If God withholds grace
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I can’t because there’s no place where it says He gave man free will. He does say that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, though.
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Kermos
God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
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No place in scripture does it state that Adam was given a "free will", so Adam did not have a "free will".
You are adding to scripture when you wrote "God gave Adam free will".
Adam's culpability for disobedience remained for thus says the Word of God.
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renniks
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Lol, so salvation is available, but it's not available at all because he withholds the grace from most people that allows it to be available?
What a convoluted mess the gospel according to Calvin is.
God offers salvation to all. Period. He offers grace to all.
The Holy Spirit only takes up residence after salvation, as a multitude of scriptures confirm.
Belief isn't the result of salvation, it's the condition for salvation.
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If you wish to discuss this "multitude of verses", we can. Calvinism provides the simplest and purest form of the Gospel. God does the whole work.
Your assessment of Calvinism assumes worth to the human point of view, that as with humans, so with God. "Salvation is available" but they don't --indeed they cannot --because they WILL not. And so for some reason we want to call it convoluted, and conclude that our notion of possibility is THE fact concerning possibility? But for what it's worth, what I posted concerning availability isn't mainstream Calvinism.
EVEN IF the will is the hinge upon which the matter is decided, the will is INCAPABLE of doing anything valid for God. Apart from Christ it is altogether unworthy and at enmity with God. But Regeneration does not hinge on the integrity of the will. It hinges on the mercy of God.
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So you're saying that God tricked Adam and Eve? They had no choice but to believe the serpent and eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? How could they have made the choice without free will?
The story of the trees in the Garden of Eden is an allegory, demonstrating the difference between faith -- trusting God -- or the lack of it, deciding for yourself what is right and wrong.
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Words seem to be pushing you around. What, after all, does "free will" mean concerning agents bound to natural influences? What motivates and causes may be resisted and reacted to, but that very resistance and reaction are also causes. It is simply logic that says Adam can only do what God plans for him to do.
Yes, God planned for Adam to sin. Without sin, awful as sin is, grace would not have appeared, yet that is the very plan for Creation.
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God planned for Adam (and Eve) to sin?? So what you're saying is that God tricked them into sinning so that he could punish them and the rest of sinful humanity forever? That's not the God that I know and love.
"Without sin, awful as sin is, grace would not have appeared" So God's grace was conditional upon his tricking Adam and Eve. He was holding back His grace -- for what reason? Was God bound to force humanity into sin?
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Dorothy Mae
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Please show me where the Bible says obedience to the living God is unnecessary.
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Kermos
God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
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- Almighty God declares "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10)
- Man at the very beginning is missing attributes that God knew and knows. (John 21:17)
- God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - exposing that God possesses both knowledge and abilityAND God made humankind in the image and according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 1:27)BUT man lacked attributes at the outsetBECAUSE after eating from the tree "the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (Genesis 3:7)WHICH is a radical change from man's prior condition, "the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed" (Genesis 2:25)MOREOVER man lacked additional attributeBECAUSE God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22)YET it is not written that humankind was created/endowed with God's natureCONSEQUENTLY when God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26), God did generously provide for and limit humankind
- God did generously provide attributes for man as well as withhold attributes from manBUT the Word of God expressed man's "act" which was to eat the fruit of the tree (Genesis 3:6, the second portion)WHILE simultaneously the Word is silent about man's "will" in the Creation accountYET Scripture records man's "lust" withWhen the woman saw that the tree was good for food,
and that it was a delight to the eyes,
and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise (Genesis 3:6, the first portion)AND in Genesis 3:6, the first portion precedes the second portionTHUS the "lust" precedes the "act"AND the "act" precedes the punishment (Genesis 3:8-24)THEREFORE the "lust" precedes the punishmentSO the "lust" occurred in man when man's state was between being created and the punishment, that is pre-punishment - God's commands expose man's attribute to "act" or man's attribute not to "act"OR, written another way, God reveals man's ability "to do" something or man's ability "not to do" somethingSO God distinguishes an "act", or actions, within commandsBUT God excludes explicit reference to decision or choice in commandsAND Lord Jesus declared "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart" (Matthew 15:17-18).AND a variety of muscles within the human body act to produce atmospheric vibration which results in sounds that can be interpreted as words then aggragated together into communicationSO when a person speaks, a person actsYET Jesus did not say "when a person decides to speak"NOR did He say "you are able to choose to speak"RATHER Jesus did say "the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart" (Matthew 15:18)THEREFORE a person's heart actsTHUS fruit is producedAND Lord Jesus declared "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:21)AND the Holy Spirit is precious treasure (John 3:3-8, John 16:7-14)AND the Spirit of the Living God produces fruit in us believers - the Spirit of Truth is required for us believers to have good fruit (John 15:5, Galatians 5:22-23)AND Lord Jesus declared "there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil [man] out of the evil [treasure] brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart" (Matthew 6:43-45).SO like Jesus, we believers must do the will of Our Father (Matthew 6:10)FOR we believers are not better than Jesus (Matthew 10:24)AS evidenced by the fact that we believers act in accord with the will of Our Father in heaven by the power of the SpiritNOT stagger to and fro in autonomous "will" which is "self will" as the unrighteous do (Amos 8:12, 2 Peter 2:9-10)BUT the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)
- "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat" is a command of action to refrain and abstain
- "You shall not steal" is a command of action to refrain and abstinence (Exodus 20:15)
- "Seek" is a command of action to execute and engage (Matthew 7:7)
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[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
You are making some severe accusations, which I will not accept. May God have mercy on your soul!
You are making some severe accusations, which I will not accept. May God have mercy on your soul!
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Dorothy Mae
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None of that describes God as saying, “Hey, I’m the epitome of love!!”
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Kermos
God is the Potter, and we are the clay.
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Where is the word "choose" in Genesis 1-3?
Where are the words "free will" in Genesis 1-3?
Self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) unrighteously add "choose" and/or "free will" to Genesis 1-3.
May Lord Jesus open your eyes.
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You might be surprised, as I expect to be, when we see him as he is. He has every right to "trick" them, as you call it. Read the Bible; it has many places where he misleads people on purpose, for a purpose. Read the [hilarious] story of Ahab and the deceitful spirit, all according to God's plan and his causing. There are also places where God purposely hardens their hearts, eg. Isaiah 6:
9 He said, “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”
It could be argued that God uses truth to harden hearts in the way that God proves his very existence only to those to whom he wishes to prove himself, by not using the proof people demand so they can believe without God-given faith (as the devils believe, and tremble). How many people reject the Scriptures and the Gospel because they refuse to consider the obvious --that existence and fact is all the work of God?
You can argue that God himself didn't deceive, but used evil agents for the purpose; ok, then, but did not God plan that? God did it, and we did it to ourselves. So did Adam, and he did it without a pre-existing sinful nature.
I ask you this: If this was not plan A, the whole thing, what reason would God have for Creation as we experience it --why not just make a people outright to love and praise him as the angels do, in Heaven forever with him-- without going through all this mess --this the Atheists argue, not knowing what being one with God is (that God has planned for raising a people for himself above even the Angels).
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Agreed, brother. They would suppose to limit God, claiming God cannot do just anything he decides to do, and what he says outright that he DOES. Nowhere in Scripture does he say he must kiss the filthy rear end of the free will of those at enmity with him in order to save them from their sin. They don't understand grace.
Yet I keep hearing them pray (in a true Reformed fashion at that) that God would change a person, reveal himself to them, bring them to himself, and such. Amazing to me that they would then suppose that man can of his own God-like integrity, make the step of true faith to invite him to take over their very being. NO, the Gospel is the work of God, and we turn as a result, be it ever so simultaneous and, in appearance, by degrees. I have no such integrity of myself. Nor with God's help. My integrity is GOD WITHIN ME.
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God offers His grace to everyone ...
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
It is a free gift (His grace) but once must sincerely receive the gift (His grace) by confessing their sin, asking for forgiveness and repenting for their sin and He helps us do that through His Holy Spirt. If we abide in Him (cling to the gift) he continues His work and His grace abounds.
Grace requires maintenance ;o)
2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.
Can we at any time reject His grace? Yes ... God never forces us to do anything, to do so would be violating our will. We alway have choices ... with Christ working in our lives He will lead us and teach us (through His Word and the Holy Spirit) what the better choices are .... and this is a life-time process.
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Dorothy Mae
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Well where does it say obedience is unnecessary for anything???
I understand the theological loophole relieving believers of the unpleasantries of obedience but I’m not convinced God sees it as an optional extra or that those two are separated.
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