CIA issued warning about hydroxychloroquine

Interesting -- your link says " results of a study using routinely collected data to emulate a target trial"

RocksInMyHead said:

Just checking to see if you understand what that bit you highlighted means. For clarification, they looked at real patients who were really being treated for COVID-19, and half of them received Hydroxychloroquine.

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As opposed to actually doing the drug trial themselves where you would have peer-reviewed result and monitored trial to make sure all the parameters were "the same".

There is the "cherry picking" alternative - but that has a lot more wiggle room for fudging.

================= but as you seem to think that both methods get to the same result..

fine:


French study of 1,000+ patients, including seniors, see 98% success rate with hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin regimen | CLG News

Clinical medical trials for hydroxychloroquine show astounding clinical results - Geller Report News

Except for all the times that it did stop the symptoms

hislegacy said:

Now everyone is an expert on pharmacology.

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Considering how poor your understanding on how taxes work was/still is, I can see how everyone would come across that way.

BobRyan said:

As opposed to actually doing the drug trial themselves where you would have peer-reviewed result and monitored trial to make sure all the parameters were "the same".

There is the "cherry picking" alternative - but that has a lot more wiggle room for fudging.

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If you actually read the methods section, you would know that they did not cherry-pick their sample. It was randomly selected from the pool of patients that met their criteria. I agree that it's not as robust as a full clinical trial, but it's still relevant data.

but as you seem to think that both methods get to the same result..

fine:

Except for all the times that it did stop the symptoms

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If we're going to talk about flaws in studies, it should be pointed out that the one you continue to refer to DID, in fact, cherry-pick its participants. There was no randomization. There are a number of other irregularities about the study as well, including changes in methodology, removing participants from the study, and a rather hasty peer-review process. They're detailed pretty thoroughly here: Thoughts on the Gautret et al. paper about Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin treatment of COVID-19 infections
and here:Hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19: What do the clinical trials tell us? - CEBM

Let me be clear that I'm NOT saying that hydrochloroquine isn't a valid treatment for COVID-19. What I'm trying to relate is that there is simply not enough data at this point to say whether or not it will be effective. There are about 150 clinical trials of HCQ currently underway around the globe - let's wait for some more of those results to come in before making definitive statements, okay?

TLK Valentine said:

Brazil's been seeing some problems, too:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...460050-7db6-11ea-84c2-0792d8591911_story.html



Now, this might actually be some good news; if it turns out that the heart problems are related to the dosage rather than the drug iteself, it can lead to some good guidelines for treatment... assuming, of course, the drug actually, you know, works. (too soon to tell from this study)

... because it wouldn't be the first time that a drug was found to have... interesting... side effects in larger doses. Sildenifil citrate comes to mind: at low doses, it lowers blood pressure, but at higher doses, doctors found an... ahem.. "uplifting" side effect in their male test subjects.

The drug was given a new brand name when sold in these higher doses... "Viagra."

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So why is it that these medical professionals in Brazil don't even seem to know that it must be the dosage they've been using? This is not some mystery that they should have to figure out....it's always been known that it can create a possible heart disturbance if the dosage is excessive. If 1/4 of those they gave it experienced such then they obviously crossed the line to excessive. Proof is 1/4 of those using it for years haven't found it produced such results so yes it has to be the dosage.

Hydroxychloroquine: Side effects, dosage, COVID-19 (under study)

TLK Valentine said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...129d64-7dba-11ea-8013-1b6da0e4a2b7_story.html



Let the record show another vote of "no confidence" in Dr. Donald's cure-all.

Thoughts?

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Yeah, well people said snake oil was no use either, and that cocaine and opium are bad for you. What do they know? More fake news to make Donald look bad. It’s like all those fake news people screaming that going bankrupt repeatedly, defrauding people, not paying your debts and all those awesome things aren’t the signs of a great and successful businessman, fake, fake, fakety fake.

RocksInMyHead said:

Let me be clear that I'm NOT saying that hydrochloroquine isn't a valid treatment for COVID-19. What I'm trying to relate is that there is simply not enough data at this point to say whether or not it will be effective. There are about 150 clinical trials of HCQ currently underway around the globe - let's wait for some more of those results to come in before making definitive statements, okay?

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And keep in mind there might be many who can't wait. To those they DON'T CARE about absolute definite statements at least many don't. As for me I think I've read enough now to know that if I had the virus and was pretty bad off I'd want to give it a try. Would it work for me? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's like setting off a flare on a sinking ship. May not help but if the ship is going to flounder in an hour or two one shouldn't do at least everything they can when they know others have set off such a flare and got help? Nope...not going to set off the flares for there's no guarantee it will work? As for me though I'd give them a try. Could be wrong but that's what I'd do.

Tom 1 said:

Yeah, well people said snake oil was no use either, and that cocaine and opium are bad for you.

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If the drug we're talking about was like snake oil, cocaine or opium would it not have been banned from being prescribed for many other conditions years ago?

Bobber said:

If the drug we're talking about was like snake oil, cocaine or opium would it not have been banned from being prescribed for many other conditions years ago?

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There’s little to choose between Trump attempting to push this as a wonder drug and earlier claims about cocaine, opium - both of which were used for centuries for various medical ailments as well as recreation. That’s the point - someone, anyone, in a position of authority has no business pushing a dangerous drug on a public who may be inclined to take that person seriously. In terms of the claims of its efficacy for covid19 for the moment at least those are not much different to the claims made for snake oil and whatever else people used to flog as a cure all.

Bobber said:

And keep in mind there might be many who can't wait. To those they DON'T CARE about absolute definite statements at least many don't. As for me I think I've read enough now to know that if I had the virus and was pretty bad off I'd want to give it a try. Would it work for me? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's like setting off a flare on a sinking ship. May not help but if the ship is going to flounder in an hour or two one shouldn't do at least everything they can when they know others have set off such a flare and got help? Nope...not going to set off the flares for there's no guarantee it will work? As for me though I'd give them a try. Could be wrong but that's what I'd do.

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There are many different treatments being tested that have shown some promise. As far as I can tell, those who desperately need aggressive treatment are getting it in one form or another, subject to availability. It's not like HCQ is the only drug that does anything - other anti-virals have been effective as well.

The concerns around promoting HCQ are that:
1. People who don't need it will try to obtain it, either through less-than-scrupulous doctors or over the internet. This reduces the supply for those who do need it and is dangerous because of the potential for severe side effects and interactions with other medications, as well as the sensitivity to proper dosing.

2. Patients will demand to be treated with it, even if doctors determine that it's not appropriate. This also makes it much more difficult to trial other promising drugs and treatments.

RocksInMyHead said:

The concerns around promoting HCQ are that:
1. People who don't need it will try to obtain it, either through less-than-scrupulous doctors or over the internet. This reduces the supply for those who do need it and is dangerous because of the potential for severe side effects and interactions with other medications, as well as the sensitivity to proper dosing.

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I agree with what you say as long as a good family doctor is not being labelled as less-than-scrupulous just because they prescribed it. And of course the dosage how they respond to other medications the person might be taken is a serious issue.

2. Patients will demand to be treated with it, even if doctors determine that it's not appropriate. This also makes it much more difficult to trial other promising drugs and treatments.

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Yes and if they have other promising drugs that needs to come to the forefront immediately and yes with evidence that they're having a good effect. Many make light of anecdotal stories they hear of people being helped of one drug. Well if they have something better they better have those helped come forth and tell their stories as well. Charts and data are fine but hearing real stories of real people are an encouragement too.

Something to point out, covid19 damages the heart, maybe thats why it's dangerous with this drug, your giving something that damages the heart, to people with a disease that damages the heart...

Bobber said:

I agree with what you say as long as a good family doctor is not being labelled as less-than-scrupulous just because they prescribed it. And of course the dosage how they respond to other medications the person might be taken is a serious issue.

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While I wouldn't necessarily call a family doctor unscrupulous for prescribing it (as that depends on motivation), at this point I would call him irresponsible for two reasons. First, with the documented side effects in relation to COVID-19, it should not be issued OTC. And second, if you're well enough to visit your family doctor (and not be immediately sent to the hospital), you don't need HCQ. Anyone who desperately needs this level of treatment is going to already be in a hospital.

RocksInMyHead said:

There are many different treatments being tested that have shown some promise. As far as I can tell, those who desperately need aggressive treatment are getting it in one form or another, subject to availability. It's not like HCQ is the only drug that does anything - other anti-virals have been effective as well.

The concerns around promoting HCQ are that:
1. People who don't need it will try to obtain it, either through less-than-scrupulous doctors or over the internet. This reduces the supply for those who do need it and is dangerous because of the potential for severe side effects and interactions with other medications, as well as the sensitivity to proper dosing.

2. Patients will demand to be treated with it, even if doctors determine that it's not appropriate. This also makes it much more difficult to trial other promising drugs and treatments.

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It sounds like a plot from a movie.

Oh wait....

Bobber said:

And keep in mind there might be many who can't wait. To those they DON'T CARE about absolute definite statements at least many don't. As for me I think I've read enough now to know that if I had the virus and was pretty bad off I'd want to give it a try.

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Why that particular unproven treatment compared to any of the other promising but also unproven ones?

TLK Valentine said:

Nor does this sudden run on hydroxychloroquine... and yet I've been told that people will die while waiting for it.

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Unfortunately that has already happened.

hislegacy said:

Now everyone is an expert on pharmacology.

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Good observation. Trump, Bolsonaro, and many in their bases seem to think of themselves as experts in pharmacology. It's called the Dunning Kruger effect. I am an expert on pharmacology. I spent a decade of my life just on the education for it. There are folks who genuinely think their time watching conservative pundits and reading Facebook posts and Wikipedia is equivalent. I don't bother spending time refuting them, as that would be futile. Anyone on this site wanting to learn should invest some of their time reading the posts from Stanfordella. She has the wisdom to learn from those who actually are experts, and does an exquisite job in her presentation and analysis. My wife and I follow her on social media site for scientists and researchers. She just posted a paper on hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine propaganda and misinformation. It is impeccable. Her writings here are special because she condenses the information into posts that are easy for laypeople to read and enjoy.

Allandavid said:

Ella vs Bobber...

Gee....where should I put my money...?

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Ella's writing is worth its weight in gold. Her suffer no fools gladly attitude is priceless. My wife isn't a member here but has been coming only to search out and read Ella's posts. She's been on the front lines of this pandemic since January. It's encouraging and relaxing to her to read Ella's posts. This is a future leader in the making and that is reassuring. She made me log in to find out why her picture is now gone and is disappointed to learn that she closed her account. We hope she comes back.

Neal82 said:

Ella's writing is worth its weight in gold. Her suffer no fools gladly attitude is priceless. My wife isn't a member here but has been coming only to search out and read Ella's posts. She's been on the front lines of this pandemic since January. It's encouraging and relaxing to her to read Ella's posts. This is a future leader in the making and that is reassuring. She made me log in to find out why her picture is now gone and is disappointed to learn that she closed her account. We hope she comes back.

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I took a screenshot of this & am texting it to her.