MOVED Controversial Bible massacre game

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

Hi I am doing a game design university subject and I've decided for my "serious" game project it will involve the Bible... my lecturer said I seemed to be respectful and that she approves of my idea.

Title: Epic Bible Massacres

Player experience goal: The player will feel shocked and overwhelmed

Serious purpose: to learn about some of the most shocking passages in the Old Testament.

Target audience: open-minded people who want to learn about controversial parts in the Bible. Including people who are looking for problems in the Bible or want to test their faith.

I think I won't include any blood. The graphics would use stick figures (at least in the prototypes).

So here are the level ideas so far:

2 Kings 2:23-24
Two bears and 42 youths

The prophet Elisha cursed
the youths for teasing him.
Make the bears maul 42 of them.

Judges 15:15-16
Samson vs 1000 men

With a donkey's jawbone,
kill 1000 men

1 Kings 3:4
King Solomon's Sacrifice #1

Kill 1000 animals

1 Kings 8:63 / 2 Chr 7:5
King Solomon's Sacrifice #2

Kill 144,000 animals

Deuteronomy 20:16-17
Invading the promised land

Kill everything that breathes
so they don't lead you astray

I consider myself to be a very liberal Christian. Like some liberal Christians I'm not sure that all of those stories happened as exactly as they are recorded in the Bible.

What do people think? Should this kind of game be banned?

Official site:
Brutal Bible Blood Baths

Richard T · Apr 20, 2020

There is no reason the game would be banned. Whether the game is sending the wrong messages though is highly questionable. Your player experience goal seems too shallow. Why? Because players may get the wrong idea about God. In the bible, these judgements abound with justice and even love. Take the flood in Noah's time for instance, it teaches us so much about God. Here is a link that shows the full picture. 7 Amazing Truths from the Story of Noah (And How It Points Us to Christ) In other word's you have also present these events through the lens of God, something that might be hard to do unless you really seek God and are sincere about learning more of the why these judgements were necessary.

coffee4u · Apr 20, 2020

I am only going to take on the first as this would take far too long.

To start with a don't find anything respectful about the name.

But the first one was not a massacre at all.
/ˈmasəkə/
noun
noun: massacre; plural noun: massacres
Indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of many people.

The text says they were mauled not killed.

Second 'youth's in the Bible may be aged 12 to 30. Just to be sure people don't think this was merely a group of naughty schoolboys calling down insults while sitting on a wall.

This group was most likely a gang of thieves and murders. Bethel was a place of idolatry and rebellion. We know that at least 42 got mauled not how many escaped with no injuries or how many if any died. A very large gang of probably very dangerous young men vs one old prophet is also not a massacre, he may have called upon the bears in self-defence. Imagine yourself surrounded by 42+ threatening gang members and this makes a completely different picture compared to children or even regular teenagers.

"Target audience: open-minded people who want to learn about controversial parts in the Bible"
And you consider yourself enough of a bible scholar to be their teacher? I would tread carefully.
James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Why not make it about epic battles?

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

Richard T said:
There is no reason the game would be banned. Whether the game is sending the wrong messages though is highly questionable. Your player experience goal seems too shallow.

Actually my lecturer thought the game was too ambitious. The focus is on the theory behind the game and making quick and dirty prototypes. Normally the games are meant to be physical games like card or board games, but due to the virus she allowed digital games. Note that "player experience goals" are supposed to be very focused like mine.

Why? Because players may get the wrong idea about God.

I am focusing on some events in the Bible - it is up to the player to research the passages to look further into why these events happened.

In the bible, these judgements abound with justice and even love. Take the flood in Noah's time for instance, it teaches us so much about God. Here is a link that shows the full picture. 7 Amazing Truths from the Story of Noah (And How It Points Us to Christ) In other word's you have also present these events through the lens of God, something that might be hard to do unless you really seek God and are sincere about learning more of the why these judgements were necessary.

I'm not claiming that these events are in their proper context - the idea is to just throw you into the situations with absurd goals.... like killing 144,000 animals, etc.

Richard T · Apr 20, 2020

Ok, I see better that it is an assignment and you cannot complicate it too much. Hope it works out well for you.

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

coffee4u said:
I am only going to take on the first as this would take far too long.

There are only 5 levels and 2 (the sacrifices) are pretty much the same.

To start with a don't find anything respectful about the name.

I think the lecturer meant that I wasn't really making strawmen, etc.

But the first one was not a massacre at all.
/ˈmasəkə/
noun
noun: massacre; plural noun: massacres
Indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of many people.

The text says they were mauled not killed.

Yes I wrote: "Make the bears maul 42 of them"

Surely most of them would have died due to blood loss.... and even if only 10 of them died I think that could be considered a massacre....

Second 'youth's in the Bible may be aged 12 to 30. Just to be sure people don't think this was merely a group of naughty schoolboys calling down insults while sitting on a wall.

Well I said they were "youth" so that doesn't apply to me. On the other hand the KJV says "little children" and some Christians believe that the KJV is the best translation.

This group was most likely a gang of thieves and murders. Bethel was a place of idolatry and rebellion.

"most likely"??? This is my favourite free commentary:
2 Kings Chapter 2
There is no mention that these youths were a gang of "thieves and murderers".

We know that at least 42 got mauled not how many escaped with no injuries or how many if any died. A very large gang of probably very dangerous young men vs one old prophet is also not a massacre, he may have called upon the bears in self-defence.

It seems that Elisha cursed them for teasing him twice - it says nothing about them trying to rob or murder him. So I'm going on what the Bible says and what that commentary says.

Imagine yourself surrounded by 42+ threatening gang members and this makes a completely different picture compared to children or even regular teenagers.

But did 42 deserve to be mauled? Anyway in my game these specifics aren't clarified. Also my level description is meant to be a summary.

"Target audience: open-minded people who want to learn about controversial parts in the Bible"
And you consider yourself enough of a bible scholar to be their teacher? I would tread carefully.

I'm just pointing out some passages that are always ignored in games. I'm not claiming this is a full picture.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

My point is the good guys in the Bible were sometimes responsible for many deaths - and the player gets the experience of this.

Why not make it about epic battles?

Because this hasn't really been done before. I find it to be very interesting and easy to turn into some mini games. This is also easier to program than a battle with thousands of people on each side. Also this involves a more interesting player experience and to be a serious game it needs to have people interested in it - and various people would find it interesting to discover these passages - e.g. my lecturer didn't even believe the 42 youth thing was even in the Bible.

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

BTW for the killing of 1000 and 144,000 animals, I'm not sure who the player character would be.... maybe a priest?

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

@coffee4u

BTW the Columbine "massacre" involved the deaths of 13 other people and that is called a "massacre"... if 30% of the mauled youths died from their wounds then I think that could also be called a massacre.

coffee4u · Apr 20, 2020

JohnClay said:
@coffee4u

BTW the Columbine "massacre" involved the deaths of 13 other people and that is called a "massacre"... if 25% of the mauled youths died from their wounds then I think that could also be called a massacre.

We don't know if they died from the bears or not.

Also it isn't really Elisha that called down the bears, he called and God provided. If God had seen Elisha's request as petty or unreasonable he would not have sent the bears and also since God did send the bears we can't know just how badly mauled or not they were. Were the bear's allowed free reign or perhaps God only allowed them to do so much?

I am suggesting given where they were and the number of youth and because God did send two bears that they were most likely a gang.

I think there is a whole lot more to this story than meets the eye.

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

coffee4u said:
We don't know if they died from the bears or not.

I think it is more likely that at least 30% died from blood loss than "This group was most likely a gang of thieves and murders". Anyway this is just an excuse for a game - it doesn't need to be 100% factual.

Also it isn't really Elisha that called down the bears, he called and God provided.

Here is the level description:

2 Kings 2:23-24
Two bears and 42 youths

The prophet Elisha cursed
the youths for teasing him.
Make the bears maul 42 of them.

So the player is a bear. I don't think I hinted that Elisha wanted the curse to involve bears.

If God had seen Elisha's request as petty or unreasonable he would not have sent the bears and also since God did send the bears we can't know just how badly mauled or not they were. Were the bear's allowed free reign or perhaps God only allowed them to do so much?

Well I find it impressive for 2 bears to maul 42 people... it sounds to me like an exaggeration though in my game it is taken literally.

I am suggesting given where they were and the number of youth and because God did send two bears that they were most likely a gang.

Note that if they were murderers surely many would have a weapon.... and I thought they would be able to kill the bears if they had weapons. But in my game I'm assuming they had no weapons.

I think there is a whole lot more to this story than meets the eye.

Well my game can be a talking point to make people interested in the Bible.

2PhiloVoid · Apr 20, 2020

JohnClay said:
Hi I am doing a game design university subject and I've decided for my "serious" game project it will involve the Bible... my lecturer said I seemed to be respectful and that she approves of my idea.

Title: Epic Bible Massacres

Player experience goal: The player will feel shocked and overwhelmed

Serious purpose: to learn about some of the most shocking passages in the Old Testament.

Target audience: open-minded people who want to learn about controversial parts in the Bible. Including people who are looking for problems in the Bible or want to test their faith.

I think I won't include any blood. The graphics would use stick figures (at least in the prototypes).

So here are the level ideas so far:

I consider myself to be a very liberal Christian. Like some liberal Christians I'm not sure that all of those stories happened as exactly as they are recorded in the Bible.

What do people think? Should this kind of game be banned?

Of course it shouldn't be banned. In fact, I'd encourage it since, after all, it'll require the application of hermeneutics in order for it to have any kind of real cogency. Otherwise, if you're going to play a "game," you might as well be playing The Call of Cthulhu MONOPOLY ...

... 'cuz you'll learn about as much.

Petros2015 · Apr 20, 2020

I'd skip the animal sacrifices, stick with the human deaths but have the player instead click on a figure to X them with the kill method used. Every time they do, have your computer program randomly pick a first and last name for who got X'd and approximate age as near as you can figure. That will give you some impact. Take a look at this at the end when they do something similar and zoom in on the pixels to make them more than just numbers.

I think there are some good angel massacres too - not usually numbered (sodom and Gomorrah) but I know they took out an army at at least one point. Have fun clicking more than 100,000 times
Destroying angel (Bible) - Wikipedia

Also, don't forget 2 Kings 1:1-16, it's my personal favorite.

2 Kings 1 BSB

I can just imagine the 3rd captain of 50 men sent to fetch Elijah for King Ahaziah looking around at all the charcoal briquets from the first 2 captains and their men...

All to get the same answer that Elijah had given Ahaziah before in the first place as to whether he was going to recover and what the reason was.

"No." was the answer lol.

Petros2015 · Apr 20, 2020

Korah's Rebellion and the plague that followed...

Korah - Wikipedia

Numbers 16:1–40 indicates that Korah rebelled against Moses along with 249 co-conspirators and were punished for their rebellion when God sent fire from heaven to consume all 250 of them. Korah's Reubenite accomplices, Dathan and Abiram, were also punished when God caused the ground to split open beneath their feet swallowing them, their families, anyone associated with Korah, and all their possessions.

Furthermore, the Israelites who did not like what had happened to Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) objected to Moses, and God then commanded Moses to depart from the multitude. God then smote 14,700 men with plague, as punishment for objecting to Korah's destruction (Numbers 16:41ff.)

"Notwithstanding, the children of Korah died not" (Numbers 26:11).

David's Census

1 Chronicles 21

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Chronicles 21 - New Living Translation

14 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel, and 70,000 people died as a result. 15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But just as the angel was preparing to destroy it, the Lord relented and said to the death angel, “Stop! That is enough!” At that moment the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Araunah[a] the Jebusite.

Apparently, God doesn't like Census. I guess because he wanted Israel to rely on Him rather than strength of arms.

Or maybe taking a Census isn't a good idea in the middle of a pandemic. America, hint hint.

Petros2015 · Apr 20, 2020

JohnClay said:
Well I find it impressive for 2 bears to maul 42 people

I guess they were very fast bears.
Or maybe it was sort of a bear-curse and they didn't maul them all in the span of an afternoon.
Kinda bear-stalkers. Yikez.

Petros2015 · Apr 20, 2020

Some other fun stuff, some #'s present
==============================

Cannanite King of Arad X (fought against Israel and took some captive, oops)

Numbers 21: 3 The Lord heard the voice of Israel and delivered up the Canaanites; then they [d]utterly destroyed them and their cities. Thus the name of the place was called [e]Hormah.

Israelites X (grumbling about manna, oops)

Numbers 21: 6 The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

Sihon, king of the Amorites X (wouldn't let Israel pass through, oops)

Numbers 21:24 Then Israel [o]struck him with the edge of the sword, and took possession of his land from the Arnon to the Jabbok, as far as the sons of Ammon; for the border of the sons of Ammon was [p]Jazer.

More Amorites in Area of Jazer X (wrong place, wrong time?)

32 Moses sent to spy out Jazer, and they captured its villages and dispossessed the Amorites who were there.

Og the king of Bashan X (33 Then they turned and went up by the way of Bashan, and Og the king of Bashan went out [t]with all his people, for battle at Edrei, oops )

35 So they killed him and his sons and all his people, until there was no remnant left him; and they possessed his land.

Israelities X (messing around with Moab women, oops)

25 1 While Israel remained at [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab.
...
5 So Moses said to the judges of Israel, “Each of you slay his men who have joined themselves to [c]Baal of Peor.”
...
8 and he went after the man of Israel into the [e]tent and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman, through the [f]body. So the plague on the sons of Israel was checked. 9 Those who died by the plague were 24,000.

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
Of course it shouldn't be banned. In fact, I'd encourage it since, after all, it'll require the application of hermeneutics in order for it to have any kind of real cogency.

Well I think the level descriptions give reasons why the massacres occurred (except for Samson vs 1000 men) but I think in the Samson level they might try to fight back.

Otherwise, if you're going to play a "game," you might as well be playing The Call of Cthulhu MONOPOLY ... ... 'cuz you'll learn about as much.

Maybe people, such as my lecturer, hadn't heard of the 42 youths story (and the other stories as well) so people are learning something... they would learn 5 surprising passages - in a game that only lasts a couple of minutes (assuming you give up rather than try to kill 144,000 animals, etc) So anyway my assignment is to make a game and it needs to be simplistic.

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

Petros2015 said:
I'd skip the animal sacrifices,

I think the animal sacrifice levels are interesting... getting the player to kill 1,000 or 144,000 animals... it really fits the "player will feel shocked and overwhelmed" player experience goal. It gives the game some variety which is good in a game yet it still fits the massacre theme.

stick with the human deaths but have the player instead click on a figure to X them with the kill method used.

It would be using a computer with a keyboard or mouse. In many cases you'd have a sword and I was planning on them using the spacebar to attack. I'll see how it goes.

Every time they do, have your computer program randomly pick a first and last name for who got X'd and approximate age as near as you can figure. That will give you some impact. Take a look at this at the end when they do something similar and zoom in on the pixels to make them more than just numbers....

Hi the scope of my game is already enough.... BTW one method I want to make more impact is to have the people in some of the levels run for their lives... so you'd have a bit of trouble chasing them in order to kill them. And when you kill everything that breathes you're meant to kill babies and toddlers, etc.

Tinker Grey · Apr 20, 2020

This is not a topic for Christian Apologetics.

JohnClay · Apr 20, 2020

Tinker Grey said:
This is not a topic for Christian Apologetics.

"A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith."

I think this game can be somewhat challenging to the Christian faith and some posters in this thread are defending this faith.

I was wondering what you think of my game idea? I think it shows problems with the Bible.

Tinker Grey · Apr 20, 2020

JohnClay said:
"A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith."

I think this game can be somewhat challenging to the Christian faith and some posters in this thread are defending this faith.

Your OP is about a game. The game might challenge the Christian faith and provoke defenses; the thread does not. Maybe Ethics and Morality (of making such a game) or the Kitchen Sink for random-ish topics.

MOVED Controversial Bible massacre game

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