these are past, completely fulfilled events as full preterist do.

I believe futurists' eschatologies are a dime a dozen. I don't believe the gospel is found in speculating revelation and the OT eschatologies. I believe Christ, beginning at the first advent, is the eschatological fulfillment of Israel.

sovereigngrace said:
To suggest that man's "redemption" came nigh (Luke 21:28 ) with the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.

I agree.

sovereigngrace said:
To suggest that that the command in Romans 13:12 to "cast off the works of darkness, and ... put on the armour of light" relates to the coming of Titus in AAD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.

I agree.

sovereigngrace said:
To place the exhortation to fellowship much more as we see "the day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25) to the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.

I agree.

sovereigngrace said:
To remotely think that "the end of all things" (1 Peter 4:7 ) came with the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.

I agree.

sovereigngrace said:
To think that James is telling believers to to be patient and established in their heart (James 5:6) till the coming of Titus in AD70, instead of Jesus at the second coming, is ridiculous, utter folly, grievous and an anathema to the sacred text.

I agree.

sovereigngrace · Apr 21, 2020

claninja said:
I agree.

I agree.

I agree.

I agree.

I agree.

So, why did you say the opposite in your previous post?

claninja · Apr 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
So, why did you say the opposite in your previous post?

Where did I mention Titus in the previous post?

Also.... you didn't answer...…

Then you do believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is completely different and unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers in the matthew 22?

I'm still not clear on what you believe the wedding feast is.....

I believe the wedding feast symbolizes the new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ. What do you believe the wedding feast is?

sovereigngrace · Apr 21, 2020

claninja said:
So...…... then you do believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is completely different and unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers in the matthew 22?

I'm still not clear on what you believe the wedding feast is.....

I believe the wedding feast symbolizes the new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ. What do you believe the wedding feast is?

Strawman arguments.....easy to build up......easy to tear down...…

The gospel is centrally built upon the 1st advent of Christ. Through his ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension to all authority over all ages, Christ destroyed the works of the devil and sent the spirit to regenerate those elected in God from the foundation of the world to become a kingdom of priests. This kingdom, which is God's temple not built by hands, continues to conquer through the growing of the body and the spreading of the gospel. Now, the 2nd death has now power over those who have been born again.

I believe in a future resurrection. I hold that Christ is coming on the clouds and every I will see Him. I do not believe these are past, completely fulfilled events as full preterist do.

I believe futurists' eschatologies are a dime a dozen. I don't believe the gospel is found in speculating revelation and the OT eschatologies. I believe Christ, beginning at the first advent, is the eschatological fulfillment of Israel.

I believe the calling to the wedding feast symbolizes the evangelistic call, which started in the old covenant and carried through to new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ. The wedding and consummation occurs at His climactic return when the great commission concludes.

sovereigngrace · Apr 21, 2020

claninja said:
Where did I mention Titus in the previous post?

Also.... you didn't answer...…

Then you do believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is completely different and unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers in the matthew 22?

I'm still not clear on what you believe the wedding feast is.....

I believe the wedding feast symbolizes the new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ. What do you believe the wedding feast is?

There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning (Matthew 24:27)? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret or figurative appearance in this text.

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

Which elect did Jesus gather in heaven in AD70 and bring with Him?

claninja · Apr 21, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There were 11 witnesses that saw Jesus taken up in a cloud into heaven. What witnesses do we have that actually saw Jesus come in AD70 literally, physically and visibly?

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden, visible and spectacular than lightning (Matthew 24:27)? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret or figurative appearance in this text.

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

Which elect did Jesus gather in heaven in AD70 and bring with Him?

I have no problem having this conversation once you tell me what I have already asked multiple times now with no response from you.

So here it goes again...….

Then you do believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is completely different and unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers in the matthew 22?

I'm still not clear on what you believe the wedding feast is.....

I believe the wedding feast symbolizes the new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ. What do you believe the wedding feast is?

sovereigngrace · Apr 21, 2020

claninja said:
I have no problem having this conversation once you tell me what I have already asked multiple times now with no response from you.

So here it goes again...….

Then you do believe the angels gathering the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem in the olivet discourse is completely different and unrelated to the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast following the destruction of the city and murderers in the matthew 22?

I'm still not clear on what you believe the wedding feast is.....

I believe the wedding feast symbolizes the new covenant and its fulfilled promises through Christ. What do you believe the wedding feast is?

You are gerrymandering the texts. Let them speak for themselves. 2+2=4, not 22. You have not showed me in Matthew 22 where the angels gather the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem? Where is it? Stop forcing a second coming reference in Matthew 14 into Matthew 22. It doesn't belong there.

claninja · Apr 22, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
As usual, you are gerrymandering the texts.

I could make the same subjective argument...…

sovereigngrace said:
Let them speak for themselves. 2+2=4, not 22. You have not showed me in Matthew 22 where the angels gather the elect following the destruction of Jerusalem? Where is it?

What do you believe the wedding feast is in the parable of the wedding feast?

Do you believe this wedding feast is different from the wedding feast in Matthew 25 or different from the one in Revelation 19? Yes or No?

Matthew 22:10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Matthew 25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.

Revelation 19:9 And the angel saida to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb

Are the good and bad gathered to the wedding feast after the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem according to Jesus' parable? Yes or No?

Matthew 22:7-10 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Immediately after the great tribulation of Jerusalem, where are the angels gathering the elect to?

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

sovereigngrace · Apr 22, 2020

keras said:
Claninja and Sovereigngrace,
You are a classic case of the blind leading the blind.
Typical of those who post on forums, you both have very fixed beliefs and opinions. No one changes easily, but what astounds me is how people remain gripping onto false teachings; theories and doctrines that just do not have any proper Biblical support.

I see you two as being as Isaiah 29:9-12 says. You have confused* yourselves by believing ideas that are not Biblical, fanciful notions that are quite incredible and literally impossible.
* The KJV says; 'amazed', the CJB says; 'stupid', the NIV says; 'stupid and amazed', the REB translates it best as 'confused'.
Thankfully, we have Gods promise that after the forthcoming judgment/punishment of the world by fire, He will open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf, to the truth of His plans. Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 42:18-20

Many will be very embarrassed and will bitterly regret their promotion of false ideas.
Why take that risk? James 3:1
Wouldn't it be better to just keep quiet about your beliefs if they aren't clearly stated in the Bible?

You are so out of order you are unbelievable.

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