Purveyor of Confusion

Loversofjesus_2018 · Apr 20, 2020

dcalling said:
There is not a specific number, it is all about heart and spirit. For example if you are a thief, and you got touched by God, even if you still steals, the holy spirit will remind you silently, and you will feel it, and eventually the Holy spirit will win you over, and you will stop stealing.

However false conversions are possible, someone may looks like they love God, but are actually not touched by spirit, and they eventually turn away. No one knows other people's faith, it is between that person and God, so don't judge.

I can say for sure that once God touched a soul, God will have such a firm claim on that soul, nothing can separate that soul from God, because you know what true Love is and nothing in this world can replace that

Would it also be true that people who aren’t willing to believe right now because they see inconsistencies or just flat don’t trust the history given could still be saved? Therefore it’s wrong to judge them as non believers as well since they never got a real chance due to a lack of trust for the information given to them?... I ask this because some people have a real issue trusting that history is accurate and some people may be skeptical about historic claims altogether not just about religion but other things as well. This is why I do think it’s possible to be a sincere skeptic. Such a person is maybe unwilling to be persuaded by claims that they can’t verify for themself.

cvanwey · Apr 20, 2020

dcalling said:
If you truly believe, and repent, it is enough. Note you must believe and love the word of God (i.e. no idol worshiping, don't use God's name in vain, respect your parents, no stealing, no adultery, no murder, no envy, love your neighbor, pray for your enemies etc). Vishnu does not have those commandments. All other religion only has some partial commandments.

Your answer conflicts upon itself. You still have not expressed how much belief, how much love, and how much repentance is enough? You will fall short. Is the rest protected by His grace? If so, where does the grace start, and the worship/repentance end? And if you are going to say that God judged your heart, then the sin becomes irrelevant anyways, as it has nothing to do with your acts. All true believers will still sin. In which case, mentioning to keep all other Commandments become superfluous.

Your answer still conflicts upon itself. I can believe and love, basically at any level, but the human is not perfect. Many will still commit adultery, steal, trespass, etc., regardless of the love and belief for their deity, as humans are said to be flawed. The love and belief in a deity will not stop these things. So, how many of these Commandments do you need to keep, and how many will God forgive? And if He forgives all, and all that matters is belief and love, then morals are irrelevant to begin with apparently anyways. Unless you want to argue that not believing is 'immoral'? Furthermore, is a true death-bed conversion 'better' than someone whom believes for 50 years, follows the Commandments to the best of their abilities, but then has doubt, or a lack in belief, a month before they die?

Your answer still conflicts upon itself. God states blasphemy is unforgivable, as you stated 'taking God's name in vein'. Hence, this would negate all other claims; especially that belief and love are all that are necessary.

dcalling said:
Very easy about work, no work is required, all you need to do is Faith in God, however your Faith in God is provided by God's grace.

Then again, 'morals' are arbitrary. Again, unless want to demonstrate how not believing in something is 'immoral.' So please stop stating, as you did above, to follow the Commandments.

dcalling said:
Yes God will accept me into heaven. The criteria is clearly stated in the Bible. You truely believe in the word of God and you will be saved. But make sure you believe the right word, i.e. the word of Vishnu is not the word of God.

Just for starters, this conflicts...

Matthew 25:31-46 He seems pretty clear that He separates by one's works, and not their faith. So how many works are acceptable? Seems curious, in regards to something as crucial like the tenets of salvation especially, God would fail to mention what you have proclaimed as well (i.e.) true belief. He begins and end with their works. No footnote or mention of belief.

Begs the question.. Was God being ambiguous here, in the sense that He mentions nothing of how devoutly you believe, or, is faith not the front-runner requirement for salvation? Which verse do you place secondary, this one, or Romans 10:9-10?

dcalling · Apr 20, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Would it also be true that people who aren’t willing to believe right now because they see inconsistencies or just flat don’t trust the history given could still be saved? Therefore it’s wrong to judge them as non believers as well since they never got a real chance due to a lack of trust for the information given to them?... I ask this because some people have a real issue trusting that history is accurate and some people may be skeptical about historic claims altogether not just about religion but other things as well. This is why I do think it’s possible to be a sincere skeptic. Such a person is maybe unwilling to be persuaded by claims that they can’t verify for themself.

You never know. Before God open someone's eyes they are blind. Me for example, years after I believed there is something supernatural (mainly because I am a software engineer and I eventually reach the conclusion self awareness can't be programmed), I had to research to other religions, till one day another brother's word touched me, and it all became clear.

We will never be able to research all God's designs, we are too limited. We can only preach the word, and pray for the spirit of God to open other's eyes.

cvanwey · Apr 20, 2020

dcalling said:
There is not a specific number, it is all about heart and spirit. For example if you are a thief, and you got touched by God, even if you still steals, the holy spirit will remind you silently, and you will feel it, and eventually the Holy spirit will win you over, and you will stop stealing.

Even professed true believers sin, no matter what. In some places, this is why the Bible will state 'grace.' Meaning, He forgives you anyways. He paid for your past and future sins. He came to save you for your sinful nature, by sacrificing Himself. Thus, according to your model, sin is still arbitrary now. You sin, no matter what. And I trust we can agree that belief is neither moral nor immoral, but instead, amoral??? So again, according to your conclusion, morals are basically arbitrary.

dcalling said:
However false conversions are possible, someone may looks like they love God, but are actually not touched by spirit, and they eventually turn away. No one knows other people's faith, it is between that person and God, so don't judge.

But God does provide a 'judging mechanism'. And it involved Luke 14:25-33, just for starters. How do you know you are exempt from this method of judgement? Why do you feel belief is more important, in contrast to this criteria, or maybe, Matthew 25:31-46?

dcalling said:
I can say for sure that once God touched a soul, God will have such a firm claim on that soul, nothing can separate that soul from God, because you know what true Love is and nothing in this world can replace that

This raises yet another contradiction. Again, even true lovers of God will sin. And yet, you stated to keep the Commandments. If what you now state is true, that nothing can separate, then again, sin is further irrelevant. But then you would also need to ignore the verses regarding blasphemy. And as you know, anyone can have a bad day. Sometimes we take it out directly on the ones we love the most.

dcalling · Apr 20, 2020

cvanwey said:
Your answer conflicts upon itself. You still have not expressed how much belief, how much love, and how much repentance is enough? You will fall short. Is the rest protected by His grace? If so, where does the grace start, and the worship/repentance end? And if you are going to say that God judged your heart, then the sin becomes irrelevant anyways, as it has nothing to do with your acts. All true believers will still sin. In which case, mentioning to keep all other Commandments become superfluous.

Show me where the conflict is? Just because you don't understand my answer (or my answer is not clear), does not make it self conflict

. So "fall short" is more accurate.

First, let me make it clear that I am too simple to understand how God operates, this is just my understanding and my believe after read the Bible.

It is my understand that God's grace extend to those who He choose. Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And you are correct, all humans are sinners, even Christians. The only difference is Christian know they are sinners and repent. I am a sinner, and I sin, and it is clear from the Bible that all has fall short of God's law. But we do try to obey the commandments (repent), and we know that we can only be saved through Jesus by accept His sacrifice.

cvanwey said:
Your answer still conflicts upon itself. I can believe and love, basically at any level, but the human is not perfect. Many will still commit adultery, steal, trespass, etc., regardless of the love and belief for their deity, as humans are said to be flawed. The love and belief in a deity will not stop these things. So, how many of these Commandments do you need to keep, and how many will God forgive? And if He forgives all, and all that matters is belief and love, then morals are irrelevant to begin with apparently anyways. Unless you want to argue that not believing is 'immoral'? Furthermore, is a true death-bed conversion 'better' than someone whom believes for 50 years, follows the Commandments to the best of their abilities, but then has doubt, or a lack in belief, a month before they die?

See my answer above. The theif who died with Jesus and repented (death bed conversion), Jesus told him he will be in heaven with Him.
As to "better", here is answer from Gospel, 1 Corinthians
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

cvanwey said:
Your answer still conflicts upon itself. God states blasphemy is unforgivable, as you stated 'taking God's name in vein'. Hence, this would negate all other claims; especially that belief and love are all that are necessary.

You need to read the original statements: Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven

So only blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiven. What I believe is, if a person's eyes is opened by Holy spirit, knows the truth, and yet rebelled (i.e. Satan), that is not forgiven.

cvanwey said:
Then again, 'morals' are arbitrary. Again, unless want to demonstrate how not believing in something is 'immoral.' So please stop stating, as you did above, to follow the Commandments.

Just for starters, this conflicts...

Matthew 25:31-46 He seems pretty clear that He separates by one's works, and not their faith. So how many works are acceptable? Seems curious, in regards to something as crucial like the tenets of salvation especially, God would fail to mention what you have proclaimed as well (i.e.) true belief. He begins and end with their works. No footnote or mention of belief.

Begs the question.. Was God being ambiguous here, in the sense that He mentions nothing of how devoutly you believe, or, is faith not the front-runner requirement for salvation? Which verse do you place secondary, this one, or Romans 10:9-10?

Those are parables, not commandments. It shows what a true believe will do, as Paul also said faith without works (i.e. you claim you believe but you still keep on enjoy sinning) is dead, is fake faith. I can clearly feel that after I believed, my life changed. Some might be saved and still do the same, but that is between that person and God, I can't judge.

Edit: this post also answers your question above.

Loversofjesus_2018 · Apr 20, 2020

dcalling said:
Show me where the conflict is? Just because you don't understand my answer (or my answer is not clear), does not make it self conflict . So "fall short" is more accurate.

First, let me make it clear that I am too simple to understand how God operates, this is just my understanding and my believe after read the Bible.

It is my understand that God's grace extend to those who He choose. Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And you are correct, all humans are sinners, even Christians. The only difference is Christian know they are sinners and repent. I am a sinner, and I sin, and it is clear from the Bible that all has fall short of God's law. But we do try to obey the commandments (repent), and we know that we can only be saved through Jesus by accept His sacrifice.

See my answer above. The theif who died with Jesus and repented (death bed conversion), Jesus told him he will be in heaven with Him.
As to "better", here is answer from Gospel, 1 Corinthians
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

You need to read the original statements: Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven

So only blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiven. What I believe is, if a person's eyes is opened by Holy spirit, knows the truth, and yet rebelled (i.e. Satan), that is not forgiven.

Those are parables, not commandments. It shows what a true believe will do, as Paul also said faith without works (i.e. you claim you believe but you still keep on enjoy sinning) is dead, is fake faith. I can clearly feel that after I believed, my life changed. Some might be saved and still do the same, but that is between that person and God, I can't judge.

Edit: this post also answers your question above.

Ok now wait a second, I had to stop at the part where you said God picks and chooses. Do you think God predestined some to eternity away from him and some to be with him?

Loversofjesus_2018 · Apr 20, 2020

dcalling said:
Show me where the conflict is? Just because you don't understand my answer (or my answer is not clear), does not make it self conflict . So "fall short" is more accurate.

First, let me make it clear that I am too simple to understand how God operates, this is just my understanding and my believe after read the Bible.

It is my understand that God's grace extend to those who He choose. Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And you are correct, all humans are sinners, even Christians. The only difference is Christian know they are sinners and repent. I am a sinner, and I sin, and it is clear from the Bible that all has fall short of God's law. But we do try to obey the commandments (repent), and we know that we can only be saved through Jesus by accept His sacrifice.

See my answer above. The theif who died with Jesus and repented (death bed conversion), Jesus told him he will be in heaven with Him.
As to "better", here is answer from Gospel, 1 Corinthians
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

You need to read the original statements: Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven

So only blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiven. What I believe is, if a person's eyes is opened by Holy spirit, knows the truth, and yet rebelled (i.e. Satan), that is not forgiven.

Those are parables, not commandments. It shows what a true believe will do, as Paul also said faith without works (i.e. you claim you believe but you still keep on enjoy sinning) is dead, is fake faith. I can clearly feel that after I believed, my life changed. Some might be saved and still do the same, but that is between that person and God, I can't judge.

Edit: this post also answers your question above.

I do understand how a person could read some of this and decide that sin is Irrelevant because if everyone does it and there is no criteria as to what amount is over the limit then that just places everyone in the same boat deciding through there own conscience if they are still right with God or not. If we have a belief system it simply doesn’t seem logical to think it can be a free for all where people get to fill in the blanks with their own thoughts and opinions as they choose. It also doesn’t seem right to explain things away by saying this is what most Christians believe. If there is a belief system based on scripture it is 100% irrelevant what each individual believes and only matters what scripture says. If scripture isn’t 100% clear then what gives believers(groups or individuals) the right to fill in the blanks? It seems it would be only right to simply admit they have no answer because scripture doesn’t say as opposed to trying to put a bunch of stuff together as a “best explanation”. I’ve watched pretty popular apologist I think they are say things like”it’s more plausible that this is the answer”... being more plausible doesn’t mean something is true.

cvanwey · Apr 20, 2020

dcalling said:
Show me where the conflict is?

Right here:

You still have not expressed how much belief, how much love, and how much repentance is enough? You will fall short. Is the rest protected by His grace? If so, where does the grace start, and the worship/repentance end? And if you are going to say that God judged your heart, then the sin becomes irrelevant anyways, as it has nothing to do with your acts. All true believers will still sin. In which case, mentioning to keep all other Commandments becomes superfluous."

dcalling said:
It is my understand that God's grace extend to those who He choose. Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Yet, another contradiction. Then not only are 'morals' arbitrary, but we do not even have free will to boot. Instead, God chooses, in spite of our 'morals', character, intent, actions, etc... And if you are going to say He only hardens the ones He already knew are against Him, then that would basically be a tautology; in that God condemns the ones which ultimately are not going to follow anyways.

dcalling said:
And you are correct, all humans are sinners, even Christians. The only difference is Christian know they are sinners and repent. I am a sinner, and I sin, and it is clear from the Bible that all has fall short of God's law. But we do try to obey the commandments (repent), and we know that we can only be saved through Jesus by accept His sacrifice.

My point here is that, under your model, the repentance is arbitrary. You stated that 1) nothing can separate, if God chooses them - so repentance would not matter in this case. Further, 2) it's likely, that at some point, the human is not going to repent for every last sin, before they die. Hence, some sins are left not repented upon anyways. And 3), you will still 'sin', which is against God's wishes, (whether you are a Christian or not).

dcalling said:
See my answer above. The theif who died with Jesus and repented (death bed conversion), Jesus told him he will be in heaven with Him.
As to "better", here is answer from Gospel, 1 Corinthians
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Again, you just further demonstrated conflict. If all it takes is to believe and accept the correct God at your day's demise, then morals are again arbitrary.

dcalling said:
You need to read the original statements: Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven

The part in red is effectively states, that it is "my way or the high way."

The part in black, looks like we have a conflict...? Here is the verse I get, according to the NIV:

31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Or how about the KJV?

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Or maybe the CSB?

31 Therefore, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Furthermore, CF defines 'blasphemy' as:

Blasphemy
In the interests of informed debate, members will not speak in a disrespectful way of the Christian God, the Trinity, or the Holy Scriptures (The Bible). A similar respect is expected towards the faith and sacred texts of other religions. Expressing disbelief in God is acceptable, referring to Him as a 'fairy tale' or a 'narcissistic god', or making a comment such as 'god throws a childish tantrum', is not acceptable.

If you call God a name, you could be banished forever, no matter what. Unless you now wish to ignore the 3 passages? Which further demonstrates conflict, as you stated prior, that all you need is belief, love, repentance, etc....

dcalling said:
Those are parables, not commandments. It shows what a true believe will do, as Paul also said faith without works (i.e. you claim you believe but you still keep on enjoy sinning) is dead, is fake faith. I can clearly feel that after I believed, my life changed. Some might be saved and still do the same, but that is between that person and God, I can't judge.

Edit: this post also answers your question above.

I don't doubt your demeanor changed, after believing. But how do you know this parable is [less important] that Romans 10:9-10? How do you know this does not apply directly to you? How do you know that His criteria will not just merely be your belief, intent, and repentance; but instead, more-so on how much you helped others????

thomas_t · Apr 22, 2020

cvanwey said:
Yet, another contradiction.

first off, let me thank you for reactin peacefully to all the insinuations and personal attacks against you.
You shoulod be an example for us how to deal with these sorts of fouls.
You are enriching this section. Definitively.

But on the subject level, I agree with the posters on the Christian side here, @dcalling had a great point explaining that, apparently, it doesn't take evidence for you to be convinced that life first formed spontaniously in the wild? With no evidence at all.
These are the goal posts for how many bits of evidence God will be giving you for his own existence, I think.
If you believe this story then you could also believe in Him, even if you don't see evidence for Him either.
Moreover, the moment you believe the "life formed by accident"-story... you can't give thanks to God anymore.
Imagine you are invited and your hosts give you the best food to eat. Then you come up claiming... "oh great... the food formed by accident!"
I simplifying the analogy here. I know it is more complex what scientists claim. But at the end of the day,... you don't give thanks to God despite the fact that it is his sun that makes you happy these days, I think.
So.. you could ask God for forgiveness for you being blunt against him and add to your prayer "in case you exist, God!"?

I agree with the other posters from the Christian side that faith alone is enough. The moment salvation is granted, this is called grace. Thus: by faith alone (from the perspective of the believer) and by grace alone (from God's perspective).
No works required. If God would give you a sandwich just for you believing him, it would be grace alone that motivates God to do so... but you would have earned your sandwich by faith alone. Regardless of what you have done before.
So now you claim that Matthew 25:31 - the sheep and the goat judgement - says otherwise.
Granted ... at first sight it might seem a little odd that this passage which covers salvation... leaves out the faith.

However, God is a living person. He sees that on earth, if invited for dinner somewhere... people offer each other their help. With the dishes or whatever. It would be rude to show up at the invitation with the attitude of strictly doing nothing even if the hosts disappear with the dirty dishes in their hands.

Similarly, if God sees that some people would do nothing after getting saved... it might happen that God won't grant his faith to these sorts of people to begin with.
So... God guarantees that no contrdiction will be found in practice. He is a living being and sees what happens.
Even if in theory you could find what you call a "contradiction".

Now you would state that you would help. Naturally. You just happen to be void of faith despite your kind attitude.
well, I didn't focus on you personally in my rebuttal. There can be other reasons for why you don't have faith.
I just wanted to show why there is no contradiction.
The whole Bible is written on the basis of comunication between God and man. Once God notices there could be a contradiction, he quickly arranges things in a way there won't be any (this is just my personal theology, many Christians might disagree. However, it is a way of showing how the Bible can be contradictionless)
Concerning the people who end up doing good works after their salvation... the proposition by faith alone still stands. The works they did before their salvation did nothing to contribute to them being saved.
I also agree with dcalling, that rich means what it means in society - there is no hidden talk in the Bible like "rich" meaning "poor" in reality and other twisted meanings maybe.
God wrote his Bible to be understood.

John Helpher · Apr 22, 2020

thomas_t said:
So now you claim that Matthew 25:31 - the sheep and the goat judgement - says otherwise.
Granted ... at first sight it might seem a little odd that this passage which covers salvation... leaves out the faith.

It doesn't leave out faith. This is the problem with both cvanwey's approach and your approach; it's a legalistic interpretation. If the verse doesn't include the word "faith" then you become confused or think that faith is somehow left out. .

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin; you cannot find one without the other. There are examples of people who make a big show of their charity-giving, but we would not say that this work is a reflection of faith because the motivation is wrong.

In the Matthew 25 parable the sheep were only saved because they showed love. The goats were cursed because they did not show love; very simple.

This is why Jesus' comment that he is the way, the truth, and the life is so often misinterpreted to mean that saying the name "Jesus" acts like a kind of membership card; just say the name and you're all good. But that's not what he was saying at all, because Jesus is more than just a name or a free ticket to heaven. He is a way of life. He and his teachings are one and the same and his teachings are a set of principles and values which we are meant to practice and live by day-to-day.

For example, Jesus said that we should love our neighbor. This is the way of Jesus. If there is a person who has never heard of the name Jesus, yet still shows love to his neighbor, then he is still following "the way" of Jesus. His behavior demonstrates his faith without any need to make bold claims about it.

How different it is for most professing Christians today who have twisted God's grace into an excuse to not practice the teachings of Jesus. Jesus says, "If you love me, you will obey me" and the professing Christians of today say, "No, it is because God loves us that we do not need to obey". It's a disgusting distortion of grace, that you could use God's love as a justification for rebellion against obedience to Jesus.

Loversofjesus_2018 · Apr 22, 2020

thomas_t said:
first off, let me thank you for reactin peacefully to all the insinuations and personal attacks against you.
You shoulod be an example for us how to deal with these sorts of fouls.
You are enriching this section. Definitively.

But on the subject level, I agree with the posters on the Christian side here, @dcalling had a great point explaining that, apparently, it doesn't take evidence for you to be convinced that life first formed spontaniously in the wild? With no evidence at all.
These are the goal posts for how many bits of evidence God will be giving you for his own existence, I think.
If you believe this story then you could also believe in Him, even if you don't see evidence for Him either.
Moreover, the moment you believe the "life formed by accident"-story... you can't give thanks to God anymore.
Imagine you are invited and your hosts give you the best food to eat. Then you come up claiming... "oh great... the food formed by accident!"
I simplifying the analogy here. I know it is more complex what scientists claim. But at the end of the day,... you don't give thanks to God despite the fact that it is his sun that makes you happy these days, I think.
So.. you could ask God for forgiveness for you being blunt against him and add to your prayer "in case you exist, God!"?

I agree with the other posters from the Christian side that faith alone is enough. The moment salvation is granted, this is called grace. Thus: by faith alone (from the perspective of the believer) and by grace alone (from God's perspective).
No works required. If God would give you a sandwich just for you believing him, it would be grace alone that motivates God to do so... but you would have earned your sandwich by faith alone. Regardless of what you have done before.
So now you claim that Matthew 25:31 - the sheep and the goat judgement - says otherwise.
Granted ... at first sight it might seem a little odd that this passage which covers salvation... leaves out the faith.

However, God is a living person. He sees that on earth, if invited for dinner somewhere... people offer each other their help. With the dishes or whatever. It would be rude to show up at the invitation with the attitude of strictly doing nothing even if the hosts disappear with the dirty dishes in their hands.

Similarly, if God sees that some people would do nothing after getting saved... it might happen that God won't grant his faith to these sorts of people to begin with.
So... God guarantees that no contrdiction will be found in practice. He is a living being and sees what happens.
Even if in theory you could find what you call a "contradiction".

Now you would state that you would help. Naturally. You just happen to be void of faith despite your kind attitude.
well, I didn't focus on you personally in my rebuttal. There can be other reasons for why you don't have faith.
I just wanted to show why there is no contradiction.
The whole Bible is written on the basis of comunication between God and man. Once God notices there could be a contradiction, he quickly arranges things in a way there won't be any (this is just my personal theology, many Christians might disagree. However, it is a way of showing how the Bible can be contradictionless)
Concerning the people who end up doing good works after their salvation... the proposition by faith alone still stands. The works they did before their salvation did nothing to contribute to them being saved.
I also agree with dcalling, that rich means what it means in society - there is no hidden talk in the Bible like "rich" meaning "poor" in reality and other twisted meanings maybe.
God wrote his Bible to be understood.

I think that was well thought out but I actually have some questions about this also. I think there seems to be a constant theme that everyone is inserting there own thoughts and opinions and at the same time saying scripture is written to be understood. You just said that’s your personal theology and many Christians might disagree. This right here is a glaring problem. What gives you or anybody else the right to create their own theology? Wouldn’t the reason you are creating your own because scripture isn’t clear in some areas?

dcalling · Apr 22, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Ok now wait a second, I had to stop at the part where you said God picks and chooses. Do you think God predestined some to eternity away from him and some to be with him?

Yes, that is my understanding.

Romans 9
18 So God does what he wants to do. He shows mercy to one person and makes another stubborn.

19 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still blame us? Who can oppose what he wants to do?” 20 But you are a mere human being. So who are you to talk back to God? Scripture says, “Can what is made say to the one who made it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” (Isaiah 29:16; 45:9)

Loversofjesus_2018 · Apr 22, 2020

John Helpher said:
It doesn't leave out faith. This is the problem with both cvanwey's approach and your approach; it's a legalistic interpretation. If the verse doesn't include the word "faith" then you become confused or think that faith is somehow left out. .

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin; you cannot find one without the other. There are examples of people who make a big show of their charity-giving, but we would not say that this work is a reflection of faith because the motivation is wrong.

In the Matthew 25 parable the sheep were only saved because they showed love. The goats were cursed because they did not show love; very simple.

This is why Jesus' comment that he is the way, the truth, and the life is so often misinterpreted to mean that saying the name "Jesus" acts like a kind of membership card; just say the name and you're all good. But that's not what he was saying at all, because Jesus is more than just a name or a free ticket to heaven. He is a way of life. He and his teachings are one and the same and his teachings are a set of principles and values which we are meant to practice and live by day-to-day.

For example, Jesus said that we should love our neighbor. This is the way of Jesus. If there is a person who has never heard of the name Jesus, yet still shows love to his neighbor, then he is still following "the way" of Jesus. His behavior demonstrates his faith without any need to make bold claims about it.

How different it is for most professing Christians today who have twisted God's grace into an excuse to not practice the teachings of Jesus. Jesus says, "If you love me, you will obey me" and the professing Christians of today say, "No, it is because God loves us that we do not need to obey". It's a disgusting distortion of grace, that you could use God's love as a justification for rebellion against obedience to Jesus.

But people are not obeying right? People fall short and that’s why repentance is needed according to scripture. But Jesus said obey. Now we can say “well what Jesus meant was such and such”but now we’re just making our stuff up. We don’t know if he meant what we are saying he meant at all. It just “seems” to fit better than to think he actually meant whet he said which was to obey. Someone who breaks the rules sometimes and still claim to be obedient is not being sincere. They are not an obedient person if they break the rules here and there. They are obedient sometimes or most of the time. Jesus didn’t say be obedient sometimes he simply said if you don’t obey him you don’t love him. We make up the rest ourself to fit how we want and in what way seems best to us. Or we take a popular interpretation and go with that one. Why do we do this?

Loversofjesus_2018 · Apr 22, 2020

dcalling said:
Yes, that is my understanding.

Romans 9
18 So God does what he wants to do. He shows mercy to one person and makes another stubborn.

19 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still blame us? Who can oppose what he wants to do?” 20 But you are a mere human being. So who are you to talk back to God? Scripture says, “Can what is made say to the one who made it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” (Isaiah 29:16; 45:9)

Yikes

dcalling · Apr 22, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
I do understand how a person could read some of this and decide that sin is Irrelevant because if everyone does it and there is no criteria as to what amount is over the limit then that just places everyone in the same boat deciding through there own conscience if they are still right with God or not. If we have a belief system it simply doesn’t seem logical to think it can be a free for all where people get to fill in the blanks with their own thoughts and opinions as they choose. It also doesn’t seem right to explain things away by saying this is what most Christians believe. If there is a belief system based on scripture it is 100% irrelevant what each individual believes and only matters what scripture says. If scripture isn’t 100% clear then what gives believers(groups or individuals) the right to fill in the blanks? It seems it would be only right to simply admit they have no answer because scripture doesn’t say as opposed to trying to put a bunch of stuff together as a “best explanation”. I’ve watched pretty popular apologist I think they are say things like”it’s more plausible that this is the answer”... being more plausible doesn’t mean something is true.

We can't understand the whole of God, that is why on some part we have to guess. But the basics it the same, you can't get away from the basics.

A analogy of it is, mathematics is the basics of everything, so the calculations has to be correct, but somethings we can't fully understand, for example the details of Quantum physics, that we defer to theories.

Loversofjesus_2018 · Apr 22, 2020

dcalling said:
We can't understand the whole of God, that is why on some part we have to guess. But the basics it the same, you can't get away from the basics.

A analogy of it is, mathematics is the basics of everything, so the calculations has to be correct, but somethings we can't fully understand, for example the details of Quantum physics, that we defer to theories.

If we are forced to guess isn’t that a problem? You don’t see how a person who isn’t a believer could have a hard time believing when they find out they have to guess in some areas when it comes to God’s word in which their eternal destiny rests on getting it correctly?

thomas_t · Apr 22, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Wouldn’t the reason you are creating your own because scripture isn’t clear in some areas?

I only ponder about it because @cvanwey asked. well he didn't ask but brought a message across stating that there are purportedly some "contradictions" as he calls it.
I think, concerning the specialities it's clear that there might be some differences in opinion. When the topic is not important [for us believers], then why not allow differences in opinion?
The important thing is: once you convert, you are saved. Why bother about the rest?
My theology was called legalistic by @John Helpher.
Might be, but I'm not interested in it. I was just making it up to demonstrate there is at least one way to reconcile what C calls "contradiction".
I think Bible is structured like this:
Claritity where clarity is needed..
lack of clarity in the areas where only atheists have problems with...

.
Thinking too much about issues like this... only drives you away from repenting and starting to actually do something to demonstrate your own faith, I'm afraid.

dcalling · Apr 22, 2020

cvanwey said:
Right here:

You still have not expressed how much belief, how much love, and how much repentance is enough? You will fall short. Is the rest protected by His grace? If so, where does the grace start, and the worship/repentance end? And if you are going to say that God judged your heart, then the sin becomes irrelevant anyways, as it has nothing to do with your acts. All true believers will still sin. In which case, mentioning to keep all other Commandments becomes superfluous."

Repentance is a 1 or 0 question, not a degree question. You either repented or not.

And God's grace extend to all he wants to extend to.

And you are right, sin has nothing to do with actions, but in the heart, as Jesus said if you hate your brother, that is murder.

And I have said again and again, no one can keep the commandments. It is just a ruler that show how we are all sinners.

cvanwey said:
Yet, another contradiction. Then not only are 'morals' arbitrary, but we do not even have free will to boot. Instead, God chooses, in spite of our 'morals', character, intent, actions, etc... And if you are going to say He only hardens the ones He already knew are against Him, then that would basically be a tautology; in that God condemns the ones which ultimately are not going to follow anyways.

What's the contradiction? You need to use your word correctly. Is it contradiction or just you are not sure or me fall short of my explaining? Did my answers above (part 1) make it clear?

cvanwey said:
My point here is that, under your model, the repentance is arbitrary. You stated that 1) nothing can separate, if God chooses them - so repentance would not matter in this case. Further, 2) it's likely, that at some point, the human is not going to repent for every last sin, before they die. Hence, some sins are left not repented upon anyways. And 3), you will still 'sin', which is against God's wishes, (whether you are a Christian or not).

1. Need you to explain what you mean by nothing can separate.
2. Humans don't need to repent for each and ever sin, as some sin they will not even know are sins. They only need to repent, that knows they are sinners and know they need to repent, and repent for all possible sins in their heart.

cvanwey said:
Again, you just further demonstrated conflict. If all it takes is to believe and accept the correct God at your day's demise, then morals are again arbitrary.

Show me the conflict.

cvanwey said:
The part in red is effectively states, that it is "my way or the high way."

Correct, it is my understanding God is the creator, this is HisStory. The whole world as we know is just a big play directed by God (or a huge simulation in Matrix terms)

cvanwey said:
The part in black, looks like we have a conflict...? Here is the verse I get, according to the NIV:

cvanwey said:
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Or how about the KJV?

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Or maybe the CSB?

31 Therefore, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Furthermore, CF defines 'blasphemy' as:

Blasphemy
In the interests of informed debate, members will not speak in a disrespectful way of the Christian God, the Trinity, or the Holy Scriptures (The Bible). A similar respect is expected towards the faith and sacred texts of other religions. Expressing disbelief in God is acceptable, referring to Him as a 'fairy tale' or a 'narcissistic god', or making a comment such as 'god throws a childish tantrum', is not acceptable.

If you call God a name, you could be banished forever, no matter what. Unless you now wish to ignore the 3 passages? Which further demonstrates conflict, as you stated prior, that all you need is belief, love, repentance, etc....

That is the CF definition of blasphemy. If you think it conflicts with the Bible it is fine.

cvanwey said:
I don't doubt your demeanor changed, after believing. But how do you know this parable is [less important] that Romans 10:9-10? How do you know this does not apply directly to you? How do you know that His criteria will not just merely be your belief, intent, and repentance; but instead, more-so on how much you helped others????

They are equally important. They do apply to me. After you are touched by God, the holy spirit will compulse you to do what ever God commanded. If God give you the chance to do that is another matter. Remember from our discussion from above, God judges you by your heart, so if you have not repented, and just doing those things to get in heaven, you will be rejected. It is not what you do, but what's in your heart that matters.

John Helpher · Apr 22, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
We make up the rest ourself to fit how we want and in what way seems best to us. Or we take a popular interpretation and go with that one. Why do we do this?

Well, some people make up alternatives to what Jesus said, but we're not totally clueless. For example, when Jesus said, "Anyone who wants to follow me must forsake all he has", we can see how Jesus meant this teaching to be applied by the example of the disciples. Luke 5:11 , Luke 5:28 , Matthew 4:19-22 , Luke 18:28 , Acts 2:44-45 , Acts 4:34-35 .

While the teachings of Jesus are clearly presented as commands, Jesus said that his teachings are also spirit (John 6:63). When we talk about "getting the spirit" of something, we mean getting the essence of his teaching. We should obey Jesus just because he said we should obey, but after that, after trying his teachings we should no longer need the command. We should continue obeying Jesus because his teachings demonstrate how to express love for God and our neighbor.

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
But people are not obeying right?

Most are not. The question will always be, why are they not obeying. When Jesus told his followers that they cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other, he said it would be a lack of faith that would stop people from working for love.

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
People fall short and that’s why repentance is needed according to scripture.

Yes, this is what so many people become confused about. God offers grace and the people convince themselves that if God is just going to forgive them anyway, why bother trying at all? In fact, (they reason), perhaps it frustrates God's grace to even try to obey Jesus, that obedience to Jesus could be like a way of saying to God, "We won't obey you because such obedience will demonstrate that we believe we don't need your grace". This is a distortion of grace; it is a lie which appeals to people who do not want to change their lives to conform to God's values and standards.

Grace is there because God knows, as we try to obey him, that we will fall short. Grace becomes obsolete without failure, and failure won't be there if we don't even try. I can't fail at winning a game of chess if I never even start the game. This is the sad trick that such grace-mongerers play on themselves; they think God will forgive them for doing nothing.

dcalling · Apr 22, 2020

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
If we are forced to guess isn’t that a problem? You don’t see how a person who isn’t a believer could have a hard time believing when they find out they have to guess in some areas when it comes to God’s word in which their eternal destiny rests on getting it correctly?

Don't Yiks God, He is the creator and He is smarter than all of us

(this is to your other post)

People will never need to second guess the truly important questions, as God promised eternal destiny in clear messages.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Eph2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

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