What is God's Role in the Current Pandemic?

Clizby WampusCat

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Yes, God can stop the diseases. Yes, He did create a world where sin and diseases can occur.

I would think you're a pretty terrible person.
Why do you have a double standard then? This is exactly what god does everyday.

Can you provide multiple examples of prophecies that are demonstrably false?
I gave one example here:

Egypt a Desolate Wasteland?

136 views and not one answer. I also referenced the prophecy against Tyre. These two have demonstrably failed.
 
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SPF

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Why do you have a double standard then? This is exactly what god does everyday.
I've addressed this before. Comparing yourself to God is a bit of a false analogy, I hope your are able to recognize that. The reason that God doesn't stop terrible things from happening is because for some reason that I don't understand, He thought that creating creatures with free will was valuable and worth it.

God, by His very nature is omniscient. Us, by our very nature, are not omniscient. We don't know what He knows, we don't see what He sees, we don't see the bigger picture like He does. It basically puts us in a position where we are incapable of judging God accurately.

Furthermore, if you actually played out what you're suggesting, you're really asking why God doesn't give us a perfect world today. "It would never be enough" is what comes to mind. For example, you like to choose child molestation, so we'll use that. Let's say that every time someone went to molest a child that God caused a bolt of lightning to randomly generate above the person and it struck them, rendering them injured, but not dead.

First off, just imagine a world that looked like that. It would be weird. What's more, it wouldn't bring comfort to people. It would make them question God even more. "Why just molestation!?" people would cry out. People would expect God to stop every kind of wrong. People would expect God to stop every natural disaster, etc etc...

God will provide a world without those things, but for some reason, a reason that I don't know and I can't explain, He has chosen to spend a few thousand years to get to that point.

In the 10th year of Ezekiel's captivity, January of 587 B.C., God gives him a prophecy of the downfall of Egypt. The timing here is significant, as this is the period during which Pharaoh Hophra's forces came up to oppose the Babylonians, causing the siege of Jerusalem to be temporarily lifted. In our next reading, we will go through another prophecy of Ezekiel-given a few months later-that alludes to the outcome of this particular conflict and describes the coming fall of Egypt to Babylon. The current reading concerns the latter aspect.

God refers to the Egyptian pharaoh as a great "monster" (NKJV) or "dragon" (KJV) in the midst of his "rivers," saying, "My River is my own" (verse 3). The major "River" of Egypt is of course the Nile-which represented the entire country of Egypt, as the population was concentrated along its length. The "rivers" (plural) likely denote the many branches of the Nile in the northern delta region. The word "monster" is translated from the Hebrew tannim. "The word's meanings and its cognates range from 'jackal' to 'serpent,' 'dragon,' 'sea-monster,' 'monster,' 'crocodile.' In all O[ld] T[estament] contexts where the term is used, a fearful creature is imagined" (Expositor's Bible Commentary, footnote on verse 3). The fearful dragonlike beast of the Nile and its branches-a river-dwelling creature with powerful jaws and thick scales (see verse 4)-is surely the crocodile. "The crocodile god, Sebek [or Sobek], was very important to the Egyptians in the Nile delta area. He was considered Egypt's protector and at times was identified with the solar deity, Re [or Ra] (cf. Diodorus 1.35)" (Expositor's, note on verses 1-7). Recall from Isaiah 30:7 and 51:9 that God referred to Egypt as a monster called "Rahab," meaning "Fierce" or "Violent"-parallel to the Egyptian name Sobek, meaning "Rager" (conjuring images of a fierce crocodile attack).

The pharaoh was identified with Egypt's divine protector. God says the pharaoh considers himself the creator of the Nile (verse 3), meaning, essentially, of all Egypt. Besides being a blasphemous concept of the pharaohs in general, as they promoted themselves as divine incarnations, "this was [a particularly apt description of] Hophra's (Apries') arrogant self-image. [The Greek historian] Herodotus implied that Pharaoh Apries was so strong in his position that he felt no god could dislodge him. In his reign he sent an expedition against Cyprus, besieged and took Gaza (cf. Jer 47:1) and the city of Sidon, was victorious against Tyre by sea, and considered himself master over Palestine and Phoenicia. Such pride was consistent with the denunciation in this message ([Ezekiel 29] v. 3), for the Pharaoh felt that the Nile (Egypt) belonged to him and that he had created it for himself. This arrogance had also shown itself in an attempt to interrupt Babylonia's siege of Jerusalem-an attempt thwarted by God" (note on verses 1-7).

God says He will draw the pharaonic crocodile out with hooks along with all the "fish" clinging to his scales, meaning the Egyptians in general who clung to or followed the pharaoh (verse 4). The pharaoh and his people would be pulled from their position of national strength and left "in the desert" as carrion for the birds and beasts (verse 5, NIV). The Egyptian ruler, at least in a figurative sense, "would not even be afforded the royal burial so important to the Pharaohs. The tombs in the Valley of the Kings at Thebes demonstrate how important proper royal burial was to the Pharaohs' successful journey through the Egyptian afterlife. Lack of such burial would have been [seen as] a horrible fate" (note on verses 1-7).

The imagery then changes from that of a mighty, thrashing river beast to that of a weak river plant. God calls Egypt a "staff of reed to the house of Israel" (verse 6)-just as the Assyrians had described it more than a century earlier (see Isaiah 36:6). This is an allusion to Egypt's weakness and unreliability as an ally for the Israelites-as well as the worthlessness and even danger of looking to this nation for protection. When the Israelites lean on Egypt for support, it shatters, leaving them seriously wounded (Ezekiel 29:7).

God says He will bring the sword of warfare on Egypt to lay it waste, showing that He, not the pharaoh, is the one who determines whether the nation exists or not (compare verses 8-9). The devastation would extend across the length of the land, from Migdol in the north (in the eastern delta region) to Syene in the south (modern Aswan) and even down to the border of Nubia in what is today Sudan (verse 10). The prophet Jeremiah later foretells the fall of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar's forces (Jeremiah 43:8-13). And Ezekiel later gives more details of this Babylonian invasion in Ezekiel 29:17-30:19. The prophet placed this other prophecy right after the one we are currently reading because it follows thematically-even though it was given more than 16 years later (compare 29:1, 17).

According to our current reading, the land would remain desolate for 40 years, during which time the Egyptians would be scattered-after which they would be returned to their homeland of Pathros, southern Egypt (verses 11-14). There is no secular confirmation of this period of scattering. Indeed, we would not expect an admission of such a massive defeat in the Egyptian records. However, "a Babylonian chronicle suggests that Egypt was conquered [by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar] around 568 B.C. Forty years after this date, the Persians [having overthrown the Babylonians] instituted a policy of resettlement for many of the peoples who had been dispersed by Babylon" (Nelson Study Bible, note on verse 11). Pharaoh Hophra was executed at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's invasion, not long after a coup by Hophra's own general Amasis or Ahmose, who replaced him as pharaoh. Ahmose (II) remained on the throne as a Babylonian vassal and continued into the Persian period, dying a year before the Persian invasion of Egypt in 525 B.C.

Following its conquest by the Babylonians, Egypt would never again be a superpower empire. This was especially true of the original ethnic Egyptians. More than 200 years later, after Alexander the Great, the land of Egypt did emerge again as an independent power under the Ptolemaic dynasty for three centuries-but, besides the fact that it was nowhere near the great power that Egypt had once been, this was actually a Greek kingdom, not a truly Egyptian one. Afterward, Egypt became a Roman possession and then, centuries later, a province of the Islamic empire. When Egypt became an independent nation in modern times, it was as an Arab, not a true Egyptian, state. The original Egyptians today may be found among the Copts of Egypt and possibly the Gypsies (according to some of their historical traditions)-both of whom are indeed very lowly peoples in geopolitical terms.

In verses 6 and 16, God says that His purpose in punishment is to show the Egyptians that He is God. While some may have come to this conclusion at the time of the Babylonian conquest, or at least to the rejection of their own false gods, including the concept of the pharaoh as divine, the Egyptians as a whole did not forsake their false religion or come to know the true God. It may be, then, that this prophecy of Egypt is dual, with elements of it applying to the end time-just as in the prophecies of judgment on Judah's immediate neighbors in Ezekiel 25, where the purpose of punishment is also repeatedly given as teaching the recipients of God's judgment that He is really God, a fact they will not truly learn until the last days. Like the great majority of other peoples and nations of the region, the inhabitants of Egypt have for centuries been overwhelmingly Muslim, worshipers of Allah. In time they will learn who the true God is. Concerning Egypt of the end time, it is interesting to note that the future king of the North (a revival of Babylon) will invade and subjugate the nation (Daniel 11:40-42). Afterward, Egypt will be delivered under the reign of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 19:20-25)-when the nation will finally come to truly know God and learn of His ways (verse 21).
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I know, you want to use hundreds of words to explain why those words do not mean what they say.
Well, what else should I be doing in providing answers to you, give you "non-explanations"? Would that seem more "rational" to you, Clizby? I mean seriously.

So we are saved by partial works of ourselves? God does the rest?
... the issue here, as I've understood it, isn't revolving around the question of 'how to be saved?,' but rather around the epistemology of what it is to be human and think human thoughts that pertain to our efforts to find plausibility in Christian belief sets.

Why not? Why can Jesus meet Paul directly but not us? Is God playing favorites?
God isn't playing so much a game of favorites since, as Jesus DID say "many are called...," but He did give certain privileges to the earliest disciples that He's not giving folks who came after the first couple of generations of Christians. This is implied in what Jesus says to St. Thomas and in what Paul the Apostle says about 'gifts' passing away.

How much study does one need to believe in God?
I've already answered previously, and here you are asking the same question again? What's up with that, Clizby?

Whether it is one book or not who cares. Can you have the redemption story without all the books?
Yes. The 'books and letters' are reflections and products of people, so all we need are people who can 'tell us' the Gospel. So, it can come orally or in written form.

Really? There is more evidence that big foot exists than for Jesus resurrection. For big foot we have eyewitness accounts who are alive today that we can talk to. We have video of the creature, we have books written about them by the actual eyewitnesses. We have an abundance of sources outside of the eyewitness accounts talking about these sightings. Yet we know that these evidences are not good enough for belief in big foot. We have none of this for the accounts and resurrection of Jesus yet you believe he existed and was raised from the dead which is a more extraordinary claim than big foot exists.
Hardly.

So, some do then right?
It's possible. Why don't you go do some research and find out the extent to which "some" do.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Good, so you have not adopted the subjective morality of today. So there is a objective moral code. G

Can God stop these diseases? Did he create a world where sin and diseases can occur?
He can stop them, yes. He did create the world that allows human agency and free will which produces sin and being biological live forms we can be affected by disease. Sin and disease go hand in hand.

If I stood by and let a child be molested if I had the ability to stop it what would you think about me?
Do you think man is equal to God if God exists as we claim??

Where in the bible are these specifically? Can you trust a prophecy if some prophecies in the Bible are demonstrably false?
Revelations. Yes, I can trust prophecy even though there are prophecies that are taken to be failed when they have duel time frames or have not happened yet in the past.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Well, what else should I be doing in providing answers to you, give you "non-explanations"? Would that seem more "rational" to you, Clizby? I mean seriously.
So you agree then that the words don't mean what they say.

... the issue here, as I've understood it, isn't revolving around the question of 'how to be saved?,' but rather around the epistemology of what it is to be human and think human thoughts that pertain to our efforts to find plausibility in Christian belief sets.
No, I want to know how to be saved. Give me good evidence for how to be saved that is better evidence than other Christians evidence who disagree with you.

God isn't playing so much a game of favorites since, as Jesus DID say "many are called...," but He did give certain privileges to the earliest disciples that He's not giving folks who came after the first couple of generations of Christians. This is implied in what Jesus says to St. Thomas and in what Paul the Apostle says about 'gifts' passing away.
But people claim they do today. God tells people all kinds of things and manifests himself to many people today. At least that is their claims.

I gave you reasons why big foot has better evidence than the resurrection of Jesus. And you just reply "Hardly".
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Good, so you have not adopted the subjective morality of today. So there is a objective moral code. G
No, I have an objective morality based on my subjective goal of well being. You have an objective morality based on your subjective Gods decrees.

He can stop them, yes. He did create the world that allows human agency and free will which produces sin and being biological live forms we can be affected by disease. Sin and disease go hand in hand.
Really? So you are saying that people that are sick is punishment or is the fault of their sin?

Do you think man is equal to God if God exists as we claim??
No, humanist morality is better than gods.

Revelations. Yes, I can trust prophecy even though there are prophecies that are taken to be failed when they have duel time frames or have not happened yet in the past.
The please tell me why the desolation of Egypt that god said would happen in Ezekiel did not happen, and also in Ezekiel why Tyre was not destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar as God said it would?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So you agree then that the words don't mean what they say.
More accurately, I don't think that ALL of the words in the New Testament 'mean' what you think they mean, most especially those pertaining to the issue of the purposes and efficacies of prayer. This isn't to say that my interpretation of the bible is necessarily correct either, since it could be that both you and I are wrong in what we think we are reading.

However, I'm pretty sure that your reading and application of 1 Corinthians 14:33 is incorrect.

No, I want to know how to be saved. Give me good evidence for how to be saved that is better evidence than other Christians evidence who disagree with you.
So, you want to know God's role in the pandemic so ...... you can know how to be saved? That sounds kind on incongruous in intention Clizby. Are you being straight up with me here? Because, if all you want to know is 'how' to be save, I'd just say take the common denominators across the denominations and go with that 'minimal' derivation about Jesus, sin, repentance, and baptism. Done. End of the story. Just do it.

...the thing is, being that you've already been a Christian, I think you already understand the general points of what it takes to 'be saved.'

But people claim they do today. God tells people all kinds of things and manifests himself to many people today. At least that is their claims.
Well, goodie for them. God tells me nothing directly, and anything I claim to understand about Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior comes purely by my engagement with my own existential engagement with the Bible and by reading and listening to other Christians, of a wide variety. If you'll notice, too, because my own approach to the Christian faith is essentialist, I don't feel the need to go around and bash other Christians in other denominations over the head if they happen to disagree with me. No, the worst I'd probably do is say, "Gee, you think I'm deficient in my beliefs? Well, alrighty then! Let's exchange notes then."

I gave you reasons why big foot has better evidence than the resurrection of Jesus. And you just reply "Hardly".
I guess I would define a 'reason' as one that explains some idea or phenomenon rather than just a statement that tells someone, in a single simple sentence, that "such and such X is the case."

'Cuz anybody can simply say, in simple terms, "such and such X is the case." And we both know that doesn't make it true.
 
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Oncedeceived

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No, I have an objective morality based on my subjective goal of well being. You have an objective morality based on your subjective Gods decrees.
So you believe there is absolute morality, yet based on a subjective premise of what you perceive as well being...how does that work exactly?

What are subjective God decrees?

Really? So you are saying that people that are sick is punishment or is the fault of their sin?
Actually it can be either.

No, humanist morality is better than gods.
How do you know humanistic morality is better than God's?

The please tell me why the desolation of Egypt that god said would happen in Ezekiel did not happen, and also in Ezekiel why Tyre was not destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar as God said it would?
Egypt is a duel prophecy. Tell me why so much of the Tyre prophecy is correct when it was written long before it happened?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I've addressed this before. Comparing yourself to God is a bit of a false analogy, I hope your are able to recognize that. The reason that God doesn't stop terrible things from happening is because for some reason that I don't understand, He thought that creating creatures with free will was valuable and worth it.
If God will not explain why he is doing what seems to be immoral things then all I can conclude is that he is immoral. The evidence in the bible points to an immoral God. Is God mysterious or not a God of confusion?

God, by His very nature is omniscient. Us, by our very nature, are not omniscient. We don't know what He knows, we don't see what He sees, we don't see the bigger picture like He does. It basically puts us in a position where we are incapable of judging God accurately.
Who's fault is this? It is God that set up the system the way it is.

Furthermore, if you actually played out what you're suggesting, you're really asking why God doesn't give us a perfect world today. "It would never be enough" is what comes to mind. For example, you like to choose child molestation, so we'll use that. Let's say that every time someone went to molest a child that God caused a bolt of lightning to randomly generate above the person and it struck them, rendering them injured, but not dead.

First off, just imagine a world that looked like that. It would be weird. What's more, it wouldn't bring comfort to people. It would make them question God even more. "Why just molestation!?" people would cry out. People would expect God to stop every kind of wrong. People would expect God to stop every natural disaster, etc etc...
Why not? Why not make a perfect world with people incapable of sin? Instead he made a world where he gives you $2037 while an 8 year old dies of cancer.

God will provide a world without those things, but for some reason, a reason that I don't know and I can't explain, He has chosen to spend a few thousand years to get to that point.
That is a claim without sufficient evidence.


In the 10th year of Ezekiel's captivity, January of 587 B.C., God gives him a prophecy of the downfall of Egypt. The timing here is significant, as this is the period during which Pharaoh Hophra's forces came up to oppose the Babylonians, causing the siege of Jerusalem to be temporarily lifted. In our next reading, we will go through another prophecy of Ezekiel-given a few months later-that alludes to the outcome of this particular conflict and describes the coming fall of Egypt to Babylon. The current reading concerns the latter aspect.

God refers to the Egyptian pharaoh as a great "monster" (NKJV) or "dragon" (KJV) in the midst of his "rivers," saying, "My River is my own" (verse 3). The major "River" of Egypt is of course the Nile-which represented the entire country of Egypt, as the population was concentrated along its length. The "rivers" (plural) likely denote the many branches of the Nile in the northern delta region. The word "monster" is translated from the Hebrew tannim. "The word's meanings and its cognates range from 'jackal' to 'serpent,' 'dragon,' 'sea-monster,' 'monster,' 'crocodile.' In all O[ld] T[estament] contexts where the term is used, a fearful creature is imagined" (Expositor's Bible Commentary, footnote on verse 3). The fearful dragonlike beast of the Nile and its branches-a river-dwelling creature with powerful jaws and thick scales (see verse 4)-is surely the crocodile. "The crocodile god, Sebek [or Sobek], was very important to the Egyptians in the Nile delta area. He was considered Egypt's protector and at times was identified with the solar deity, Re [or Ra] (cf. Diodorus 1.35)" (Expositor's, note on verses 1-7). Recall from Isaiah 30:7 and 51:9 that God referred to Egypt as a monster called "Rahab," meaning "Fierce" or "Violent"-parallel to the Egyptian name Sobek, meaning "Rager" (conjuring images of a fierce crocodile attack).

The pharaoh was identified with Egypt's divine protector. God says the pharaoh considers himself the creator of the Nile (verse 3), meaning, essentially, of all Egypt. Besides being a blasphemous concept of the pharaohs in general, as they promoted themselves as divine incarnations, "this was [a particularly apt description of] Hophra's (Apries') arrogant self-image. [The Greek historian] Herodotus implied that Pharaoh Apries was so strong in his position that he felt no god could dislodge him. In his reign he sent an expedition against Cyprus, besieged and took Gaza (cf. Jer 47:1) and the city of Sidon, was victorious against Tyre by sea, and considered himself master over Palestine and Phoenicia. Such pride was consistent with the denunciation in this message ([Ezekiel 29] v. 3), for the Pharaoh felt that the Nile (Egypt) belonged to him and that he had created it for himself. This arrogance had also shown itself in an attempt to interrupt Babylonia's siege of Jerusalem-an attempt thwarted by God" (note on verses 1-7).

God says He will draw the pharaonic crocodile out with hooks along with all the "fish" clinging to his scales, meaning the Egyptians in general who clung to or followed the pharaoh (verse 4). The pharaoh and his people would be pulled from their position of national strength and left "in the desert" as carrion for the birds and beasts (verse 5, NIV). The Egyptian ruler, at least in a figurative sense, "would not even be afforded the royal burial so important to the Pharaohs. The tombs in the Valley of the Kings at Thebes demonstrate how important proper royal burial was to the Pharaohs' successful journey through the Egyptian afterlife. Lack of such burial would have been [seen as] a horrible fate" (note on verses 1-7).

The imagery then changes from that of a mighty, thrashing river beast to that of a weak river plant. God calls Egypt a "staff of reed to the house of Israel" (verse 6)-just as the Assyrians had described it more than a century earlier (see Isaiah 36:6). This is an allusion to Egypt's weakness and unreliability as an ally for the Israelites-as well as the worthlessness and even danger of looking to this nation for protection. When the Israelites lean on Egypt for support, it shatters, leaving them seriously wounded (Ezekiel 29:7).

God says He will bring the sword of warfare on Egypt to lay it waste, showing that He, not the pharaoh, is the one who determines whether the nation exists or not (compare verses 8-9). The devastation would extend across the length of the land, from Migdol in the north (in the eastern delta region) to Syene in the south (modern Aswan) and even down to the border of Nubia in what is today Sudan (verse 10). The prophet Jeremiah later foretells the fall of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar's forces (Jeremiah 43:8-13). And Ezekiel later gives more details of this Babylonian invasion in Ezekiel 29:17-30:19. The prophet placed this other prophecy right after the one we are currently reading because it follows thematically-even though it was given more than 16 years later (compare 29:1, 17).

According to our current reading, the land would remain desolate for 40 years, during which time the Egyptians would be scattered-after which they would be returned to their homeland of Pathros, southern Egypt (verses 11-14). There is no secular confirmation of this period of scattering. Indeed, we would not expect an admission of such a massive defeat in the Egyptian records. However, "a Babylonian chronicle suggests that Egypt was conquered [by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar] around 568 B.C. Forty years after this date, the Persians [having overthrown the Babylonians] instituted a policy of resettlement for many of the peoples who had been dispersed by Babylon" (Nelson Study Bible, note on verse 11). Pharaoh Hophra was executed at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's invasion, not long after a coup by Hophra's own general Amasis or Ahmose, who replaced him as pharaoh. Ahmose (II) remained on the throne as a Babylonian vassal and continued into the Persian period, dying a year before the Persian invasion of Egypt in 525 B.C.

Following its conquest by the Babylonians, Egypt would never again be a superpower empire. This was especially true of the original ethnic Egyptians. More than 200 years later, after Alexander the Great, the land of Egypt did emerge again as an independent power under the Ptolemaic dynasty for three centuries-but, besides the fact that it was nowhere near the great power that Egypt had once been, this was actually a Greek kingdom, not a truly Egyptian one. Afterward, Egypt became a Roman possession and then, centuries later, a province of the Islamic empire. When Egypt became an independent nation in modern times, it was as an Arab, not a true Egyptian, state. The original Egyptians today may be found among the Copts of Egypt and possibly the Gypsies (according to some of their historical traditions)-both of whom are indeed very lowly peoples in geopolitical terms.

In verses 6 and 16, God says that His purpose in punishment is to show the Egyptians that He is God. While some may have come to this conclusion at the time of the Babylonian conquest, or at least to the rejection of their own false gods, including the concept of the pharaoh as divine, the Egyptians as a whole did not forsake their false religion or come to know the true God. It may be, then, that this prophecy of Egypt is dual, with elements of it applying to the end time-just as in the prophecies of judgment on Judah's immediate neighbors in Ezekiel 25, where the purpose of punishment is also repeatedly given as teaching the recipients of God's judgment that He is really God, a fact they will not truly learn until the last days. Like the great majority of other peoples and nations of the region, the inhabitants of Egypt have for centuries been overwhelmingly Muslim, worshipers of Allah. In time they will learn who the true God is. Concerning Egypt of the end time, it is interesting to note that the future king of the North (a revival of Babylon) will invade and subjugate the nation (Daniel 11:40-42). Afterward, Egypt will be delivered under the reign of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 19:20-25)-when the nation will finally come to truly know God and learn of His ways (verse 21).

Where in this copy and paste does it provide anything but speculation that no person or animal set foot in Egypt for 40 years? The History of Egypt does not show this.

Because you said, ‘The Nile is mine, and I made it,’ therefore, behold, I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Cush. No foot of man shall pass through it, and no foot of beast shall pass through it; it shall be uninhabited forty years. Ez 29:9-12 ESV.

http://bible.ucg.org/bible-commenta...r-40-years,-never-to-be-a-great-empire-again/
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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So you believe there is absolute morality, yet based on a subjective premise of what you perceive as well being...how does that work exactly?
If I have a goal of well being for my morality. That definition is a different conversation. But if that is my goal, then I can objectively compare my actions against that goal or standard. Does killing a person increase the well being of all involved, I can objectively say no.

What are subjective God decrees?
Whatever God subjectively decides is moral. Did God decide what is moral or are the morals part of the universe that he just goes by.

Actually it can be either.
I find blaming a persons sin for their sickness is immoral.

How do you know humanistic morality is better than God's?
Because of my goal of well being. My morality would not let children get molested etc. My morality would not write rules to enslave people. My morals would not force raped women to marry their rapists. Is a morality that allows these things good?

Egypt is a duel prophecy.
What does this mean and why are you justified in claiming this?

Tell me why so much of the Tyre prophecy is correct when it was written long before it happened?
But it is not correct. Isn't prophecy supposed to be 100% correct?
 
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Oncedeceived

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If I have a goal of well being for my morality. That definition is a different conversation. But if that is my goal, then I can objectively compare my actions against that goal or standard. Does killing a person increase the well being of all involved, I can objectively say no.
The definition of what, well being?

Your goal is your subjective definition of said goal which then is subjectively compared to your actions
to that subjective goal...where does objective come in?

Can you think of when a person should be killed that would increase the well being of all others involved? I certain can.


Whatever God subjectively decides is moral. Did God decide what is moral or are the morals part of the universe that he just goes by.
God doesn't decide what is moral, morality is the end result of God's righteousness.

I find blaming a persons sin for their sickness is immoral.
You do? What do you then think of someone that doesn't utilize safe sex and has multitudes of partners and becomes ill with a sexual transmitted disease? Is that immoral that they become sick from their actions?

Because of my goal of well being. My morality would not let children get molested etc. My morality would not write rules to enslave people. My morals would not force raped women to marry their rapists. Is a morality that allows these things good?
There are times in which God gives directives on certain things which are in accordance with mankind's free will, the welfare of His chosen people and mercy to those who find themselves victims of actions taken to serve a purpose. Actions and words have a context from which they arise and simply pointing out several instances without understanding context provides me with to much material to address in a simple manner.

What does this mean and why are you justified in claiming this?
It means there are two events in that prophecy. I justify it, because that occurs in the Bible many times.

But it is not correct. Isn't prophecy supposed to be 100% correct?[/QUOTE]

1. If the prophecy wasn't correct, it would have not gotten into the Bible.
2. History and time, age and elements can have certain gaps as well as changes that could affect what is seen at the time in history. Llater when other elements come into play such as building a new city and the like it might look differently than what transpired at the previous time.

Here is a link that you might find interesting. Tyre in Prophecy
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Your goal is your subjective definition of said goal which then is subjectively compared to your actions
to that subjective goal...where does objective come in?
Nope. If I have a moral goal or standard I can objectively compare my actions to the standard and see if it is moral or not. The goal or standard in subjective. Just like if we agree on the rules of chess which are subjective and both agree the goal is to win the game, then each move can be objectively compared to the the rules of chess to see if it will get us closer to that goal of winning.

Can you think of when a person should be killed that would increase the well being of all others involved? I certain can.
Sure, but those circumstances will be included in the objective assessment. There are no absolute moral actions it is all situational. Killing in one scenario is immoral while killing in another scenario is moral.

God doesn't decide what is moral, morality is the end result of God's righteousness.
How does this work. If it is just who he is then God is not the author of morality.

You do? What do you then think of someone that doesn't utilize safe sex and has multitudes of partners and becomes ill with a sexual transmitted disease? Is that immoral that they become sick from their actions?
It is not moral or immoral, it is a consequence of their actions. This does not fit the context of our conversation. If someone has a genetic illness is that the result of their sin?

There are times in which God gives directives on certain things which are in accordance with mankind's free will, the welfare of His chosen people and mercy to those who find themselves victims of actions taken to serve a purpose. Actions and words have a context from which they arise and simply pointing out several instances without understanding context provides me with to much material to address in a simple manner.
God laid out rules to enslave people, from capturing them from the surrounding tribes, to beating them as long as they don't die within a day or two etc (Ex 21:20-21). God told the Israelite's to own other people as property (LV 25:44-46) . Are these moral?

But it is not correct. Isn't prophecy supposed to be 100% correct?

1. If the prophecy wasn't correct, it would have not gotten into the Bible.[/quote]This is a circular.
2. History and time, age and elements can have certain gaps as well as changes that could affect what is seen at the time in history. Llater when other elements come into play such as building a new city and the like it might look differently than what transpired at the previous time.

Here is a link that you might find interesting. Tyre in Prophecy
Show me evidence that no human or animal walked through Egypt for a 40 year period.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Nope. If I have a moral goal or standard I can objectively compare my actions to the standard and see if it is moral or not. The goal or standard in subjective. Just like if we agree on the rules of chess which are subjective and both agree the goal is to win the game, then each move can be objectively compared to the the rules of chess to see if it will get us closer to that goal of winning.
Hmm, I don't play chess so I guess I must be missing something if the rules are subjective?

Sure, but those circumstances will be included in the objective assessment. There are no absolute moral actions it is all situational. Killing in one scenario is immoral while killing in another scenario is moral.
Right, and we have a very limited knowledge of long term and purposeful situational motivations that could prohibit us from understanding if some action is moral or not.

How does this work. If it is just who he is then God is not the author of morality.
Why not?

It is not moral or immoral, it is a consequence of their actions. This does not fit the context of our conversation. If someone has a genetic illness is that the result of their sin?
A consequence of sin is a consequence of their actions. Same thing. I don't know if a genetic illness is the result of sin, I suppose it could be as is other sickness but I don't know.

God laid out rules to enslave people, from capturing them from the surrounding tribes, to beating them as long as they don't die within a day or two etc (Ex 21:20-21). God told the Israelite's to own other people as property (LV 25:44-46) . Are these moral?
Ok, let's go another route. Let's say that God really is immoral just for argument sake, but He does exist. Are you ok with going to hell for an eternity? Would you rather live in a dark fire which burns you eternally than live with God who you think is less moral than you are? Just curious.



1. If the prophecy wasn't correct, it would have not gotten into the Bible.[/quote]This is a circular.[/Quote] Perhaps, but if it had not have been correct it wouldn't have been included.
Show me evidence that no human or animal walked through Egypt for a 40 year period.
As I said, it is a duel prophecy, it hasn't happened fully yet.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Hmm, I don't play chess so I guess I must be missing something if the rules are subjective?
If we both agree that the rules of chess are what we are playing by then winning is the objective and we can evaluate our moves objectively based on that goal and the rules. The rules of chess are arbitrary and made up. But the moves compared to the goal of winning chess can be evaluated objectively.

Right, and we have a very limited knowledge of long term and purposeful situational motivations that could prohibit us from understanding if some action is moral or not.
That does not preclude us from making an objective moral judgement based on the facts we have. What else can we do?

If God decides what is moral they are subjective. If morality is just who he is somehow then God cannot claim he is moral because God did not choose those morals.

A consequence of sin is a consequence of their actions. Same thing. I don't know if a genetic illness is the result of sin, I suppose it could be as is other sickness but I don't know.
Fair enough.

Ok, let's go another route. Let's say that God really is immoral just for argument sake, but He does exist. Are you ok with going to hell for an eternity? Would you rather live in a dark fire which burns you eternally than live with God who you think is less moral than you are? Just curious.
No, If the God of the bible is demonstrated to be true I would do what I could to stay out of hell. But I could not believe he was good.

1. If the prophecy wasn't correct, it would have not gotten into the Bible.
This is a circular.[/Quote] Perhaps, but if it had not have been correct it wouldn't have been included.
As I said, it is a duel prophecy, it hasn't happened fully yet.[/QUOTE]Circular logic is a logical fallacy.
 
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Oncedeceived

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If we both agree that the rules of chess are what we are playing by then winning is the objective and we can evaluate our moves objectively based on that goal and the rules. The rules of chess are arbitrary and made up. But the moves compared to the goal of winning chess can be evaluated objectively.
Ok.

That does not preclude us from making an objective moral judgement based on the facts we have. What else can we do?
Yet we know from experience that this "based on the facts we have" has created many mistakes and had no reality of truth. Without ALL facts, we can not be certain of totally objective moral assessment. The only one that has ALL the facts would be God.

If God decides what is moral they are subjective. If morality is just who he is somehow then God cannot claim he is moral because God did not choose those morals.
God doesn't decide what is moral, morals arise from righteousness, goodness, mercy and love those are not chosen they exist in the essence of God's Being.

Fair enough.

No, If the God of the bible is demonstrated to be true I would do what I could to stay out of hell. But I could not believe he was good.
The Bible is a tool, there are people who know God but don't know the Bible at all. Knowing God brings one to the understanding of God's goodness.

This is a circular.
Perhaps, but if it had not have been correct it wouldn't have been included.
As I said, it is a duel prophecy, it hasn't happened fully yet.[/QUOTE]
Circular logic is a logical fallacy.
True, not a good argument logically. However, prophets that were not correct were denounced and their prophecy would not be considered worthy to be included.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Yet we know from experience that this "based on the facts we have" has created many mistakes and had no reality of truth. Without ALL facts, we can not be certain of totally objective moral assessment. The only one that has ALL the facts would be God.
We don't need all the facts to make a moral assessment. We make it based on the facts that we have. If you base your actions based on God how do you know what that is? It is interpretation from the bible right?

God doesn't decide what is moral, morals arise from righteousness, goodness, mercy and love those are not chosen they exist in the essence of God's Being.
If so, then god does not get to decide what morals are, they are just properties of its being. So he is not the author of morality, whatever created God is the author then.

The Bible is a tool, there are people who know God but don't know the Bible at all. Knowing God brings one to the understanding of God's goodness.
Everything we know about the gospel message we know from the bible, nowhere else.

For me to believe God is good I must be convinced that allowing cancer in kids, molestation etc is moral.

Perhaps, but if it had not have been correct it wouldn't have been included.
As I said, it is a duel prophecy, it hasn't happened fully yet. True, not a good argument logically. However, prophets that were not correct were denounced and their prophecy would not be considered worthy to be included.
Because you believe everything in the bible is true? Those two prophecies have sufficient evidence against them to believe that they are false. Claiming they are dual or not happened yet does not cut it when Nebuchadnezzar never wiped out Tyre and there has never been a time in Egypt's history where no person or animal set foot. They are demonstrably wrong.
 
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Oncedeceived

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We don't need all the facts to make a moral assessment. We make it based on the facts that we have. If you base your actions based on God how do you know what that is? It is interpretation from the bible right?
Actually, my assessment of God is through both the Bible and through experience. My experience deepens my understanding of who God is and how He acts in my life.

If so, then god does not get to decide what morals are, they are just properties of its being. So he is not the author of morality, whatever created God is the author then.
I thought you said you were a Christian? If that is true I shouldn't have to tell you that God is not a created Being.

Everything we know about the gospel message we know from the bible, nowhere else.
That is not true. We have that, our own experiences and historic documents that give us some insight as well.

For me to believe God is good I must be convinced that allowing cancer in kids, molestation etc is moral.
Why?

Because you believe everything in the bible is true? Those two prophecies have sufficient evidence against them to believe that they are false. Claiming they are dual or not happened yet does not cut it when Nebuchadnezzar never wiped out Tyre and there has never been a time in Egypt's history where no person or animal set foot. They are demonstrably wrong.
On Tyre, did you read the link? It is quite well known that there are duel prophecies.
 
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Oncedeceived

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We don't need all the facts to make a moral assessment. We make it based on the facts that we have. If you base your actions based on God how do you know what that is? It is interpretation from the bible right?
Actually, my assessment of God is through both the Bible and through experience. My experience deepens my understanding of who God is and how He acts in my life.

If so, then god does not get to decide what morals are, they are just properties of its being. So he is not the author of morality, whatever created God is the author then.
I thought you said you were a Christian? If that is true I shouldn't have to tell you that God is not a created Being.

Everything we know about the gospel message we know from the bible, nowhere else.
That is not true. We have that, our own experiences and historic documents that give us some insight as well.

For me to believe God is good I must be convinced that allowing cancer in kids, molestation etc is moral.
Why?

Because you believe everything in the bible is true? Those two prophecies have sufficient evidence against them to believe that they are false. Claiming they are dual or not happened yet does not cut it when Nebuchadnezzar never wiped out Tyre and there has never been a time in Egypt's history where no person or animal set foot. They are demonstrably wrong.
On Tyre, did you read the link? It is quite well known that there are duel prophecies.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Actually, my assessment of God is through both the Bible and through experience. My experience deepens my understanding of who God is and how He acts in my life.
Ok.

I thought you said you were a Christian? If that is true I shouldn't have to tell you that God is not a created Being.
I know that is what is taught. But I thought you guys claim nothing can exist without a creator? In the end if you are saying that Gods morals are just part of God he cannot take credit for that. If god did not decide what morals are then he cannot take credit for them or know if they are absolute.

That is not true. We have that, our own experiences and historic documents that give us some insight as well.
What historic documents confirm the resurrection of Jesus?

Because I think doing nothing while an 8 year old dies of cancer or is molested in morally wrong.

On Tyre, did you read the link? It is quite well known that there are duel prophecies.
It specifically says Nebuchadnezzar was to totally destroy the city, that can be demonstrated to have never happened and he is dead.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Ok.

I know that is what is taught. But I thought you guys claim nothing can exist without a creator? In the end if you are saying that Gods morals are just part of God he cannot take credit for that. If god did not decide what morals are then he cannot take credit for them or know if they are absolute.
If God exists and created the universe as we claim, it stands to reason that God would know.

What historic documents confirm the resurrection of Jesus?
I didn't claim there were.

Because I think doing nothing while an 8 year old dies of cancer or is molested in morally wrong.
You believe that an 8 year old who dies of cancer is a moral issue? Evil exists and evil does evil.

It specifically says Nebuchadnezzar was to totally destroy the city, that can be demonstrated to have never happened and he is dead.
Can it be shown that the city has never been destroyed completely?
 
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