for atheists

dogs4thewin said:

Everyone has faith people say they do not but they do.

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Sure, but I'm betting that when I say I have faith in something or someone it's different than when you say you have faith in a god. But, more important are the aspects of our definitions that are the same. Where they overlap.

And honestly, I can't really think of a single thing or person that I have absolute faith in. I am always aware, maybe even on a subconscious level in some situations that the thing in which I hold faith could fail me.

dogs4thewin said:

but you have it and people say they do not.

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okay... ?

dogs4thewin said:

but you have seen reasons to believe otherwise?

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Belief should not come until after sufficient evidence has been produced. Assuming that you are talking about belief in the Christian God by your standards you should probably also believe in Hinduism, Islam, and all other religions. If you want to know why specific gods are rejected this should be moved to apologetics.

And like others I agree with Matt Dilahunty's quoted response.

dogs4thewin said:

The Christian God THE God.

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What evidence is there for that?

I've thought about this a couple of times. My pocket answer is that an omniscient, omnipotent deity would surely know what evidence would convince me of its existence.

However, it's a big claim. So I'd want a strong set of confluent lines of supporting evidence.

One of my answers about what would make me accept the existence of a god was if there was an established body of evidence was as strong as that for any of the theories underpinning thesciences, like the Theory of Evolution, Germ Theory of Disease or Quantum Mechanics. I don't fully understand any of these, but they're sufficiently robust that I accept them.

The other answer is that it would take direct, unambiguous, regular divine intervention that was at least as strong as that presented in the Old Testament, plus the addition of modern recording devices as verification. If it was good enough for the ancient Israelites, why isn't it good enough now?

dogs4thewin said:

What, if anything would make you believe that God is or at least may be real?

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I'll tell you if it ever happens. It may be something completely mundane or it may be something huge and world-changing but until it happens I cannot say what it would be.

Matt Dillahunty's answer is a cop-out, as it ignores the possibility that the atheist is simply so closed-minded that no possible evidence would be sufficient for them.

Strathos said:

Matt Dillahunty's answer is a cop-out, as it ignores the possibility that the atheist is simply so closed-minded that no possible evidence would be sufficient for them.

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Seriously, no. Many atheists are ex-Christians like Dillahunty that did a very serious search for God before coming to the conclusion that there is no reliable evidence for any god.

Strathos said:

Matt Dillahunty's answer is a cop-out, as it ignores the possibility that the atheist is simply so closed-minded that no possible evidence would be sufficient for them.

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That would mean God is not omnipotent, so your argument is incorrect.

Subduction Zone said:

Seriously, no. Many atheists are ex-Christians like Dillahunty that did a very serious search for God before coming to the conclusion that there is no reliable evidence for any god.

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Some of the responses here that have actually given specific answers are better.

Bungle_Bear said:

That would mean God is not omnipotent, so your argument is incorrect.

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No it wouldn't. God could always simply force you to believe in Him, but that's not what is being asked. If no possible evidence could ever convince someone of something, then they obviously won't be convinced by any evidence.

Strathos said:

No it wouldn't. God could always simply force you to believe in Him, but that's not what is being asked. If no possible evidence could ever convince someone of something, then they obviously won't be convinced by any evidence.

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If there is something that is impossible for a being to do, then that being is not omnipotent. Thus removing one of the typical characteristics traditionally associated with the deity of monotheism.

Strathos said:

No it wouldn't. God could always simply force you to believe in Him, but that's not what is being asked. If no possible evidence could ever convince someone of something, then they obviously won't be convinced by any evidence.

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You're arguing that God could not convince somebody to believe, but he could force somebody to believe. That, again, is not omnipotent.

More to the point - the OP is not asking what evidence would be sufficient, it is asking what (if anything) would be sufficient.

Strathos said:

God could always simply force you to believe in Him, but that's not what is being asked.

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No force would be necessary. All he would have to do is show up. Why did the old testament Israelites get all the attention? Pillars of salt and fire. Wrath raining down on the wicked. Manna from Heaven. Plagues. Angels of Death. Visits in the lion's den. They got it all. They didn't need faith. They had hard evidence. That's all I'm asking for.

dogs4thewin said:

plenty to many people

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What I have come to realise is that athiests believe what they believe, want to. It is a matter of will, not the absence of knowledge. I think they know the Bible as much as we do, but they choose not to believe it, and no matter what evidence we may produce that would totally convince someone who wants to be assured that God is real; But in my experience, after all the evidence that we can produce, most of our atheist friends continue to argue against it, and one or two can become quite abusive when they run out of arguments. This is because the want to be atheists, and there is nothing we can do to change that. We cannot change their will in this matter. That's why I don't bother to argue with them any more.

Oscarr said:

What I have come to realise is that athiests believe what they believe, want to. It is a matter of will, not the absence of knowledge. I think they know the Bible as much as we do, but they choose not to believe it, and no matter what evidence we may produce that would totally convince someone who wants to be assured that God is real; But in my experience, after all the evidence that we can produce, most of our atheist friends continue to argue against it, and one or two can become quite abusive when they run out of arguments. This is because the want to be atheists, and there is nothing we can do to change that. We cannot change their will in this matter. That's why I don't bother to argue with them any more.

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Oh, the irony.

VirOptimus said:

Oh, the irony.

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I predicted this response.

Oscarr said:

I predicted this response.

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Sure you did.

Strathos said:

Some of the responses here that have actually given specific answers are better.

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Really? Considering how rude your claim was that anyone was polite was rather amazing. You do realize that you made a very flawed accusation, don't you?

No it wouldn't. God could always simply force you to believe in Him, but that's not what is being asked. If no possible evidence could ever convince someone of something, then they obviously won't be convinced by any evidence.

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And there you go with that false claim again. No atheist has ever said or even implied that they won't be convinced by any evidence. The problem is that no one seems to be able to present any reliable evidence. Since no one can seem to find valid evidence why don't you see if you can find some before jumping to faulty conclusions? Many Christians think that they have evidence, but all examples that I have seen have failed under rational analysis.